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 Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:24 am
I don't believe baptism is necessary for Christians. It's a ceremony that expresses your outward commitment to follow Christ in front of your faith community. You can make the decision to follow Christ and not be baptized, and it's the same thing. I think it's more an accountability thing than anything.
Basically, it's an outward expression of an inward commitment.
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:32 am
freelance lover I don't believe baptism is necessary for Christians. It's a ceremony that expresses your outward commitment to follow Christ in front of your faith community. You can make the decision to follow Christ and not be baptized, and it's the same thing. I think it's more an accountability thing than anything.
Basically, it's an outward expression of an inward commitment. So if it's not a requirement for Christians to be baptized, then why did Christ, who was sinless and blameless have to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness? And if we as sinners, don't need to be baptized and can still be considered righteous by merely saying we believe in God, how does that work?
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:47 am
Shadows-shine freelance lover I don't believe baptism is necessary for Christians. It's a ceremony that expresses your outward commitment to follow Christ in front of your faith community. You can make the decision to follow Christ and not be baptized, and it's the same thing. I think it's more an accountability thing than anything.
Basically, it's an outward expression of an inward commitment. So if it's not a requirement for Christians to be baptized, then why did Christ, who was sinless and blameless have to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness? And if we as sinners, don't need to be baptized and can still be considered righteous by merely saying we believe in God, how does that work?
I don't think Christ had to be baptized to do what he did. He was clearly divine before baptism, and I think the same things would have come to pass without it. I think he was baptized since John the Baptist was also doing God's work and it was a marker for the beginning of his ministry, but I don't think his divinity was any better or greater after baptism.
As I said, it's a ceremony. Jesus was baptized, and we are because of the symbolic nature of it. Being submerged or sprinkled with water does not make you sinless nor does it forgive your sins. It's an outward expression of your commitment to follow God, especially for those who choose to be baptized/rebaptized when they are older.
I think the most important part of the Christian faith is the relationship with God and striving to live a life pleasing to him. If a person prays frequently, lives a life pleasing to God, gives to charity, and actively makes efforts to do what is right, I don't see how a ceremony will really make their life more or less pleasing to God. As I already said, the ceremony is more of an expression of your commitment to follow God. It's also done in your faith community so that they will support you in your walk with God and keep you accountable.
Basically, I don't see a symbolic ceremony as necessary to live out what the ceremony represents.
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:55 am
Okay concerning Baptism let's look at what the Catechism has to say: Quote: 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. Okay it's necessary but... Quote: 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. So if die doing the what God would expect of his followers and that person hasn't been baptized, they are believed to be baptized. Quote: 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. So again if you die before you get it and you wanted to be baptized then you will be baptized. Quote: 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. So those that live lives that the Church considers holy and they weren't Christian (or Catholic rather razz ), it's possible for them to get into heaven since if they had known the truths of the Church and the necessity of Baptism, they would have of course rolleyes been baptized and joined the Earthly Church. Quote: 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. So infants that die go to heaven. But there's one catch about baptism, Quote: 1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or "seal" by which the Christian shares in Christ's priesthood and is made a member of the Church according to different states and functions. This configuration to Christ and to the Church, brought about by the Spirit, is indelible,40 it remains for ever in the Christian as a positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church. Therefore these sacraments can never be repeated. So once you are baptized, you are YVHV's child forever and will receive whatever judgment he has for you.
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:00 am
freelance lover Shadows-shine freelance lover I don't believe baptism is necessary for Christians. It's a ceremony that expresses your outward commitment to follow Christ in front of your faith community. You can make the decision to follow Christ and not be baptized, and it's the same thing. I think it's more an accountability thing than anything.
Basically, it's an outward expression of an inward commitment. So if it's not a requirement for Christians to be baptized, then why did Christ, who was sinless and blameless have to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness? And if we as sinners, don't need to be baptized and can still be considered righteous by merely saying we believe in God, how does that work?
I don't think Christ had to be baptized to do what he did. He was clearly divine before baptism, and I think the same things would have come to pass without it. I think he was baptized since John the Baptist was also doing God's work and it was a marker for the beginning of his ministry, but I don't think his divinity was any better or greater after baptism.
As I said, it's a ceremony. Jesus was baptized, and we are because of the symbolic nature of it. Being submerged or sprinkled with water does not make you sinless nor does it forgive your sins. It's an outward expression of your commitment to follow God, especially for those who choose to be baptized/rebaptized when they are older.
I think the most important part of the Christian faith is the relationship with God and striving to live a life pleasing to him. If a person prays frequently, lives a life pleasing to God, gives to charity, and actively makes efforts to do what is right, I don't see how a ceremony will really make their life more or less pleasing to God. As I already said, the ceremony is more of an expression of your commitment to follow God. It's also done in your faith community so that they will support you in your walk with God and keep you accountable.
Basically, I don't see a symbolic ceremony as necessary to live out what the ceremony represents. I never said being baptized makes one sinless. Jesus was not just baptized to show support to John's ministry either. He told John, "Suffer it to be done to fulfill all righteousness." So if the most important part of the Christian life is to live a life pleasing to God is the most important thing, then they should obey all the commandments God has set for. He has said that unless some one is born again of water and spirit they cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. That would describing baptism by water and receiving the Holy Ghost. Christ also commanded His apostles to go forth baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Baptism is so much more than just some thing symbolic. It's a covenant that one makes with Christ.
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:01 pm
Baptism is usually more then just splashing water. Don't they also require you to attend church or Sunday school for so long before you can get it? Perhaps, Jesus just wanted them Baptized so they could have a proper god education.
I'm not sure how baptism worked back then, but now a days baptism seems to bind you to a church. I'd rather not tie myself down to a denomination, and I'd also like to continue interpretting the Bible my own way without being told something is the absolute interpretation.
What denomination are all of you, and how do you see baptism? Is it a process of education and commitment to the church or meerly a 15 ritual that can be performed at any time?
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:48 pm
caeruleus5765 Baptism is usually more then just splashing water. Don't they also require you to attend church or Sunday school for so long before you can get it? Perhaps, Jesus just wanted them Baptized so they could have a proper god education. I'm not sure how baptism worked back then, but now a days baptism seems to bind you to a church. I'd rather not tie myself down to a denomination, and I'd also like to continue interpretting the Bible my own way without being told something is the absolute interpretation. What denomination are all of you, and how do you see baptism? Is it a process of education and commitment to the church or meerly a 15 ritual that can be performed at any time? It just depends on the denomination when it comes to their requirements about when one can be baptized and how one is baptized. Baptism, in my religion is seen as a way of making covenants with the Lord. One must be submerged all the way in the water in order for it to be legit. The youngest one can be baptized is the age of 8.
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:24 pm
Shadows-shine freelance lover Shadows-shine freelance lover I don't believe baptism is necessary for Christians. It's a ceremony that expresses your outward commitment to follow Christ in front of your faith community. You can make the decision to follow Christ and not be baptized, and it's the same thing. I think it's more an accountability thing than anything.
Basically, it's an outward expression of an inward commitment. So if it's not a requirement for Christians to be baptized, then why did Christ, who was sinless and blameless have to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness? And if we as sinners, don't need to be baptized and can still be considered righteous by merely saying we believe in God, how does that work?
I don't think Christ had to be baptized to do what he did. He was clearly divine before baptism, and I think the same things would have come to pass without it. I think he was baptized since John the Baptist was also doing God's work and it was a marker for the beginning of his ministry, but I don't think his divinity was any better or greater after baptism.
As I said, it's a ceremony. Jesus was baptized, and we are because of the symbolic nature of it. Being submerged or sprinkled with water does not make you sinless nor does it forgive your sins. It's an outward expression of your commitment to follow God, especially for those who choose to be baptized/rebaptized when they are older.
I think the most important part of the Christian faith is the relationship with God and striving to live a life pleasing to him. If a person prays frequently, lives a life pleasing to God, gives to charity, and actively makes efforts to do what is right, I don't see how a ceremony will really make their life more or less pleasing to God. As I already said, the ceremony is more of an expression of your commitment to follow God. It's also done in your faith community so that they will support you in your walk with God and keep you accountable.
Basically, I don't see a symbolic ceremony as necessary to live out what the ceremony represents. I never said being baptized makes one sinless. Jesus was not just baptized to show support to John's ministry either. He told John, "Suffer it to be done to fulfill all righteousness." So if the most important part of the Christian life is to live a life pleasing to God is the most important thing, then they should obey all the commandments God has set for. He has said that unless some one is born again of water and spirit they cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. That would describing baptism by water and receiving the Holy Ghost. Christ also commanded His apostles to go forth baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Baptism is so much more than just some thing symbolic. It's a covenant that one makes with Christ.
I don't see how having that specific ceremony makes a person's choice to follow God any more valid. I'm not saying baptism is bad or that it's nothing but a frivolous ceremony. I'm saying that while it's strongly recommended, it's not necessary.
@caeruleus: I'm United Methodist. I was baptized in the seventh grade when I went through confirmation, since I hadn't been already. Methodism believes in infant baptism, but we'll baptize pretty much anyone who desires the ceremony. I personally liked choosing to be baptized because it made me feel that I had found my faith on my own. I had a bunch of classes, but they were specifically for confirmation rather than baptism.
The baptism ceremony is different in my church depending on who's being baptized. If it's an infant, the family makes a pledge to raise the child in a Christian home and then the congregation promises to support the child in their walk with God as they grow. If it's an adult, they are asked to confirm their belief in God and commitment to follow him and then the congregation makes a similar pledge to support them.
Methodists are generally a sprinklers, but we submerge from time to time, depending on the location (some people are baptized in lakes, etc.)
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:16 pm
freelance lover Shadows-shine freelance lover Shadows-shine freelance lover I don't believe baptism is necessary for Christians. It's a ceremony that expresses your outward commitment to follow Christ in front of your faith community. You can make the decision to follow Christ and not be baptized, and it's the same thing. I think it's more an accountability thing than anything.
Basically, it's an outward expression of an inward commitment. So if it's not a requirement for Christians to be baptized, then why did Christ, who was sinless and blameless have to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness? And if we as sinners, don't need to be baptized and can still be considered righteous by merely saying we believe in God, how does that work?
I don't think Christ had to be baptized to do what he did. He was clearly divine before baptism, and I think the same things would have come to pass without it. I think he was baptized since John the Baptist was also doing God's work and it was a marker for the beginning of his ministry, but I don't think his divinity was any better or greater after baptism.
As I said, it's a ceremony. Jesus was baptized, and we are because of the symbolic nature of it. Being submerged or sprinkled with water does not make you sinless nor does it forgive your sins. It's an outward expression of your commitment to follow God, especially for those who choose to be baptized/rebaptized when they are older.
I think the most important part of the Christian faith is the relationship with God and striving to live a life pleasing to him. If a person prays frequently, lives a life pleasing to God, gives to charity, and actively makes efforts to do what is right, I don't see how a ceremony will really make their life more or less pleasing to God. As I already said, the ceremony is more of an expression of your commitment to follow God. It's also done in your faith community so that they will support you in your walk with God and keep you accountable.
Basically, I don't see a symbolic ceremony as necessary to live out what the ceremony represents. I never said being baptized makes one sinless. Jesus was not just baptized to show support to John's ministry either. He told John, "Suffer it to be done to fulfill all righteousness." So if the most important part of the Christian life is to live a life pleasing to God is the most important thing, then they should obey all the commandments God has set for. He has said that unless some one is born again of water and spirit they cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. That would describing baptism by water and receiving the Holy Ghost. Christ also commanded His apostles to go forth baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Baptism is so much more than just some thing symbolic. It's a covenant that one makes with Christ.
I don't see how having that specific ceremony makes a person's choice to follow God any more valid. I'm not saying baptism is bad or that it's nothing but a frivolous ceremony. I'm saying that while it's strongly recommended, it's not necessary.
@caeruleus: I'm United Methodist. I was baptized in the seventh grade when I went through confirmation, since I hadn't been already. Methodism believes in infant baptism, but we'll baptize pretty much anyone who desires the ceremony. I personally liked choosing to be baptized because it made me feel that I had found my faith on my own. I had a bunch of classes, but they were specifically for confirmation rather than baptism.
The baptism ceremony is different in my church depending on who's being baptized. If it's an infant, the family makes a pledge to raise the child in a Christian home and then the congregation promises to support the child in their walk with God as they grow. If it's an adult, they are asked to confirm their belief in God and commitment to follow him and then the congregation makes a similar pledge to support them.
Methodists are generally a sprinklers, but we submerge from time to time, depending on the location (some people are baptized in lakes, etc.)What was the point of Christ being baptized? If it's not necessary, then what's the point of Him, who is sinless, to do that?
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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:58 pm
freelance lover Shadows-shine freelance lover Shadows-shine freelance lover I don't believe baptism is necessary for Christians. It's a ceremony that expresses your outward commitment to follow Christ in front of your faith community. You can make the decision to follow Christ and not be baptized, and it's the same thing. I think it's more an accountability thing than anything.
Basically, it's an outward expression of an inward commitment. So if it's not a requirement for Christians to be baptized, then why did Christ, who was sinless and blameless have to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness? And if we as sinners, don't need to be baptized and can still be considered righteous by merely saying we believe in God, how does that work?
I don't think Christ had to be baptized to do what he did. He was clearly divine before baptism, and I think the same things would have come to pass without it. I think he was baptized since John the Baptist was also doing God's work and it was a marker for the beginning of his ministry, but I don't think his divinity was any better or greater after baptism.
As I said, it's a ceremony. Jesus was baptized, and we are because of the symbolic nature of it. Being submerged or sprinkled with water does not make you sinless nor does it forgive your sins. It's an outward expression of your commitment to follow God, especially for those who choose to be baptized/rebaptized when they are older.
I think the most important part of the Christian faith is the relationship with God and striving to live a life pleasing to him. If a person prays frequently, lives a life pleasing to God, gives to charity, and actively makes efforts to do what is right, I don't see how a ceremony will really make their life more or less pleasing to God. As I already said, the ceremony is more of an expression of your commitment to follow God. It's also done in your faith community so that they will support you in your walk with God and keep you accountable.
Basically, I don't see a symbolic ceremony as necessary to live out what the ceremony represents. I never said being baptized makes one sinless. Jesus was not just baptized to show support to John's ministry either. He told John, "Suffer it to be done to fulfill all righteousness." So if the most important part of the Christian life is to live a life pleasing to God is the most important thing, then they should obey all the commandments God has set for. He has said that unless some one is born again of water and spirit they cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. That would describing baptism by water and receiving the Holy Ghost. Christ also commanded His apostles to go forth baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Baptism is so much more than just some thing symbolic. It's a covenant that one makes with Christ.
I don't see how having that specific ceremony makes a person's choice to follow God any more valid. I'm not saying baptism is bad or that it's nothing but a frivolous ceremony. I'm saying that while it's strongly recommended, it's not necessary.
@caeruleus: I'm United Methodist. I was baptized in the seventh grade when I went through confirmation, since I hadn't been already. Methodism believes in infant baptism, but we'll baptize pretty much anyone who desires the ceremony. I personally liked choosing to be baptized because it made me feel that I had found my faith on my own. I had a bunch of classes, but they were specifically for confirmation rather than baptism.
The baptism ceremony is different in my church depending on who's being baptized. If it's an infant, the family makes a pledge to raise the child in a Christian home and then the congregation promises to support the child in their walk with God as they grow. If it's an adult, they are asked to confirm their belief in God and commitment to follow him and then the congregation makes a similar pledge to support them.
Methodists are generally a sprinklers, but we submerge from time to time, depending on the location (some people are baptized in lakes, etc.)Baptism is more than just a ritual to show your faith! It is a requirement. It's in the Bible. I will cite verses if I must. It's not just an option. Christ gave the commandment Himself and all His apostles went around spreading that word and obeying it.
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:57 am
I think Jesus was baptized for a reason. I think it helped affirm both his divinity as well as that the message John was preaching was in fact from God. I think it also kicked off his ministry quite nicely and helped establish his divinity to others ("This is my son and I am pleased" etc.) I think is was a necessary step in Jesus ministry, but I don't think it altered his divinity or connection to God, since there's evidence of him being divine prior to baptism (virgin birth, teaching in the temple, etc.)
Perhaps I should explain WHY I don't think it's necessary. I have a fundamental problem with the idea of a person who believes and accept God being damned to hell simply because they never came in contact with some water that was blessed by a clergy member in a particular ceremony. I don't think having that particular ceremony alters or validates a person's relationship with God. I think baptism is a good idea for people who are serious about being Christian, because not only does it act as an accountability device, but it also has a strong psychological impact that comes along with any ceremony, religious or otherwise. However, there are people who don't feel comfortable in organized religion or who are not accepted by their local congregations, and therefore are unable to be baptized.
Also, infant baptism always just... confuses me. The child hasn't accept Christ, they were brought there by their parents and were dunked in some water. I dunno, I'm not against it, I just feel adult baptism is better since it's their choice and not something forced upon them by their family.
I just cannot believe in baptism as being a requirement because the idea of people who had a strong relationship with God who were never baptized going to hell is contrary to my understand of a loving and accepting God.
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:18 am
I personally do not think it is. I was baptised and I'm not christian. Needless to say I was baptised when I was a baby. I'm not baptising my children. It just kind of confused me. We wash ourselves everydau, hopefully, but when a priest pours water over your head you are cleaned? Or something. I don't know.
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:52 pm
It all depends on the sect and denomination and branch of Christianity.
The Anabaptist branch of Christianity (Mennonites, Hutterites, Amish, etc) all believe that one must be baptised. However, they believe that one must be fully educated and must full understand the faith before they get baptized. That's why Anabaptist children don't get baptised until they're adults, because that way they aren't forced to become Anabaptist Christians.
Anabaptist means "Adult Baptism".
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:23 pm
freelance lover I think Jesus was baptized for a reason. I think it helped affirm both his divinity as well as that the message John was preaching was in fact from God. I think it also kicked off his ministry quite nicely and helped establish his divinity to others ("This is my son and I am pleased" etc.) I think is was a necessary step in Jesus ministry, but I don't think it altered his divinity or connection to God, since there's evidence of him being divine prior to baptism (virgin birth, teaching in the temple, etc.)
Perhaps I should explain WHY I don't think it's necessary. I have a fundamental problem with the idea of a person who believes and accept God being damned to hell simply because they never came in contact with some water that was blessed by a clergy member in a particular ceremony. I don't think having that particular ceremony alters or validates a person's relationship with God. I think baptism is a good idea for people who are serious about being Christian, because not only does it act as an accountability device, but it also has a strong psychological impact that comes along with any ceremony, religious or otherwise. However, there are people who don't feel comfortable in organized religion or who are not accepted by their local congregations, and therefore are unable to be baptized.
Also, infant baptism always just... confuses me. The child hasn't accept Christ, they were brought there by their parents and were dunked in some water. I dunno, I'm not against it, I just feel adult baptism is better since it's their choice and not something forced upon them by their family.
I just cannot believe in baptism as being a requirement because the idea of people who had a strong relationship with God who were never baptized going to hell is contrary to my understand of a loving and accepting God. This is why the LDS do vicarious baptisms for the dead. Because it is a commandment of Christ.
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Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:13 am
What the washing away of original sin means in Catholicism:
You were born because your parents had sex.
This is why it is important to baptize babies and why it is so tragic when an infant dies before it is baptized--those children are definitely in hell.
I... have never been baptized. My grandparents raised my sister and I through our younger years, and they taught us all the really staunch catholic rules (they STILL have terrifying bloody jesuses everywhere and a candleglass with a picture of the Virgin Mother standing on a hill of dead babies looking down kinda going "awuh") XD But my mum was like "NO PEDESTAL BATH FOR YOU YOU'LL CATCH PNEUMONIA" or something.
So I'm *definitely* going to hell. Free ticket to do whatever I want, really. /kidding
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