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 Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:43 pm
Dragonbait stressed Xi ... Baptists are Protestant. You're about as Protestant as you can get, 'cause Baptists'll protest anything. xp Yeah, I know, bad joke, but it looked to me like a joke was needed there. Actually, I guess it can be argued they came from protestant movement, and some baptist groups came from anabaptists. I don't know a whole lot about the latter, but they believed in baptism by immersion once saved rather than baptism as a baby. And I also didn't say we were absolutely not protestants. As we've discussed many times before, baptism is not a part of salvation as some denominations of catholics believe. You're right though, we'll "protest" anything that's worth protesting. Roman catholics also believe that they are already saved because Jesus died, and there is no need to "accept Christ into your heart."
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:25 pm
Tryan I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular, just so y'all know... Like I said, i just don't wanna see fighting and such. I think the 'pray to Mary' and such doesn't mean pray to them like we mean when we say we are praying to God - It's my understanding that it's kind of a failure of the English language. You would be praying 'to' Mary in the same sense as you talk to other living people. I think in this context, it's just another way to say you are talking to that person, but the word talking implies either 1) they're alive or 2) you are crazy (social conotation), where as to pray means they have left this world, but you can still 'talk' to them... Because we can both pray and talk to God, and when we pray to Him it can be like what I just described (same as talking), but it's also more because He's the creator and He's the one that answers our prayers and stuff... Am I even making any sense? Let me try again real quick - say Mary was standing in front of us, we would say we are going to talk to her. But since she's not, we would say we were going to pray to her, but it essentially is the same thing - the words and expectations are the same. *looks over at the resident subject matter experts for their imput* I could be mistaken, but I believe that definition of "pray" went out of vogue around five hundred years ago. Oh, I still find it when I'm reading medieval stuff ("I pray thee, Sire, show mercy, and we will pay the tax ... "), but that's it. And ... look, I'm not trying to insult Catholicism or any Catholics who read this, but ... talking to someone you know to be dead -- and, indeed, asking them for help -- is just a little too close to necromancy for my tastes. I don't know, maybe I'm misunderstanding things ... I sure as blazes hope I'm misunderstanding things ... Xi ... I think you got that one wrong. I mean the part about believing they're saved just 'cause Jesus died. I mean, following that, if Jesus death and resurrection automatically meant everyone on earth was going to Heaven (which is how I read your statement), there'd be no point to the Catholic church collecting worshippers, and no point to anybody worshipping. Make sense?
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:18 pm
Dragonbait Xiterrose Everyone sees things differently. I'm baptist, so not exactly protestant either. I take other doctrines with a grain of salt. However, I must say, I have yet to see any Biblical evidence of purgatory. Unless you consider life as such! Xi ... Baptists are Protestant. You're about as Protestant as you can get, 'cause Baptists'll protest anything. xp You have no idea how much this made me lawl. XD
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:59 pm
'Bait: O.O ACK! Xi' made me a member of the crew and I almost accidentaly edited instead of quoted you! that would have been... really awkward...
I decided to keep it safe - no more quoting for me for a bit...
But yeah, I hadn't really thought of that, but you are right. And people thought I was old fashioned for using words like ornery. sweatdrop They'd call me crazy if they could hear the way I think...
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:11 am
Tryan 'Bait: O.O ACK! Xi' made me a member of the crew and I almost accidentaly edited instead of quoted you! that would have been... really awkward... I decided to keep it safe - no more quoting for me for a bit... But yeah, I hadn't really thought of that, but you are right. And people thought I was old fashioned for using words like ornery. sweatdrop They'd call me crazy if they could hear the way I think... Yah, I heard about your promotion; congratulations. Don't worry about the edit business, Tryan; happens to me all the time. Besides, you lot don't have to listen to my accent, let alone my normal vocabulary. I confuse everybody. Natsumi ... *bows.* Glad to provide entertainment. And ... I know I shouldn't do this ... I mean, this is a cheap shot, and I'm normally better than that, but ... I gotta, just so this post will have some connection to the original subject. 
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:04 am
Dragonbait Tryan 'Bait: O.O ACK! Xi' made me a member of the crew and I almost accidentaly edited instead of quoted you! that would have been... really awkward... I decided to keep it safe - no more quoting for me for a bit... But yeah, I hadn't really thought of that, but you are right. And people thought I was old fashioned for using words like ornery. sweatdrop They'd call me crazy if they could hear the way I think... Yah, I heard about your promotion; congratulations. Don't worry about the edit business, Tryan; happens to me all the time. Besides, you lot don't have to listen to my accent, let alone my normal vocabulary. I confuse everybody. Natsumi ... *bows.* Glad to provide entertainment. And ... I know I shouldn't do this ... I mean, this is a cheap shot, and I'm normally better than that, but ... I gotta, just so this post will have some connection to the original subject. *Giggles.* What does your accent sound like? eek Dragonbait I think you got that one wrong. I mean the part about believing they're saved just 'cause Jesus died. I mean, following that, if Jesus death and resurrection automatically meant everyone on earth was going to Heaven (which is how I read your statement), there'd be no point to the Catholic church collecting worshipers, and no point to anybody worshiping. Make sense? I see your point. It could be that there are some people who feel guilty if they do not attend church and so attend a church that their parents attended. It could also be that they desire to attend the Catholic church in order to somehow live better lives or feel better about themselves. But those examples are of people drawing closer to the Catholic church. It could be that those in the Catholic church also want people to live better lives overall too. Though, I'm not Catholic, so these are mainly guesses. sweatdrop Could anyone "set the record straight" in this area or they're delete my post if needed? Xiterrose: I have also heard that Catholics believe that too. *Has a feeling that the information is from the same source.* Tryan: Yes. Congratulations on your promotion. ^^ We need all the suggestions possible. Also, don't forget to check out the "Crew Office" subforum from time to time. Thank you for talking about Catholicism, you guys. It is definitely clearing up a few things for me.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:42 pm
Thanks! *feels all warm and fuzzy inside* razz
Hmm... well... I don't really know what to say now, I seem to have lost anything that might resemble a train of thought regarding any of this... it may have something to do with being unable to stay awake for more than an hour or two at a time since I went to bed last night... *has litterally slept like, 16 hours today for no apparent reason*
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:50 pm
xd I'd never thought about it that way. I just feel like the soul lives forever and heaven is outside of time; as such, I feel like the people who loved me on earth still watch over me. I think it's more self-centered than crazy.
I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that Catholics don't believe you have to accept Jesus into your heart, Xi. Pretty sure the hell homilies would be a lot less sobering if that was the case.
Sorry I can't in depth respond, I am having weird health issues but I intend to do a better response tomorrow.
xd at the vow of poverty. I always found that funny. I mean, it's true that he doesn't actually own anything and his personal room is supposedly really sparse, but he's the fanciest hobo ever.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:12 pm
Actually, 'Bait, I am right, although I know not all Catholics believe that. I have talked to some Roman Catholics who do believe they are saved just because Christ died and they just "need to believe", but haven't officially accepted.
I get the idea from talking to some about it, Lyme.
Although, I can kind of understand where Catholics believe they talk to the dead Christians and "ask them to pray." Afterall, Paul did refer to dead Christians as being asleep. But, technically they're dead in our world. So, either talking to someone that's sleeping or talking to a corpse. xp
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:26 pm
Xiterrose Actually, 'Bait, I am right, although I know not all Catholics believe that. I have talked to some Roman Catholics who do believe they are saved just because Christ died and they just "need to believe", but haven't officially accepted. I get the idea from talking to some about it, Lyme. Although, I can kind of understand where Catholics believe they talk to the dead Christians and "ask them to pray." Afterall, Paul did refer to dead Christians as being asleep. But, technically they're dead in our world. So, either talking to someone that's sleeping or talking to a corpse. xp Except that I've talked to Baptists who believe the same thing. In fact, I've talked to a lot of Christians who believe the same thing. They have argued that the Catholic Church's official teaching that you need to repent is wrong and judgmental because just believing is enough and basically use it as a get out of hell free card to sin, say, "OH it's a sin but I believe," and it is irritating because I think they're signing their own death warrants by justifying it away like that. It's entirely against Church teaching, though.
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:42 pm
That is true, and you're right, it is against the Christian teaching. In Jude, it talks about that matter. Salvation and grace are not licenses of immorality, basically.
Anyone who says they can sin just because they believe is not a Christian, whether that person claims to be Catholic, Baptist, or otherwise. It directly goes against God's Word.
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:42 am
To all: So, it sounds like this "He died, that's enough" garbage is a fairly universal belief among people who just plain don't know any better. It's got nothing to do with Protestant, Catholic, etc. It's not an official teaching of anybody (except maybe Satan, who'll tell us any sort of lies), so it's not really something we can use as a point against any group. Thus, for this topic, it's a moot point.
To Lyme: Thank you! I'm glad at least one Catholic present wasn't offended by that, since it was meant in good humor ... well, I meant it that way, at any rate. I can't speak for whoever made it, of course. But there's a lot of pictures along those lines at that site.
To Vondra: Try to imagine a Scottish Jew who's been in New York for too long, and is now living in Mississippi. No, I'm not Scots, nor Jewish, though I've visited both New York and Mississippi. I just sound strange.
To Tryan: Try No-Doz, and wash it down with a Jolt Cola. xp
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:00 pm
Okay. More in depth.
Prayers to saints, including Mary, are prayers of intercession. You pray to them to pray for you. Certain saints are associated with different things and humans have a tendency to feel an affinity for people they can relate to, and there are a million different prayers out there to different saints to pray for you. I find that focusing on what the saints did helps me to face particular trials. When I am praying for strength to do what God asks of me when it seems impossible, the very thought of what Mary did and how much faith she had really helps me to put things in perspective.
Xi: The belief in purgatory comes from the Apocrypha. The same goes with prayers for the dead and prayers of intercession. I think a lot of Protestant Bibles now include those in the front or back but still keep it distinguished from the rest of the Bible as not being canon? I'm not entirely clear on that, but my parents weren't thinking about it and got me a KJV for school and fortunately they're in there or I would've had a hard time with some of my religion projects. I just had to flip to the front, and it made it a little more difficult to memorize the order of the OT.
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:22 pm
Actually, Lyme, the only time I find the Apocrypha in "Protestant" Bibles are when the Bibles in question are (A) older than dirt, and (B) giant formal Bibles, like "family" Bibles or pulpit Bibles. They're usually omitted completely from most "daily-use" Bibles these days.
For the record, I also own a New World Translation (that is, the Jehovah's Witness Bible), and a Mormon copy of the King James. The Apocrypha's omitted from those as well. Of course, I've no idea what the Greek Orthodox think of the Apocrypha.
BUT ... yes, for a while, they were included, usually wedged as a group between the Old and New Testaments. From what I understand, they're generally considered to be valid literature from before Jesus, but not divinely inspired (as you said, not canon).
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:02 pm
Dragonbait Actually, Lyme, the only time I find the Apocrypha in "Protestant" Bibles are when the Bibles in question are (A) older than dirt, and (B) giant formal Bibles, like "family" Bibles or pulpit Bibles. They're usually omitted completely from most "daily-use" Bibles these days. For the record, I also own a New World Translation (that is, the Jehovah's Witness Bible), and a Mormon copy of the King James. The Apocrypha's omitted from those as well. Of course, I've no idea what the Greek Orthodox think of the Apocrypha. BUT ... yes, for a while, they were included, usually wedged as a group between the Old and New Testaments. From what I understand, they're generally considered to be valid literature from before Jesus, but not divinely inspired (as you said, not canon). Don't have a lot of time, I'll post more later, but...... The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox do have the apocrypha. There are very slight variations of a couple of few books, but otherwise they include those books as well.
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