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 Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:03 pm
i like burnination chessiejo C.S. Lewis in The Great Debate proposes the thought that heaven is "more real" than earth or hell; it is so real that blades of grass there will cut the feet of newcomers who are not prepared for its ultra-reality. you mean The Great Divorce? wink sorry! yes i did mean that. did you read it? did you like it? i thought the satire of the bishop who would rather debate ideas than experience heaven was hilarious! but it does fit in with this topic, because some of those people just could not bring themselves to give up the flaws that held them to their shadow-state, even when others went out of their way to help them.
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:55 am
chessiejo i like burnination chessiejo C.S. Lewis in The Great Debate proposes the thought that heaven is "more real" than earth or hell; it is so real that blades of grass there will cut the feet of newcomers who are not prepared for its ultra-reality. you mean The Great Divorce? wink sorry! yes i did mean that. did you read it? did you like it? i thought the satire of the bishop who would rather debate ideas than experience heaven was hilarious! but it does fit in with this topic, because some of those people just could not bring themselves to give up the flaws that held them to their shadow-state, even when others went out of their way to help them. i think it's an interesting viewpoint. i've always liked it when C.S. Lewis wrote that the door of Hell is locked from the inside rather than outside. and of course the two kinds of people who at the end will either say to God "Thy will be done" or will have "Thy will be done" said to them.
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:09 am
elizabethtomboy Good point on somethings but I think you might have it a little twisted up. When you're in heaven you don't have the same things on earth. When you're married you say "until death do us part", which is true. When you're in heaven you aren't married anymore. I can see were you get confused, because you think that when you're in heaven you remember people that are in hell, but you don't. People in hell will remember you and see you have a fun time, but when you're in heaven you won't remember them and won't see how bad a time they are having down there. This is only so that you don't feel bad about having them being down there and so that you can praise God with happiness instead of having a bad time. *If for any reason you don't get this or don't agree with this, please remember that this is what I was told, and what I believe, and that you do not have too.* You do realize with that God would be taking away part of our freedom of will if true. In my opinion I believe that heaven is so overwhelming that we no longer care. To say that were true would be to call our God inconsistent as I see it. Unless you can point out where God takes freedoms away in the bible, though all the freedoms I've seen taken away were punishment from sin. Heaven is anything but a punishment.
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:33 pm
All of our concepts of Hell come from the Apocalyptic sect of the early second century, most specifically, a scripture that was canon for a few decades called the Apocalypse of Peter: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsepeter-roberts.html
This was an enormously popular scripture that survived well into the middle ages, and was preached from nearly every pulpit in Christianity. It does not, however, jive with the Gospels.
First off; consider....what is the purpose of punishment, if not correction? If punishment is for correction, how could it possibly be eternal? If eternal, it is not punishment, but torture. If torture, then it is evil, and God being a just God would jump in feet first!
Rather look to the example of punishment that Jesus handed to the adulteress---go, and sin no more.
And from a pure Gnostic standpoint; Hell is the absence of God, and is called "outer darkness" where an evil soul is dissolved.
He called out, saying: "Whoever has ears to hear about the infinities, let him hear!"; and "I have addressed those who are awake." Still he continued and said: "Everything that came from the perishable will perish, since it came from the perishable. But whatever came from imperishableness does not perish but becomes imperishable. So, many men went astray because they had not known this difference and they died." ~ Sophia of Jesus
An additional scripture: I said to him, "Lord, the souls of those who did not do these works (but) on whom the power and Spirit descended, (will they be rejected?" He answered and said to me, "If) the Spirit (descended upon them), they will in any case be saved, and they will change (for the better). For the power will descend on every man, for without it no one can stand. And after they are born, then, when the Spirit of life increases and the power comes and strengthens that soul, no one can lead it astray with works of evil. But those on whom the counterfeit spirit descends are drawn by him and they go astray."
And I said, "Lord, where will the souls of these go when they have come out of their flesh?" And he smiled and said to me, "The soul in which the power will become stronger than the counterfeit spirit, is strong and it flees from evil and, through the intervention of the incorruptible one, it is saved, and it is taken up to the rest of the aeons."
And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved." ~ Secret John
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:43 am
Ok, I pretty much don't believe in hell, but Ill give out just my opinion.
Okay here are my questions, if a person was sent to hell or wherever to endure eternal punishment. Then someone who truly cared about them was sent to a Paradise called heaven where the Bible says there will be no sin, no sorrow, or pain. How could that be? I mean if someones husband who was a good man by human standards ended up in hell while the wife was in heaven, and they had really truly cared, loved, one another how would she not be sad? The Bible says you'll have all your answers in heaven so she wouldn't have forgotten about it. I asked my pastor and he said he thought it might be that we just saw the full extent to their sins and would know they belonged there or something along those lines. But the Bible also says we're all born sinners so wouldn't that be saying we'd see their sins as worse than ours? And isn't the Bible supposed to teach us forgiveness? When I really care about someone I can forgive even the worst crimes they've committed, so why would that be different?
First of all, my bible's called the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. If you got a King James or a revised bible, you might have a different view than me. By my viewpoint, I shall state, that hell or hades doesnt exist. The bible I have doesnt talk about hell being an eternal burning realm, cause it's something that other people would believe as a conclusion to death. So you've heard alot of Greek Mythology and crap, but it doesnt have much association with the bible. The people once didnt believe or worship Zeus, or kneel before Hades for mercy. What I believe in's that, the bible has all the answers mankind needs right now, and has already, and when you commend to them, god can determine what your heart is, and whether you deserve to live forever. It also states, that when you die, your whole mind and body fuctions begin to terminate, and you have non-consciousness, like a eternal sleep. And also, Jehovah doesnt want his creations to be burned in hell, since 1. If I were to burn my own creations, it would waste my time and effort 2. He wouldnt be a fair god, that he wants everyone of his creations to live and follow him. Those who dont cant see the real truth. So, there can be no answer to whether someone should be forgiven or not, or be punished. Only Jehovah can determine their fate.
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