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Garchomp: Uber or OU? {CLOSED} Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2 3 ... 4 5 [>] [»|]

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Garchomp: Uber or OU?
Uber
54%
 54%  [ 20 ]
OU
45%
 45%  [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 37


Luther Olathes

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:01 pm


The final tier list for the Battle Tower will be posted. My vote was for it to be on the OU. It's a glass cannon. Sure, it's the fastest of the top Dragons, but it also has the lowest defences. So, as has already been stated, a good Ice move and it's down for the count.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:30 pm


Keep in mind its not just Ice... weak defences can be annhilated.
Personally, I won't vote until crew discussion. I wanna see where this goes.

Nitrox Dragon
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Industrial Kat

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:33 pm


Luther Olathes
The final tier list for the Battle Tower will be posted. My vote was for it to be on the OU. It's a glass cannon. Sure, it's the fastest of the top Dragons, but it also has the lowest defences. So, as has already been stated, a good Ice move and it's down for the count.


That thing has better overall defenses than Swampert. While the cuad-ice weakness helps getting rid of it... yache berry. Garchomp quite simply HAS NO COUNTER. A counter can get in on a Pokémon with little to no risk an easily kill it or force a switch. Not even in Ubers we can find a reliable counter. More importantly, since that newbie favorite went to Ubers, the OU list expanded considerably, making the game way less centralized... and less tedious for that matter; I was sick of always killing Weaviles, Starmies and Mamoswines supposedly chosen to keep Garchomp at bay.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:18 pm


Sid is right. On many points. The inflation on the OU list has grown, be it because of Garchomp alone, or other reasons. Although it may be a glass cannon we have to think of other things to. Unless you have a Pokemon that can prove a threat and survive the switch by out speeding Garchomp on the second turn and killing it in one shot without missing than it is probable that he cant be beat. Mostly because it is hard to find a Pokemon with good defense along with the speed. I guess a good Gyrados with dragon dance might be able to take him, depending on how well trained they both are.

da burner123


Koishii X

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:41 pm


Queen Melethia Dagon
Garchomp should have NEVER gone to uber. I still don't know why it got put there. It still has that 4x weakness to ice like Salemence and Dragonite do. It stats are about the same as the other Psudo-legendaries.


Garchomp does not belong in OU either :/ You CANNOT compare Salamence/Dragonite with Garchomp, that's just not right. Garchomp does have a 4x weakness to ice, yes, but if you look compare the stats of Salamence/Dragonite to Garchomp, you will notice a varying difference. Garchomp has more base HP than that of Salamence and Dragonite. Garchomp's defense is much better than Salamence/Dragonite, therefore the use of Yache Berry negates an OHKO from many ice attacks.

Garchomp's base speed outspeeds almost/or half of the OU tier :/ You do not find that broken?

Garchomp@Yache Berry
Jolly - 252 Attack/252 Spd
Sand Veil

Dragon Claw/Outrage
Earthquake
Swords Dance
Fire Fang

Most Garchomp will come in on Blissey's T-Wave, and this will grant it the chance to successfully set up its Swords Dance. You should note that SD Earthquake OHKOs majority of the tier :/
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:07 pm


I'd also like to add one small point- with Koishii X bringing up the very real threat of SD Chomp, I'd also like to point back to what I'd said earlier about Sand Veil.

With Sand support, the likelihood of a Focus Sash-carrying Chomp counter surviving is slim to none; Steel and Rock types will take heavy damage from an SD Earthquake and may survive one more turn, but none of those types carry moves that can effectively take out Garchomp with that one turn they've bought.

Mamoswine, the lone exception of a reliable Focus Sash counter that's immune to Sandstorm, will die the next turn since the Yache Berry normally allows for Garchomp's survival, assuming it's being attacked with Ice Shard. The only way for Mamoswine to come out on top at this point was if it was running an Avalanche set- and even then, it's relatively ineffective.

Assuming the Mamoswine was at full Attack (Adamant, 252 Attack, 31 IV) and Garchomp was running with full Defense capabilities with Jolly (Jolly, 252 Def, 31 IV), it's true that Garchomp would die with an Avalanche. Even if Garchomp was to fall, however, that leaves Mamoswine out on the field with no stat bonuses, 1 HP, and an abysmal Speed stat that's begging for a quick revenge kill.

A Mamoswine running Ice Shard would need to hit min. Def (Jolly, 0 EV, 0 IV) Garchomp twice AND get lucky with it, at which point it's still left at 1 HP by the time the dust settles.

At that point, however, one begs the question as to why there would be such a dedicated (and still relatively ineffective!) counter to just ONE species of Pokémon, since most Mamo sets will spurn the use of Focus Sash in favor of Life Orb or Leftovers.

80% accuracy for Avalanche or Ice Shard means that you're more likely to hit rapid-fire with Fire Blasts than take down Garchomp with either of the aforementioned moves.

KuraiKitty


Hoboerik

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:40 pm


You should include his resistance to stealth rock as a pro.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:18 am


I will admit that Garchomp doesn't have a good reliable counter, but isn't scizor in the same category? Also to note, last time I checked Smogon's OU list, it wasn't inflated, many of the borderline pokes got dumped to UU status as well as Latias being the only poke to be put into OU.

To get back on to topic, I do believed that Garchomp is one of the most devastating pokemons in the Metagame, but I feel he is quite manageable. Most of the problem that everyone seems to have problems with is when he is properly set up. Aside from the typical counters, I am surprised everyone else has neglected the notion of changing the weathers effects. (Aside from acid rain in platinum, but that is beside the point. ninja ) Sure sand-stream is more ramped due to both Hippowdon and Tyranitar, but that is not going without stating that many pokemon have access to either rain dance, sunny day or both. Physical Defensive sets for Suicune and Cresselia are both examples that can come in during the weather problems and change the set up in your teams favor.

Also to point out, I do agree that before garchomp was moved in tiers, everyone had to carry a pokemon just to counter it, but isn't that the case with alot of our pokemon to begin with? (Example Straight up Physical Sweeper for blissey, heatran for Scizor, Etc?

The bottom line I am trying to point out is that I feel that everyone else is too stuck up on set ups, when most of these can be undone, if not skewed to work in your favor. I believe Garchomp is OU.

Cormini
Captain


Koishii X

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:41 am


Cormini
I will admit that Garchomp doesn't have a good reliable counter, but isn't scizor in the same category? Also to note, last time I checked Smogon's OU list, it wasn't inflated, many of the borderline pokes got dumped to UU status as well as Latias being the only poke to be put into OU.

To get back on to topic, I do believed that Garchomp is one of the most devastating pokemons in the Metagame, but I feel he is quite manageable. Most of the problem that everyone seems to have problems with is when he is properly set up. Aside from the typical counters, I am surprised everyone else has neglected the notion of changing the weathers effects. (Aside from acid rain in platinum, but that is beside the point. ninja ) Sure sand-stream is more ramped due to both Hippowdon and Tyranitar, but that is not going without stating that many pokemon have access to either rain dance, sunny day or both. Physical Defensive sets for Suicune and Cresselia are both examples that can come in during the weather problems and change the set up in your teams favor.

Also to point out, I do agree that before garchomp was moved in tiers, everyone had to carry a pokemon just to counter it, but isn't that the case with alot of our pokemon to begin with? (Example Straight up Physical Sweeper for blissey, heatran for Scizor, Etc?

The bottom line I am trying to point out is that I feel that everyone else is too stuck up on set ups, when most of these can be undone, if not skewed to work in your favor. I believe Garchomp is OU.


Scizor is quite easy to take down :/ I've never once had a problem with him. ScarfJirachi Fire Punch, Zapdos, Skarmory, just about any Pokemon that can resist his STABed Bullet Punch will do.

As for your Garchomp statement, you need to explain a little more as to why you think Garchomp is OU :/ Sand Veil isn't the only problem with Garchomp. Most WILL change the weather effect, but that does not stop the havoc Garchomp will pose. The only viable solution to stop Garchomp from winning the game is to use a Rain Dance team which in its own very broken <_<

I usually win 1/3 battles against Rain Dance teams.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:11 am


No... It reall yjust depends on the style of the trainer in most situations. Garchomp isn't a strategic Dragon, its more 'set-up. Rape everything in my way" Theres tons of ways to stop it from setting up, but most people let the dragon set-up, then cry when he obliterates your team.
I grew up with Dragons where I stay, and since Garchomp happened to be on my side, I never had to face this problem against it unless over wifi.(which wasn't difficult) Tons of my friends have wiped out my Garchomp without breaking a sweat, Im more tactical so I'd stop or erase his SD bonuses and then go from there, hence status inflicting, annoying, etc. almost every team carries a status inducer these days, Ive run into a couple of hazers myself. Thats 1 of the quickest ways to get rid of it too.

I don't think he should be thrown into the Uber tier because people are afraid of facing them as Cormini said. Hes not the beastiest pokemon in the metagame or anything close. He CAN be taken down, quick, fast, and in a hurry if you will.
My vote is still OU.

Yoh Asakura26


KuraiKitty

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:15 am


Cormini
I will admit that Garchomp doesn't have a good reliable counter, but isn't scizor in the same category? Also to note, last time I checked Smogon's OU list, it wasn't inflated, many of the borderline pokes got dumped to UU status as well as Latias being the only poke to be put into OU.

To get back on to topic, I do believed that Garchomp is one of the most devastating pokemons in the Metagame, but I feel he is quite manageable. Most of the problem that everyone seems to have problems with is when he is properly set up. Aside from the typical counters, I am surprised everyone else has neglected the notion of changing the weathers effects. (Aside from acid rain in platinum, but that is beside the point. ninja ) Sure sand-stream is more ramped due to both Hippowdon and Tyranitar, but that is not going without stating that many pokemon have access to either rain dance, sunny day or both. Physical Defensive sets for Suicune and Cresselia are both examples that can come in during the weather problems and change the set up in your teams favor.

Also to point out, I do agree that before garchomp was moved in tiers, everyone had to carry a pokemon just to counter it, but isn't that the case with alot of our pokemon to begin with? (Example Straight up Physical Sweeper for blissey, heatran for Scizor, Etc?

The bottom line I am trying to point out is that I feel that everyone else is too stuck up on set ups, when most of these can be undone, if not skewed to work in your favor. I believe Garchomp is OU.


Scizor also has huge problems with getting walled by aforementioned Heatran, in addition to Charizard, Lanturn (x4 Resist), and Empoleon (x4 Resist). It's not hard to take him out with a Sp. Attack barrage, whether it be with STAB Surf from Lanturn or Empoleon (who can also setup the SubPetaya set) or STAB Flamethrowers or Fire Punches.

Physical Sweepers aren't solely dedicated to stopping Blissey, which makes the prior point moot- most are targeted at most Pokémon with low Defense. A good example of a versatile one would be Infernape, who wouldn't only carry Fighting-type moves; while it may carry Close Combat to wipe out Blissey, most would also carry Thunderpunch to take out the likes of BulkyGyara.

While I hate to disagree, to say that Physical Sweepers are dedicated to stopping Blissey is as asinine as saying that Special Sweepers are only in the game to stop Skarmory. There are many ways to take those two out, but very few can take out Garchomp and emerge with some semblance of health.

To address the weather, of course it can change. But along those lines, do we really want an over-prevalence of Weather teams designed to take out Sandstorm Garchomp? ._.''

I'd like weather teams to remain a novelty, but that's just me.



---

Yoh Asakura26
No... It reall yjust depends on the style of the trainer in most situations. Garchomp isn't a strategic Dragon, its more 'set-up. Rape everything in my way" Theres tons of ways to stop it from setting up, but most people let the dragon set-up, then cry when he obliterates your team.
I grew up with Dragons where I stay, and since Garchomp happened to be on my side, I never had to face this problem against it unless over wifi.(which wasn't difficult) Tons of my friends have wiped out my Garchomp without breaking a sweat, Im more tactical so I'd stop or erase his SD bonuses and then go from there, hence status inflicting, annoying, etc. almost every team carries a status inducer these days, Ive run into a couple of hazers myself. Thats 1 of the quickest ways to get rid of it too.

I don't think he should be thrown into the Uber tier because people are afraid of facing them as Cormini said. Hes not the beastiest pokemon in the metagame or anything close. He CAN be taken down, quick, fast, and in a hurry if you will.
My vote is still OU.

A smart Garchomp player will switch into something that it can force out, be it with a strong move or a sheer type disadvantage. Provided that the controller of Garchomp knows what they're doing, setting up generally shouldn't be a problem as the opponent either hits it with a move that won't kill it or switches out to throw a counter onto the field.

Fast hazer? That leaves... right. Crobat.

ONE hazer that's fast enough to take out a Garchomp's setup, and it'll die the next turn anyway, with its defenses as feeble as they are. In addition, with no Super-Effective attacks in its arsenal besides HP Ice or Dragon, again one has to wonder why there's only one hazer capable of stopping a Garchomp SD rampage.

With the notion of Status Conditions, I'd like to also bring forward his inherent immunity to Thunder Wave and the sheer difficulty one has to overcome to hit Garchomp with a crippling status condition. With only Gengar, Rapidash, Infernape, and Mismagius able to run a Will-o-Wisp that will be consistently faster than Garchomp, the opposing team is (again) forced to throw a move into their set just for Garchomp.

Along those lines, said Will-o-Wisp users have no Ice moves (save Gengar's Move Tutor Ice Punch, though it shouldn't be running a Physical move to begin with) besides Hidden Power, which still leaves them relatively useless against a tank that still runs with normal Attack after an SD + Will-o-Wisp.

Sandstorm Chomps are even harder to hit with a burn, leaving opponents with a 55% chance of Burning the beast- chances are they won't get a second chance, either, especially since that gamble can easily lead to a second SD to counteract the Burn effects.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:45 am


Well a pokemon doesn't have to outspeed the Garchomp just to do what it needs. If that was the case, all that should happen is to have a superior wall vs. Garchomp. It takes the hit, then throws back with it's own status move, or haze at that. And I did state in my earlier post, "almost every team carries a status inducer these days" So theres no need to equip Gengar with a W.o.w just to be faster. And I've seen more Mismagius carry w.o.w in their moveset than any other random move.

Yoh Asakura26


KuraiKitty

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:56 am


Precisely- the status-inducing counter has to live.

SD Outrage and Earthquake aren't easy to shrug off, even with the most dedicated of walls.

Keep in mind the accuracy of Will-o-wisp, as well- 75% base, 55% accuracy with Sand Veil.

I haven't heard of a reliable status-inducing counter that can actually do super-effective damage to take down the Dragon while assuring its survival. Give me a tank that can survive SD Outrage AND Earthquake, tell me what status it can inflict with what move, and tell me what the chances are that it will survive the next turn and if it has an ability that can actually finish the Chomp off without dying, itself.

After all, a wall that's just meant to Status and die isn't a wall at all. It's meant to last.

In addition, you need to give me a reason why Garchomp couldn't just spend the next turn using SD again to bring it back up to its previously threatening stats, especially if said wall doesn't have Super-effective attacks to deter it.

It's a tall order. Nigh impossible, I'd say.

Mods/Guild Captain: If you'd like me to stop posting, do let me know at any point.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:58 am


The only reliable counter to SD Garchomp I know is a Choice Band Weavile. An Adamant Choice Band Ice Punch will always OHKO a Garchomp (taking a Yache Berry into account). The only problem is Weavile is rather frail.

Hoboerik

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