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Reply Supernatural Steampunk (tales of ghosts & magic)
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Okay Bad Example

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:39 am


This thread got me to thinking, what if Nicolai Tesla and Aleister Crowley had worked together?

The notion chills me to the very marrow...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:21 am


Elliot Vidal
Sidnay
Who spoke such ridiculous things? Steampunk is all about the removal of the mundane and logical.
Not to mention, the last time I checked, we are allowed to do whatever we damn-heck-butt please with our imaginations as far as steampunk is concerned.
Steampunk and magic is nothing like putting two wet cats into a bag. It more like putting chocolate into pancakes; it makes perfect sense and them delicious. Without magic, steampunk is boring.
Send such fools my way, and I will give them a lesson in not being mediocre thinkers.

What?!?

I must surely disagree here, Steampunk is most definately not about the removal of logic. Steampunk is all about the Science! The rampant, rampant progress of Science, and what it could acheive in fantastic proportions. And magic has always been something of an anethema to science, being what is unexplained versus the explained. Yes, you can mix them in the same setting as a Steampunk fantasy, or a fantasy setting with Steampunk bits thrown in, such as the gnomes in WoW and Arcanum, but those are predominately about the fantasy, and in fantasy most anything goes. But Steampunk on its own requires nothing of magic, only science. Damn-heck-butt imaginative science, I'll grant you; that is what it is about; but we need no magic. In a way, magic would render it all worthless. With magic, why would anyone bother to toil for years making a giant robot when a wizard or whoever could remove it from existance in an instant (provided he is powerful enough of course)?

But to say its boring without magic. What? Have you ever read any of Verne's, Shelley's and Wells' books? Are they boring? I think not. Were they boring this genre we call Srteampunk would never have existed, surely. And I can think of many great Steampunk endeavors that have not a hint of magic, such as Steamboy, Wild Wild West, Pax Brittania, Mortal Engines, Henry Hatsowrth and so forth, films, books and games. Soem freakish and aberrant science I shall admit, but no magic, and they are not boring in the least.

You may prefer yourself to dabble in the Steampunk fantasy end of the spectrum that is Steampunk, but I myself am a purist. But, having said that and voiced my opinion, I can accept your own as your own, even if I may diagree fervently with it. But please, in future, do not go referring to our camp as mediocre thinkers, or else you shall surely become very much of a mediocre person yourself, closeted in your views.
Steampunk is not about science, IMO, but a 'what if'. It answers questions about an era that never was. So, asking thyself 'What if back in the victorian eras technology advanced rather rapidly and magic existed?' is just as valid.

Steampunk technology is hand-wavium, unexplainable fun. Just as magic is hocus-pocus fun. To me, both science and magic are indistinguishable. True, that golem may be destroyed by a spell, but when a human creates an A-bomb, science goes up in the Power scale, and it's up to the spellcasters to create a stronger spell. The possibilites of adding magic to a steampunk setting are very varied.

Besides, a Man vs Nature theme would fit well with Steampunk, as many are usually engineers, inventors, etc, and are kinda defying nature to prove themselves.

What is Aether in Steampunk? It's an unexplainable substance, if it IS a substance. It powers tools, weapons, etc. It transfers information (Aetherweb). It does things that are hard to explain with science. Does Aether not fit into the magic category?

While magic is not needed fer Steampunk to work, it adds flair, expands on what is already a solid setting.

Besides, any sufficiently advanced technology is as powerful and versatile as magic. So science=magic in some cases.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:29 am


Elliot Vidal
Captain Amaranth
Duly noted; although I can think of many, many more steampunk works which don't contain magic.


Not only counter-examples, but also Iron Kingdoms and Arcanum are both steampunk/fantasy games. And games have always been liberal with genres, liking to sprawl across many at a time at their leisure. I like the settings though i must say, but as fantasy ones with Steampunk aspects in them.

Another though: If, instead of referring to steampunk wirh magical elements as steampunk fantasy as I do, but instead to take it as the default of Steampunk, how then would we refer to Steampunk without magic? It seems to me that in the classification of things into genres, we generally start off with nothing and keep adding, so we must start by addind Steampunk first and then the fantasy.
Just as how cultures and subcultures often mesh together. How many cyberpunk neovictorians are around? Steampunk is an 'incomplete', evolving subculture. There are no set rules, so magic is still as valid as hardcore science.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:18 am


Using magick as a way to get away with crazy stuff is lazy. Way I've always put it, if you can do something with your own two hands, don't bother with casting.

If you want coffee and there's a machine in the room, just use the machine.

If you can defeat a weak enemy easily, don't bust out the summoning runes.

Magick is good in the right ways, but don't use it for EVERYTHING.

I mean, heck, WoW is steampunk and it has arcane engines and steam engines.

Kurisu of the Hellfire


CapnAlex
Captain

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:33 am


Science ≠ Magic. The ends might be the same, but the means are quite different.

Brining in "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - that is not to say they are the same, just that they appear so. They are very different indeed yet achieve the same result.*
I like things which are explainable, and which are the feat of science and the human mind. Not just hocus pocus.
To me, technology in Steampunk is very much explainable, using the might of steam, or the chemical properties of aether. A giant mechanical spider is just as explainable as a train; an aether oscillation gun as explainable as any mundane chemical reaction. They might have never happened, but they can still be explained.
When something happens, whether mundane or wondrous, I like it to have a reason - be it mechanical or chemical processes, energetics or whatever. 'Magic' gets away with too much, and has a habit of explaining itself.

Aether is a knotty one, as in the real world it's either 'ether' (a real type of chemical); the sky; or a substance believed to permeate all space (through which light traverses, etc.). All perfectly rational, but not necessarily pertaining to as is in steampunk; where'tis often used in steampunk as a catch-all term for all sorts of things, often chemicals with extra-ordinary (but not necessarily magical) properties.

*Taking tea creation as an example - the end result of a machine that simply mixes tea with water it piped and heated into a cup; and that of magic summoning a cup of tea from nothing are the same. But the means are different, and the science and magic behind each are different.


A slightly-related quote:
Quote:
A. E. Pessimal: "Surely the wizards could-"

Vimes: "-magic their weapons out of their hands, possibly leaving them with all their fingers? Magic them into the cells? Turn them all into ferrets? And what then, Mr. Pessimal? Shall we follow where magic leads us? Wave a wand, eh, to find out who's guilty, and what of? Magic men good? The innocent would have nothing to fear, d'you think? I wouldn't bet tuppence, Mr. Pessimal. Magic's a little bit alive, a little bit tricky. Just when you think you've got it by the throat, it bites you in the arse."
~ Thud by Terry Pratchett
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:48 am


Oh, wow!! I got a nice debate going!!
Well then..

El Capitan, how much of the fantasy
genre do you read? More importantly,
which fantasy book scarred you for
life? I must admit that when asking
the author a question about a fantasy
book, and getting "Magic" as the only
answer to your question, it's a bit
unnerving. But magic, when done
properly in a work of fantasy, has set
rules of what can and cannot be done
with it. So, it's a system unto itself
that can be used alongside technology.
I, personally, have only read one
steampunk work that did not use magic
in some form.

It seems to me that watching this thread,
everyone seems to have fallen into the
old "Magic VS. Technology" argument. I
think that they can work swimmingly
together. Lemme give you an example!!
I am a steampunk WIZARD!! My magic
can give me the power to strike my enemies
down with LIGHTNING!! But that particular
spell is more than a wee bit consuming for
me. If I wanted to do it, I'd be laid out for
awhile dealing with the consequences of
my magic. Sooo... I build an army of soulless
mechanical automatons to do my bidding
(I guess I'm a bad guy steampunk wizard).
Each automaton is fueled by a power core
that harnesses my electricity powers in small
doses so as not to leave me passed out like
some drunken hippie. With my army of
soulless mechanical automatons, my enemies
will cower in fear!! See? Yes. Oh, that was
fun.

Eumorpha


CapnAlex
Captain

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:03 am


I am not an enemy of magic. Technology is a close friend, magic an associate.

I have read and do read a lot of fantasy novels; I just prefer science-fiction is all. Indeed, magic can be and often is used to very good effect indeed, and works well. (particularly with rules). And yes, it can work alongside technology. Artemis Fowl is one of my favourite series, and it combines the two very well indeed.
I, personally, have read quite a number of steampunk books with no magic, and only one with.

Yes, magic and technology can work together. But I prefer my technology without a side-order of magic. Just preference is all; I prefer the explainable, I prefer that which are feats of science and the human mind.
Indeed, your mix of science and magic sounds very nifty - and I have no quibble with it.

I think what makes steampunk steampunk is the technology (i.e. rampant, and based on steam power), as well as the 'theme'. Magic can be added very easily (as it can with most things), but doesn't have to be (and I prefer it that way). [Of course, steampunk can be added to a fantasy setting as well, like in WoW].

~

Steampunk and magic/fantasy are like cheese and burgers. Both work well by themselves, and people may prefer one to the other. Also, they may both be combined - which people may or may not prefer to them separate.
For example; I love cheese on its own, am quite happy with cheeseburgers, but rarely eat burgers on their own.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:09 am


Keith Valken Lionheart
Elliot Vidal
Sidnay
Who spoke such ridiculous things? Steampunk is all about the removal of the mundane and logical.
Not to mention, the last time I checked, we are allowed to do whatever we damn-heck-butt please with our imaginations as far as steampunk is concerned.
Steampunk and magic is nothing like putting two wet cats into a bag. It more like putting chocolate into pancakes; it makes perfect sense and them delicious. Without magic, steampunk is boring.
Send such fools my way, and I will give them a lesson in not being mediocre thinkers.

What?!?

I must surely disagree here, Steampunk is most definately not about the removal of logic. Steampunk is all about the Science! The rampant, rampant progress of Science, and what it could acheive in fantastic proportions. And magic has always been something of an anethema to science, being what is unexplained versus the explained. Yes, you can mix them in the same setting as a Steampunk fantasy, or a fantasy setting with Steampunk bits thrown in, such as the gnomes in WoW and Arcanum, but those are predominately about the fantasy, and in fantasy most anything goes. But Steampunk on its own requires nothing of magic, only science. Damn-heck-butt imaginative science, I'll grant you; that is what it is about; but we need no magic. In a way, magic would render it all worthless. With magic, why would anyone bother to toil for years making a giant robot when a wizard or whoever could remove it from existance in an instant (provided he is powerful enough of course)?

But to say its boring without magic. What? Have you ever read any of Verne's, Shelley's and Wells' books? Are they boring? I think not. Were they boring this genre we call Srteampunk would never have existed, surely. And I can think of many great Steampunk endeavors that have not a hint of magic, such as Steamboy, Wild Wild West, Pax Brittania, Mortal Engines, Henry Hatsowrth and so forth, films, books and games. Soem freakish and aberrant science I shall admit, but no magic, and they are not boring in the least.

You may prefer yourself to dabble in the Steampunk fantasy end of the spectrum that is Steampunk, but I myself am a purist. But, having said that and voiced my opinion, I can accept your own as your own, even if I may diagree fervently with it. But please, in future, do not go referring to our camp as mediocre thinkers, or else you shall surely become very much of a mediocre person yourself, closeted in your views.
Steampunk is not about science, IMO, but a 'what if'. It answers questions about an era that never was. So, asking thyself 'What if back in the victorian eras technology advanced rather rapidly and magic existed?' is just as valid.

Steampunk technology is hand-wavium, unexplainable fun. Just as magic is hocus-pocus fun. To me, both science and magic are indistinguishable. True, that golem may be destroyed by a spell, but when a human creates an A-bomb, science goes up in the Power scale, and it's up to the spellcasters to create a stronger spell. The possibilites of adding magic to a steampunk setting are very varied.

Besides, a Man vs Nature theme would fit well with Steampunk, as many are usually engineers, inventors, etc, and are kinda defying nature to prove themselves.

What is Aether in Steampunk? It's an unexplainable substance, if it IS a substance. It powers tools, weapons, etc. It transfers information (Aetherweb). It does things that are hard to explain with science. Does Aether not fit into the magic category?

While magic is not needed fer Steampunk to work, it adds flair, expands on what is already a solid setting.

Besides, any sufficiently advanced technology is as powerful and versatile as magic. So science=magic in some cases.


What?!? Steampunk is not about Science?!? What are you raving about! Steampunk is speculative fiction; you're right about it being a what if, but its "What if steam technology had progressed exponentially?". The question "What if magic were real?" was, last time I checked, answered by the fantasy genre. True enough, as I said earlier, Steampunk Fantasy as a gestalt is perfectly acceptable and answers both questions, but is Steampunk Fantasy. The fantasy tag at the end there is important.

Steampunk is not a question of "What if?". That is what all fiction is. Saying that Steampunk is any "What if?" question concerning the 'era that never was', as you put it, can unfortunately be exposed as folly thusly: "What if Jack the Ripper never disappeared?". It fits your criteria, but I, and I think many others, would not call it Steampunk.

Yes, Steampunk technology is oft absurd, and truly it is often unexplainable to us, or by our standards, but the important distinction is that in the Steampunk world itself, it is explained for all those who understand it. It is just a kosher to their scientists as real and existing technology is to ours.

To answer your question, Aether is some unknown substance, and not at all magical to a Steampunk fellow. Or, indeed, to a real-life Victorian, as it was a true theoretical substance, so not magical in the slightest. The reason it is commonly seen in Steampunk works being used to allow all sorts of crazy things like the Aethernet and allowing things to fly is because very little about it was known in the Victorian era, and that it is fictitious, and so authors have a free licence to create what it does do not that in their setting it is an established reality. But, nevertheless, no matter what things it does that seem freaky to us, to the Steampunk characters it is, whilst marvellous, entirely explained within the boundaries of science, and subject to close scrutiny and investigation. To them, and that is the important part, it is not what they would call magic, but science.

To summarise the above, what is important in such things as Aether is perspective. To us, the effects seem magical, but in the Steampunk world that is just they way it is, and not magical at all. Wonderous and little understood, but not magic. Dark energy in reality is perhaps an analogy; to us it is only theoretical, little understood, but real and subject to scientific scrutiny. But to an outsider, it may seem that the idea of a unobservable energy that is exerting a repulsive force must be magic.

And that really is for me a very important feature of the Steampunk genre (as opposed to the Steampunk Fantasy genre), is that no matter how fantastical something may be, it all can be rationally explained through Science. Magic, on the other hand, it entirely inexplicable by science by its very definition, and so for me necessitates the addition of 'Fantasy' to the genre. And it is not just Steampunk that I require this for. Anything that includes magic is part of the fantasy genre, as well as any other genres it may qualify for inclusion in.

But, just to be clear, this is not to say the Magic and Steampunk cannot be combined. Just that that is the genre of Steampunk Fantasy, not raw or pure Steampunk. Steampunk is the rampant scientific developement in the Victorian era, or a similar one, and Fantasy is the magic. If the term Steampunk were to include magic as standard, what would you propose we call the genre of Steampunk without magic, hmmm???

Elliot Vidal
Crew


CapnAlex
Captain

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:13 am


Elliot Vidal
If the term Steampunk were to include magic as standard, what would you propose we call the genre of Steampunk without magic, hmmm???


Steampunk-Lite™
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:16 am


Captain Amaranth
Elliot Vidal
If the term Steampunk were to include magic as standard, what would you propose we call the genre of Steampunk without magic, hmmm???


Steampunk-Lite™


That, sir, is terrible. For shame.

Elliot Vidal
Crew


Elliot Vidal
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:38 am


I have thought of another way of illustrating what I mean, thusly:
User Image
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:03 am


not necserilly magic, but i am using alchemy (FMA style) in my webcomic, when i get around to scanning the pages on my desk...

so, a handful of characters can cast fireballs and such, based on the four magical elements (fire, earth, water, wind) and the sub elements (Metal, Ice, Lightning, Gravity)

however, as i say, although it is kinda magic, i use the term Alchemy in the same way FMA does, as a more acceptable term for magic.

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Elliot Vidal
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:30 am


fire - link
not necserilly magic, but i am using alchemy (FMA style) in my webcomic, when i get around to scanning the pages on my desk...

so, a handful of characters can cast fireballs and such, based on the four magical elements (fire, earth, water, wind) and the sub elements (Metal, Ice, Lightning, Gravity)

however, as i say, although it is kinda magic, i use the term Alchemy in the same way FMA does, as a more acceptable term for magic.


Yea, I'm cool with using Alchemy as a science, because that is who it is studied and how characters approach it, but I still err on the side of caution and would call a setting with it in fantasy, just a less fantastic fantasy than regular magic.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:39 am


I agree wit Elliot Vidal and I think we are all saying the same things.

Magic can be steampunk, despite the previous negativity toward such notions.

That being said Steampunk does not have to include magic.

What steampunk must include is an imaginative re-evaluation of Technology/Science. Some of us, myself included, might debate that that is a magic of its own kind, but as this is a moot (debatable) point, any further discussion on this fact will need to be extremely careful not to fall into pettiness and semantics.

Sidnay


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:40 am


I think it all depends on the setting you're into...

Steampunk lends itself well to blending with many other settings, if the world is built around the idea...

Bits of one or another or having wars with nations of each would make for easy ideas of how the two inter cross...

[random blathering]

Steampunk "purists" may argue against this, but I'm fond of the idea.
Reply
Supernatural Steampunk (tales of ghosts & magic)

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