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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:50 pm
No, I completely get what you're saying. The fact that she's motherly towards Toph and Sokka makes her romantic relationship with Aang even creepier because it's like, she wouldn't want to be with either of them either, so why the heck is she with Aang who of the three of them needs the mother the most? The pictures are hysterical by the way. It gave me an idea for a fanfiction. Aang goes to a Sigmund Freudesqe psychologist to have a dream analyzed. In the dream he is Katara and Zuko's son, but he has a huge crush on Katara. I'll call it Oedipus: The Last Airbender.
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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:12 am
rachaella22 Ladrona del Corazon Ok, I know I've done the Oedipal complex thing already, but I've remembered something that happened in the show that made the whole Kataang thing even more creepy. Katara has literally played the role of his mother before. Remember the episode where Aang went to a Firenation school? She pretended to be his mother. This seems like the best representation of their relationship in the entire series. I'm just sayin'. Yeah, not to mention the fact that Aang admitted she mothered him in 'The Runaway." Sure, she may be motherly to Sokka and Toph, too, but it seems to double where Aang is concerned. Also, she has never once showed motherly-ness toward Zuko - the way they met each other made it kinda hard for her to see him as someone who needed to be protected and scolded. Also, in the finale he was the father and she was the mother xD Srsly. Sorry, babbling. Those pictures are priceless! Hahaha!! Zuko and Katara make an awesome parenting team.
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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:41 am
Ladrona del Corazon No, I completely get what you're saying. The fact that she's motherly towards Toph and Sokka makes her romantic relationship with Aang even creepier because it's like, she wouldn't want to be with either of them either, so why the heck is she with Aang who of the three of them needs the mother the most? The pictures are hysterical by the way. It gave me an idea for a fanfiction. Aang goes to a Sigmund Freudesqe psychologist to have a dream analyzed. In the dream he is Katara and Zuko's son, but he has a huge crush on Katara. I'll call it Oedipus: The Last Airbender. what about "oedipus: the last idbender"? rofl
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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:54 am
HAHA! I love it! I'll post the link when I write it.
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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:19 pm
RockyRoadSmith rachaella22 Ladrona del Corazon Ok, I know I've done the Oedipal complex thing already, but I've remembered something that happened in the show that made the whole Kataang thing even more creepy. Katara has literally played the role of his mother before. Remember the episode where Aang went to a Firenation school? She pretended to be his mother. This seems like the best representation of their relationship in the entire series. I'm just sayin'. Yeah, not to mention the fact that Aang admitted she mothered him in 'The Runaway." Sure, she may be motherly to Sokka and Toph, too, but it seems to double where Aang is concerned. Also, she has never once showed motherly-ness toward Zuko - the way they met each other made it kinda hard for her to see him as someone who needed to be protected and scolded. Also, in the finale he was the father and she was the mother xD Srsly. Sorry, babbling. Those pictures are priceless! Hahaha!! Zuko and Katara make an awesome parenting team. Hehe, yeah. I can't help but wonder if Bryke even noticed how mother/father they were. xD I mean, look at this!
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:51 pm
Omigosh, I'm so glad to finally see people in here again. For the longest time I thought this guild had died. crying heart
Anywhom...Well, this actually might be building off of DietOtaku's wonderful Triangular theory of love, but there's this new guy in my Jewelry class. He's somewhere in his thirties, and a very interesting, knowledgable guy. He was in the French Foreign Legions for a while, so he's traveled the world, seen tons of stuff and people in his life.
He said the other day that there are THREE BASIC THINGS that a romantic relationship needs to be healthy:
Trust, Communication, and Intamacy.
As for Trust, well, let's look at Kataang and add on whatever you like, since I don't have time or concentration in this anymore to go through episode by episode. TSR, again, proved that Aang doesn't trust her to make her own, healthy decision. As for trusting her to not "stray from him" romantically, EIP provides a possible window of Aang's possessiveness(and also it is that window which really got me hating him). When faced with even the comical, totally non-serious idea that Katara could possibly have feelings for someone else, above all thinking of him as a brother at the same time, he freaks. Katara and Zuko trust each other, with their lives. I'm sure Aang and Katara have that too, though. But Zuko and Katara trust each other on an EMOTIONAL level. Which is the much harder level to trust ANYONE on. Especially after what Katara and Zuko have gone through, they have plenty of reason to be completely closed off to each other and everyone else. But they do open up, and they do it EASILY with one another. Aang can always come to Katara to have her baby and worry over him and his emotions, but can he HONESTLY return that favor?
Communication...Well. Do I really need to say anything? TSR provides a chance for the whole cave scene to come out from Katara. But it doesn't. At the end of the show, Aang knows nothing of what happened to the both of them in the cave(other than the EIP portrayal of it) AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, the two of them barely run any dialogue about their "romance." Katara says she's confused, Aang TRIES TO KISS HER. Later, nothing. No, "Why were you confused?" or "This is why I was confused" talk after the fact. Aang runs away whenever something pisses him off, even when Katara does reach out to him. Katara has only ever meaningfully communicated with Zuko. He's the one who hears what's bothering her. She's the one who helps him work up to going to see Iroh. This really goes hand in hand with the trust issue.
Intamacy...Sorry, but kisses on the cheek and Fwiendship hugs aren't really intamacy. And while this is one of the more difficult ones to peg, since they're all underage in the show and such and the actual Kataang romance only really began at the end...I think DietOtaku's point about passion comes into play here. Zuko and KAtara have that passion, even for each other, if it were just in a more romantic setting, then it would be perfect. Everytime I think of "intimacy" between Katara and Aang, all I can come up with are the motherly gestures...which in the end, yes, can be very Oedipal looking. All the actual intimate moments, I.E. the kisses, were very odd for some reason, either Katara wasn't herself, it was Aang forcing himself on her, or the whole thing just looked horribly age INappropriate. It's just wierd. The Zutara hug had more beautiful intamacy than did anything from the Kataang side. Her hand on his cheek in CoD was very intimate.
BLAH. Zutara: 500, Kataang: -346 and a half. rofl
Also, yes, in the finale, they were so Mother-father-son it wasn't even funny. well, it was kinda, until Mother kissed son. DX
It is SO oedipal. But a guy who I met at Comicon said that the way Katara's character was written, it was kind of inevitable for her to fall in love with someone she cared over. Though it makes so much sense to me, and always has, that she'd WANT to be with the one who she DIDN'T have to bother and baby. I always thought that she should fall in love with an equal. *insert already known arguments about give-take ratios here*. That's why I saw her as so compatible with Zuko, and NOT Aang. I always figured that he had to learn something, to let go of something, namely Katara, but I guess it wasn't in the cards. Bryke just had to baby him.
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:31 am
I think it did, for a little while. D: I was being a negligent captain.
Ooh, I'm likin' this theory. Lemme see if I can come up with anything else for it.
Trust: - Like you said, Zuko and Katara are surprisingly open and trusting with each other. I think there's just something about Katara's character that makes Zuko feel comfortable enough to open up, and something about Zuko that makes Katara feel like she can break down and stop being the support. They've seen each other at their best and worst, and I think this is part of the reason why they're so comfortable and open and, well, trusting with each other. - Katara has always had to be the mother/guardian of Aang (and Sokka, and Toph). Since day one, she's either looked at him as someone who needs to be babied and protected or a symbol of hope - not an equal, not someone who should help her with her own problems. Aang, on the other hand, has always seen Katara as someone who's able to care for herself and the symbol of all that is kind and good, or someone to fawn over and try to impress - not a vulnerable teenage girl who needs someone to breakdown to, not a human who has as much darkness within her as anyone else. They have unrealistic views of each other, and I don't think that's a healthy basis for a relationship. - TSR is, like, a perfect example of why Zutara has trust and Kataang doesn't. Without really considering what Katara's going through and what she needs to overcome her feelings of anger and hatred (which, really, he should be able to understand. In fact, he was being an enormous hypocrite in this episode - anytime there's a slight chance of him losing someone (Appa, Gyatso, Katara in 'Avatar State') he goes berserk). Not to mention the fact that he of all people should no that Katara would never kill anyone, even if it was her initial intention - it's just not in her nature. Zuko, however, trusted her to make her own decisions and do what she needed to overcome her grief. He acted as moral support, not trying to force her into any decisions. Another thing that stands out is that, at a point in the series, Katara was still holding a grudge against Zuko, yet she still trusted him as truthful when he told her he could find her mother's murdered, and she let him come along for the ride!
Communication: - Katara and Zuko, as previously stated, a very open with each other. Even when they're sworn enemies they open up and talk about what's bothering them (COD, anyone? I think that was the first time Zuko talked to anyone so candidly about his scar and banishment), and because of their history as enemies they aren't afraid to be honest about their opinions of one another. They know the other person can handle whatever they throw at them and don't feel a need to hod back and be gentle (this moreso in Katara's case, since she's usually the kind and motherly person in the gaang). And what's more impressive is that sometimes they don't even need to communicate to work together - TSR is a good example of this, as is the scene in the finale when they're destroying Toph's stone soldiers. They can fight with each other just as easily as they can fight against each other, and I think that's probably a good ability in a relationship. - Aang and Katara have very one-sided communication. Aang expresses his worries to Katara, she comforts him, all is better. Katara has problems, she bottles them up, Aang smiles on obliviously. What's more upsetting is that they never so much as mentioned the kiss after the failed invasion - there were plenty of opportunities to discuss it, but they never did. And then, in TSR, Aang ignores Katara's statement of confusion by kissing her and pressing for answers about their 'relationship'. Which, again, is never discussed. In fact, pretty much anytime Aang does something like this it's left unspoken, hangingin in the air between them. I'm know psychologist, but I'm pretty sure that's a sign of an unhealthy relationship;.
Intimacy: - I'm not sure how to go about this one, either, since there isn't a lot of physical romance within the series. But I think what you said is right - Zuko and Katara seem very natural and comfortable with each other. There relationship doesn't seem familial at all, and when they show some sort of affection for each other it never comes off as awkward or wrong. - Kataang, on the other hand, has always weirded me out. One of them first episodes I saw featured a cheek-kiss, and it rubbed me all the wrong ways. There's something about them and their interaction that just makes it seem kind of... wrong when they're affectionate and intimate with each other. I think it's because Katara spends so much time mothering him and being the gentle, caring, protective figure that it seems very out of place for her to become his lover.
I dunno if I made much sense. o.O I tried.
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:57 pm
We should really write a collective essay and send it to Bryke. Maybe they'll give us an alternate ending just to shut us up wink . Let me say something about the other pairing that makes my butt itch. Maiko. Maiko, Maiko, Maiko. What can I say about Maiko? Why do they even exist? How did that happen? Mai was Azula's right hand. I assumed their relationship began because Azula told them to get together. Don't look at your computer screen like that; it's completely within the realm of possibility and you know it. Mai took orders from Azula like she was a dog or something. That relationship was more OTB than Kataang. Mai also didn't get Zuko. When he confided in her about his troubles, all she could think to say was "let's order some fruit tarts. Ordering the servants around will make you feel better." Oh, yeah. That's a healthy relationship. That's just one example. I don't blame Zuko for ending things with a letter. I wouldn't want to tell her anything either. Plus, I just don't like Mai. She's a punk. At least Ty Lee tried to resist Azula a little. Mai folded like a cheap card table. That one heroic act in the end didn't redeem her to me. She only did it because she liked Zuko, not because she supported his cause or suddenly understood why he was doing it. Then when they got back together, it was like she had nothing to appologize for! Are you kidding?!?!? She had more to be sorry about than Zuko in my opinion.
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:26 pm
First of all, Rach, I love your post, it said so much more than I did, lol.
And BOOGERS, in my little comparison, I forgot Maiko! *facepalm*
First I'll say this though, I can admit that Maiko was foreshadowed and actually an honest emotion felt by Mai(Don't look at me like that, yes, she has SOME emotion) I truly do believe that she was in love with him...And St' Jun forgive me, I'm starting, after all these months, to accept that Zuko loved her too(Though I still don't see it too much, and it still came out of nowhere. ) Let's just say they didn't build up to it enough or properly.
The thing I can say for Maiko is that, at least it was somewhat mutual during the show and progression of things, not like Kataang. *dodges shoes*
Anyway, the one thing I can also say Maiko had, was INTIMACY. It was the most physical thing in this whole show besides that Sukka suggestiveness in TSR when it came to romance. It was just in your face intimacy that made all of us cringe and shift uncomfortably in our seats after we got over shouting at the TV. They certainly had a TON of intimacy...but it got in the way of actually solving their other problems...
Trust: Obviously, there's not much of this in their relationship. Zuko keeps everything from her until it bursts in The Beach. Even then, he's not all that specific. Zuko even gets jealous when the other boys are talking to her. not very trusting. I see his reaction as rejecting that anything could take away Mai who was apparently the only thing good he had left in his life even with his fathers love away from him...yet he didn't trust her enough to let her take care of it herself and not leave him. Either way, I'm not a big fan in that they made him possessive. >.> Mai on the other hand...Well, I think she trusts him...Until he leaves. Then he's a "traitor" and the "Jerk". Even after he tries explaining to her, she doesn't get it. Refuses to get it. Refuses to listen.
Communication: Again, Zuko never tells her anything. because he can't. He spends most of his time silent and sulking, and she has no idea what's wrong with him. There is almost no communication with these two. Mai never communicates anything to him, either. She never communicates how she's feeling, and he never communicates what's bothering him. He couldn't, because she wouldn't understand, or she'd possibly tell Azula.
The only saving grace in this is post-war stuff, and how their relationship would change after the finale. Maiko I believe is the only thing that could work, because now that I'm thinking on it, Zuko really COULDN'T say anything because of the time they were living in, and it was kept inside because Iroh was ignoring him. But now that that era is over, and Mai has somehow become A-ok with it, things could be different. I'm kind of growing a tolerant-hate relationship with it. (I blame Hina Meta on TegakiE)...Their relationship was less than perfect in the show, but I think with more work it could be salvaged. *dodges more shoes*
Kataang however, I can't wrap my head around. It's just too unhealthy, had all those holes where there should have been development and communication, and it just DOES. NOT. FIT. in my mind. You're right, Rach, having something like the uncomfortable kisses and "Kataang drama" hanging in the air, undiscussed cannot be healthy. Even AANG should be wondering, hey, WTF was up with that, Katara? But he never will, because he got his dream girl and can now go play penguin sledding with her in the ice and snow. Not to mention, as you said, all the things they don't know about each other, their false images of each other. I especially love what you said about Katara's view of him. Aang in her mind is a child; Katara in his mind is a Goddess. Until of course when Aang saves the world, then he is suddenly a big boy who deserves a more manly kiss. Then again, I tend to consider that moot point because the finale was just so damn rushed and pulled together out of Brykes a**.
I say they could have done a LOT better of a job with season three if it was less filler and more develoment of their most awesomest of awesome pairings, EVUR.
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:07 am
Ladrona del Corazon We should really write a collective essay and send it to Bryke. Maybe they'll give us an alternate ending just to shut us up wink . Let me say something about the other pairing that makes my butt itch. Maiko. Maiko, Maiko, Maiko. What can I say about Maiko? Why do they even exist? How did that happen? Mai was Azula's right hand. I assumed their relationship began because Azula told them to get together. Don't look at your computer screen like that; it's completely within the realm of possibility and you know it. Mai took orders from Azula like she was a dog or something. That relationship was more OTB than Kataang. Mai also didn't get Zuko. When he confided in her about his troubles, all she could think to say was "let's order some fruit tarts. Ordering the servants around will make you feel better." Oh, yeah. That's a healthy relationship. That's just one example. I don't blame Zuko for ending things with a letter. I wouldn't want to tell her anything either. Plus, I just don't like Mai. She's a punk. At least Ty Lee tried to resist Azula a little. Mai folded like a cheap card table. That one heroic act in the end didn't redeem her to me. She only did it because she liked Zuko, not because she supported his cause or suddenly understood why he was doing it. Then when they got back together, it was like she had nothing to appologize for! Are you kidding?!?!? She had more to be sorry about than Zuko in my opinion. Yeah, I don't really get where Maiko came from either, or how it lasted. The creators didn't develop it well at all. Actually, they just plain didn't develop it. I mean, when we're first introduced to Mai, she's helping Azula try to capture Zuko. That... doesn't spell a healthy relationship, especially since she showed absolutely no objection to the idea of what they would undoubtedly do to Zuko once they found him. She just blindly followed Azula because she was bored - and the one time she did disobey her ('The Drill'), it wasn't for any profound or deeply personal reasons. She just didn't want to get dirty. :/ That's probably one of the things that's bothering me most at the moment. That and the fact that Mai doesn't understand Zuko or his problems at all.
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:15 am
Teh_Sheba First of all, Rach, I love your post, it said so much more than I did, lol.
And BOOGERS, in my little comparison, I forgot Maiko! *facepalm*
First I'll say this though, I can admit that Maiko was foreshadowed and actually an honest emotion felt by Mai(Don't look at me like that, yes, she has SOME emotion) I truly do believe that she was in love with him...And St' Jun forgive me, I'm starting, after all these months, to accept that Zuko loved her too(Though I still don't see it too much, and it still came out of nowhere. ) Let's just say they didn't build up to it enough or properly.
The thing I can say for Maiko is that, at least it was somewhat mutual during the show and progression of things, not like Kataang. *dodges shoes*
Anyway, the one thing I can also say Maiko had, was INTIMACY. It was the most physical thing in this whole show besides that Sukka suggestiveness in TSR when it came to romance. It was just in your face intimacy that made all of us cringe and shift uncomfortably in our seats after we got over shouting at the TV. They certainly had a TON of intimacy...but it got in the way of actually solving their other problems...
Trust: Obviously, there's not much of this in their relationship. Zuko keeps everything from her until it bursts in The Beach. Even then, he's not all that specific. Zuko even gets jealous when the other boys are talking to her. not very trusting. I see his reaction as rejecting that anything could take away Mai who was apparently the only thing good he had left in his life even with his fathers love away from him...yet he didn't trust her enough to let her take care of it herself and not leave him. Either way, I'm not a big fan in that they made him possessive. >.> Mai on the other hand...Well, I think she trusts him...Until he leaves. Then he's a "traitor" and the "Jerk". Even after he tries explaining to her, she doesn't get it. Refuses to get it. Refuses to listen.
Communication: Again, Zuko never tells her anything. because he can't. He spends most of his time silent and sulking, and she has no idea what's wrong with him. There is almost no communication with these two. Mai never communicates anything to him, either. She never communicates how she's feeling, and he never communicates what's bothering him. He couldn't, because she wouldn't understand, or she'd possibly tell Azula.
The only saving grace in this is post-war stuff, and how their relationship would change after the finale. Maiko I believe is the only thing that could work, because now that I'm thinking on it, Zuko really COULDN'T say anything because of the time they were living in, and it was kept inside because Iroh was ignoring him. But now that that era is over, and Mai has somehow become A-ok with it, things could be different. I'm kind of growing a tolerant-hate relationship with it. (I blame Hina Meta on TegakiE)...Their relationship was less than perfect in the show, but I think with more work it could be salvaged. *dodges more shoes*
Kataang however, I can't wrap my head around. It's just too unhealthy, had all those holes where there should have been development and communication, and it just DOES. NOT. FIT. in my mind. You're right, Rach, having something like the uncomfortable kisses and "Kataang drama" hanging in the air, undiscussed cannot be healthy. Even AANG should be wondering, hey, WTF was up with that, Katara? But he never will, because he got his dream girl and can now go play penguin sledding with her in the ice and snow. Not to mention, as you said, all the things they don't know about each other, their false images of each other. I especially love what you said about Katara's view of him. Aang in her mind is a child; Katara in his mind is a Goddess. Until of course when Aang saves the world, then he is suddenly a big boy who deserves a more manly kiss. Then again, I tend to consider that moot point because the finale was just so damn rushed and pulled together out of Brykes a**.
I say they could have done a LOT better of a job with season three if it was less filler and more develoment of their most awesomest of awesome pairings, EVUR. Ooh, I like your analysis of Maiko. It does help it make a little bit more sense, though I still consider them incompatible. Uhh... *Can think of nothing else to add*. ^.^;; Yeah I think they definitely have some major trust and communication issues, even if they are a little over-the-top in their intimacy. One out of three is... not good.
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:18 pm
Personally, I think Mai was in love with the idea of being in love with Zuko. As for Zuko...there wasn't enough development for me to tell. That's what I meant when I said they came out of nowhere. They literally weren't and then they all of the sudden were? Huh?...Wha?... eek confused
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:06 pm
I definitely see what you guys are saying.
That's the problem I had with Maiko from the start, that it was certainly there on Mai's side, but for Zuko, it just came out of nowhere. For all the Maiko shippers say it was young love, I never saw an OUNCE of a sign that showed that little Zuko returned the feeling. He was too wrapped up with his mother and hearing what Uncle Iroh was doing in the war and such. Did he honestly even see Mai as anyone other than one of Azula's little friends? Again, like Greenifyme once said; Maiko was the first time we'd seen a romance in a show, but NOT seen how the two fell in love. It leaves a lot to be desired and obviously made us miss something.
And yeah, Mai really doesn't understand. If the finale wasn't fixed up all nice with everyone in party mode, Mai would still be confused all to heck about why he helped overthrow his father, was ending the war, etc etc...Again, chalk it up to bad, rushed writing.
And the fact that she did cooperate when she knew what Azula would do...that actually IS disturbing. .__.; I mean, I loved her back then for being apathetic and unconcerned with everything, but really, what was she planning to do if Zuko HAD been captured?? That does raise some questions....
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:35 am
The issue of Mai not making the slightest protest to Zuko's inevitable fate at the hands of Azula makes me want to write fic. Seriously - it's begging to be expanded on.
And, yeah, there wasn't really anything there on Zuko's end as far as childhood crushes go. I mean, even the whole 'knocking-a-flaming-apple-off-her-head' thing is kinda open to interpretation. :/
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:03 pm
rachaella22 The issue of Mai not making the slightest protest to Zuko's inevitable fate at the hands of Azula makes me want to write fic. Seriously - it's begging to be expanded on. And, yeah, there wasn't really anything there on Zuko's end as far as childhood crushes go. I mean, even the whole 'knocking-a-flaming-apple-off-her-head' thing is kinda open to interpretation. :/ Dude, I honestly think that he would have done the same clumsy and panicked save if the apple had been on Ty Lee's head. Seriously, it's a Zuko thing, am I right?
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