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 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:33 pm
Vasilius Konstantinos rmcdra Vasilius Konstantinos In the Acts of the Apostles yes the Holy Spirit burst open doors, caused what some would call chaos and utterings which in turn made many look upon the Apostles and the Disciples as "drunkards". The flame was a testament of the Holy Spirit's arrival, as has been taught by the Early Church Fathers. The tongues, not utterings of some spiritual language as what is practiced today were actual spoken languages many nearby were able to understand as a testimony of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Other than this I could understand exactly how my comment earlier would be misunderstood. Emotionalism, which has been shown to be the case for today is rampant, and needs to be examined. Many people, myself included came from a Pentecostal Evangelical Spiriti-Filled background. I was also a licensed Minister who preached a Full Gospel ministry aplying the Gifts of the Spirit, raising hands and uttering in a spiritual language, and I am awitness firsthand that this is not the Holy Spirit but an emotional outpouring; though sincere it is not the Holy Spirit. The Ascetic Monastics, who would glow with a bright hue while in prayer, documented that the Holy Spirit would come upon them softly and gently, like a soft, gentle morning dew. This is one example of non-emotionalism that shows us the Holy Spirit working in people's lives. Even in some Gnostic circles I knew in Southern California they would seek out a non-emotional practice of prayer and worship. Asceticism was praised among the Gnostic circles abroad. I think some things should be defined to help clarify things. I understand where you're coming from on your argument but Gho raise some good points. How can one tell the difference between the false spirit, as my tradition calls it, and the Holy Spirit? I do know the standard answer is that you'll know and while true, it doesn't explain a lot could you try to put it in to words if possible? Why do you believe that rituals in the Pentecostal Church, and similar churches, cannot bring the Holy Spirit into an individual? While I do know that a stillness of mind is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit, why do the rituals of the Pentecostal Church and churches with similar rituals, not bring the stillness necessary to see the Light or at least feel that connection with everything, the Lower Sophia? Well the standard answer would not apply either. The case is simple: we have documentation and experiences of Theosis through the Church for close to two thousand years, and a Monastic Practice for over seventeen hundred years which has brought forth multiple amounts of wisdom for those who seek to experience God in His fullness. All of a sudden some people start creating mutterings and sounds, then calling upon a "Heavenly Language" which is vomited out during services in some communities and now that's the Charismatic Movement and the Holy Spirit. This Movement has only been around in strength for one century- some mutter about one hundred fifty years.Now God has changed his approaches to suit the people? We change to His will, not vice~versa. Now here is where we are probably going to have to agree to disagree. To say that one practice is the only method to bring about a the same experience would be a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Yes I do believe and know that Theosis is valid method of coming to know of God and ultimately in union with Him, but to limit the experience to one method would be a limit to God and how he reveals himself to people. Now personally I do not find that the methods of the Charismatic Movement and personally do not find it to bring me closer to God, but if one is able have an experience that brings one to know of truths about God for example that God is Light and Agape, then though the methods may not work for people like ourselves, they bring one to know of God and possibly in union with Him. I'm not saying that Theosis should be thrown out or changed but it is just one method known without dispute to bring one to know of and in union with God.
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Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:01 pm
I have to ask, do you know what Theosis is? Please look it up and read it, not from Wiki but from an Orthodox Ascetic Site or at least a Monastic source. Theosis is not just one way, but its THE doorway to achieving union with God with many directions to do so. Its not one key but the door itself. Oddly tongues is not part of Theosis but was used to uplift and strngthen mankind and was not a rung on the ladder to Divine Ascension.
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Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:00 pm
Vasilius Konstantinos I have to ask, do you know what Theosis is? Please look it up and read it, not from Wiki but from an Orthodox Ascetic Site or at least a Monastic source. Theosis is not just one way, but its THE doorway to achieving union with God with many directions to do so. Its not one key but the door itself. Oddly tongues is not part of Theosis but was used to uplift and strngthen mankind and was not a rung on the ladder to Divine Ascension. i was impressed with that theme after reading Gregory of Nyssa, and some of the Desert fathers. it is an impressive and compelling goal. it reminds me of the scene at the end of H. Hesse's Journey To the East, where the narrator is contemplating a burning candle; one side of the candle is molded in the narrator's image, and the other in the image of a Jesus figure. as the narrator's image melts and becomes obscure, the other image grows and becomes more clear. the narrator reminds himself of the words of john the baptist: "He must grow; i must diminish."
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Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:24 pm
St. Gregory of Nyssa is incredible. His works on the Eucharistis Mystery is profound.
ANother Saint I am fond of and whom I just received his writing is St. John Climacus and the Ladder of Divine Ascent. Its an incredible work which has really drawn me closer towards God, and yet I still find myself being driven away by musings around me. This is the struggle of the Ascetic, well I am nowhere near and ascetic but I desire the zeal.
Kyrie Eleison
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Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:26 pm
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Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:35 pm
http://orthodoxwiki.org/John_ClimacusSt. John Climacus is also known as St. John of the Ladder, due to his work, the Ladder of Divine Ascent. He was a monk who lived at the foot of Mt. Sinai and was a deep ascetic. Just look him up on Orthodox sites and they should give you more info.
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Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:14 am
so i'll bet Kierkegaard was familiar with his writing!
that would be cool, linking to the past like that.
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:47 pm
My first Christian teaching was in very Legalistic churches. Fortunatly that time was short. Jesus was just my Savior. My fire insurance. I never read my Bible and believed that if I was "good enough" I would make it to Heaven. Because of a totally unrelated event the Holy Spirit came upon me in a way that I didn't even know could be possible and yes I did begin to speak in tongues (when I had never even heard of them before), but beyond that Jesus suddenly became my Lord, I suddenly knew the truth of Scripture I had never even read, and I began to hear from my Father on a regular basis. That experience changed my walk into an absolutely unshakable faith overnight because it became a relationship.
Since then it has been my experience to see that most legalists have the same dry faith and are down on those with religious experiences. They fail to see that the "letter of the law" is death.
Yes without a doubt there are abuses in Charismatic Churches and Pentecostal churches just as there are heavy hands who neglect the message of Grace in traditional legalistic churches. But that doesnt make all of it bad. If it was Satan would have no reason to counterfeit it.
I believe that our "experiences" with God very much imitates the pattern of the temple. We enter His Gates with thanksgiving , His Courts with Praise, We use the blood in repentance and only then do we enter the Holy Of Holies were we are silent in His presence.
So there is a place for all of it.
I find it interesting that David (who knew his God) got so carried away with "emotionalism" that he danced naked through the streets. God called him a man after His own heart. His wife on the other hand made fun of his actions because they didn't fall within her beliefs or what she knew of God.....and she was barren.
I don't know about you......but I want to be a Christian after God's heart....no matter how foolish I might look to others.
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:42 am
rmcdra One of the big things I think that modern Christianity lacks is experiential understanding of their religion. I mean Christianity is a religion, not a philosophy. I find it quite foolish when I hear people say I don't have a religion, its my faith, which is true but at the same time the people who say this have no clue what that means. There is supernatural s**t that cannot be explained within it, and no I am not taking about Jesus toast. I'm talking about supernatural stuff that truly humbles an individual and makes them know of what the Scriptures mean. The Scriptures and rituals have a deeper meaning than just the words and actions. It's sad that much of the rituals are reduced to mere symbolism, which on some levels it is but the rituals are more than just that. They were designed with the intention of bringing an experiential understanding of what God is. Also the distrust of looking inward is also something I see as a failing. We can't trust looking inward because it will make us prey to Satan, WTF, seriously? Even without the Gnostic Texts, the Bible does say that we are to look inward to find the Kingdom of Heaven. For it is written: Luke 17:20-21 20Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst." Religion is supposed to help a person develop spiritually and come to a better understanding of themselves and the world in which they live but empty words and empty actions cannot do that. I had a small conversation with my Bible Study group on this very topic. Spirituality (or Faith) without religion is more "dangerous", for lack of a better word, than with religion. The Bible gives a documented history and framework for what followers of Christianity should become. To have faith without a sense of heritage or tradition makes one open to many things, good and bad, and it is left to one's own discernment what then is "good" or "bad", which only leads to chaos. Christianity doesn't only call people to have a strong faith in God, but to commune, worship and pray together. This is a true heaven on Earth. Faith alone isn't enough (as is noted several times throughout Scripture); if you aren't helping lost people find their way to God, healing those who are in need, all the faith in the world means nothing. And if you are "spiritual" but not "religious", then there is no repercussion should you choose to neglect your neighbor and place yourself on your high spiritual pedestal [Insert parable of Good Samaritan here]. Everything needs a foundation. You don't build a house starting with the roof. As for "looking inward", I have heard that many times from various family members, including my mother, about alleged dangers. One falls prey to Satan only if one allows it, and trust me, he isn't going to wait for a moment when you're sitting in silence alone. He comes at us from all sides at all times, tirelessly. If anything, turning inward is profoundly helpful in connecting with God. We already do that to a certain level when we pray--we focus our attention on matters that we want to bring to God and our minds are nowhere else but on Him. Also, we spend nearly every waking moment with our minds and hearts all reaching outward to the world around us. Just like the body needs sleep after a day of activity, the soul needs to rest within itself after reaching out to others. I've been getting into the habit of meditating and it has a profoundly positive effect on my ability to interact and react, and overall I simply feel closer to the Divine. (To Mom: I still worship God). P.S. Love that passage from Luke. So true. Everything around us is a creation of God. This is his kingdom, albeit on a physical plane.
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