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Reply DARK ELVEN LORE --- History, culture, lore, myths and magic of the UnderGaia races
Drow Growth and Aging Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2

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Draevir
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:35 am


Orawan
I'd rather base aging off of R.A. Salvatore's books.. I know it's about the same but he's technically the expert on the matter.


I tend to disagree. Salvatore has delved deeply into the lore, however he is not the expert so much as he wrote what the TSR (before WotC) staff declared at the time to be canon. Much of it was distorted and in some cases blatantly incorrect. Salvatore took the information given to him and wrote masterfully, however it doesn't change the fact that he was working with less valid information.

What has happened is that the canon was inadvertantly changed without actual confirmation due to his books which served to muddy the waters. Gygax was the expert as he invented the original canon for drow. Salvatore embellished and added to it using interpretations of others on Gygax's work.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:00 am


Draevir
Orawan
I'd rather base aging off of R.A. Salvatore's books.. I know it's about the same but he's technically the expert on the matter.


I tend to disagree. Salvatore has delved deeply into the lore, however he is not the expert so much as he wrote what the TSR (before WotC) staff declared at the time to be canon. Much of it was distorted and in some cases blatantly incorrect. Salvatore took the information given to him and wrote masterfully, however it doesn't change the fact that he was working with less valid information.

What has happened is that the canon was inadvertantly changed without actual confirmation due to his books which served to muddy the waters. Gygax was the expert as he invented the original canon for drow. Salvatore embellished and added to it using interpretations of others on Gygax's work.


meanwhile i am researching and investigating origional Celtic, Germanic, Scandinavian and Icelandic info on the Light and Dark Elves.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:44 pm


Chieftain Twilight
Draevir
Orawan
I'd rather base aging off of R.A. Salvatore's books.. I know it's about the same but he's technically the expert on the matter.


I tend to disagree. Salvatore has delved deeply into the lore, however he is not the expert so much as he wrote what the TSR (before WotC) staff declared at the time to be canon. Much of it was distorted and in some cases blatantly incorrect. Salvatore took the information given to him and wrote masterfully, however it doesn't change the fact that he was working with less valid information.

What has happened is that the canon was inadvertantly changed without actual confirmation due to his books which served to muddy the waters. Gygax was the expert as he invented the original canon for drow. Salvatore embellished and added to it using interpretations of others on Gygax's work.


meanwhile i am researching and investigating origional Celtic, Germanic, Scandinavian and Icelandic info on the Light and Dark Elves.


The original reference to "dark" elves from the norse myths would be best looked for under the name "Svartalfar" (literally 'black elves'). wink
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:58 pm


Fean77
Chieftain Twilight
Draevir
Orawan
I'd rather base aging off of R.A. Salvatore's books.. I know it's about the same but he's technically the expert on the matter.


I tend to disagree. Salvatore has delved deeply into the lore, however he is not the expert so much as he wrote what the TSR (before WotC) staff declared at the time to be canon. Much of it was distorted and in some cases blatantly incorrect. Salvatore took the information given to him and wrote masterfully, however it doesn't change the fact that he was working with less valid information.

What has happened is that the canon was inadvertantly changed without actual confirmation due to his books which served to muddy the waters. Gygax was the expert as he invented the original canon for drow. Salvatore embellished and added to it using interpretations of others on Gygax's work.


meanwhile i am researching and investigating origional Celtic, Germanic, Scandinavian and Icelandic info on the Light and Dark Elves.


The original reference to "dark" elves from the norse myths would be best looked for under the name "Svartalfar" (literally 'black elves'). wink


yeah, i'd found that... along with an interesting note on how hey were origionally called Duergar, because it meant something along the same lines, but that due to the confusion between them and the Dwarves wh were ALSO called Duergar, the preffered the name Svartalfar.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:17 pm


Draevir
Okay, here's another chart, from the source: AD&D 2nd Edition "The Complete Book of Elves" authored by Colin McComb (1992).

This source applied to all existing settings (including Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk) at the time.

Drow Age Categories:

Childhood 1-49
Adolescence 50-79
Adulthood 80-139
Middle Age 140-189
Old Age 190-224
Venerable Age 225
Maximum Age 225 + 3-300 (up to 525)

I greatly dislike this source's concept of aging, as it makes not just drow, but all other elven sub-races much shorter lived in the later age categories.


I agree with your dislike. I much prefer the first source's concept. I'm most definitely making my Drow age as the first source states.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:29 pm


A Drow, like all elves, is quick to reach maturity and at about the same age that a human would. 20 years of age and it would be safe to assume that your character would be done growing, much like a human would be. Average life however is much longer, In the Legend of Drizzt, with Drow living well past 500 and max being at about 1000, with all but those who preformed Zen Carla remaining youthful until death, which is rarely of natural cause.

Erkan the Drow


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:48 pm


Erkan the Drow
A Drow, like all elves, is quick to reach maturity and at about the same age that a human would. 20 years of age and it would be safe to assume that your character would be done growing, much like a human would be. Average life however is much longer, In the Legend of Drizzt, with Drow living well past 500 and max being at about 1000, with all but those who preformed Zen Carla remaining youthful until death, which is rarely of natural cause.


The Drizzt books, while being a fun read, are not necessarily the best source for drow information. Also common sense should be included. Drow are basically elves. If you throw in some common sense calculations then while maturity (in physical terms) may be reached around twenty or so, adulthood (being a social construction, based on personality and responsibility) may be much much later.

Many twelve year olds are technically 'mature', in that they can breed. That does not make them adults by any stretch of the imagination.

In the case of elves, physical maturity would probably be later. Even though their 'peak' health is extended, this is towards the latter half of their life. The cultural complexity described with many elves, as well as the personality developments, would take longer to teach, learn and develop than the more simplified human culture. Also the grace and carriage the elves are supposed to have suggests more time spent in the rapid learning phase known as childhood.

Overall while they may not spend much longer than humans 'maturing' physically, I'd reckon on maybe an extra ten years or so, so a 22 year old elf would be equivalent to a 12 year old human, relative to their own culture. To a human a 22 year old elf may have all the grace, poise and maturity of an adult human, but would seem like a very childish elf.

Throw into the mix that humans are famous for one thing almost universally in D&D, learning quickly. Thus elves, dwarves, and any other long-lived race does not learn as quickly and is not as adaptable. This would also affect the perception of adulthood among these races.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, however taking what is often said of the fantasy elves, they appear youthful for a much greater period of their life, so their middle age is stretched out, but their childhood also needs to be considered as stretched out, even if not to the same amount. A good age of majority (not maturity), would seem to be around fifty going by the standard aging guides. I can't fault the chart given above, except possibly to say the maximum age should be extended (for which I blame Lord of the Rings, original elves in D&D were long-lived, but only by a few times the human lifespan).

The decline of elves into old age has always been seen as a very rapid degeneration. Personally I would push the upper bounds of middle age higher, and have old age begin maybe fifty years before maximum age expires, maybe a century for those who manage to cling on hard enough.

As for Zin-carla, it's just raise dead in essence. A powerful form of it, but still just raise dead.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:24 pm


Mr Lapus
Erkan the Drow
A Drow, like all elves, is quick to reach maturity and at about the same age that a human would. 20 years of age and it would be safe to assume that your character would be done growing, much like a human would be. Average life however is much longer, In the Legend of Drizzt, with Drow living well past 500 and max being at about 1000, with all but those who preformed Zen Carla remaining youthful until death, which is rarely of natural cause.


The Drizzt books, while being a fun read, are not necessarily the best source for drow information. Also common sense should be included. Drow are basically elves. If you throw in some common sense calculations then while maturity (in physical terms) may be reached around twenty or so, adulthood (being a social construction, based on personality and responsibility) may be much much later.

Many twelve year olds are technically 'mature', in that they can breed. That does not make them adults by any stretch of the imagination.

In the case of elves, physical maturity would probably be later. Even though their 'peak' health is extended, this is towards the latter half of their life. The cultural complexity described with many elves, as well as the personality developments, would take longer to teach, learn and develop than the more simplified human culture. Also the grace and carriage the elves are supposed to have suggests more time spent in the rapid learning phase known as childhood.

Overall while they may not spend much longer than humans 'maturing' physically, I'd reckon on maybe an extra ten years or so, so a 22 year old elf would be equivalent to a 12 year old human, relative to their own culture. To a human a 22 year old elf may have all the grace, poise and maturity of an adult human, but would seem like a very childish elf.

Throw into the mix that humans are famous for one thing almost universally in D&D, learning quickly. Thus elves, dwarves, and any other long-lived race does not learn as quickly and is not as adaptable. This would also affect the perception of adulthood among these races.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, however taking what is often said of the fantasy elves, they appear youthful for a much greater period of their life, so their middle age is stretched out, but their childhood also needs to be considered as stretched out, even if not to the same amount. A good age of majority (not maturity), would seem to be around fifty going by the standard aging guides. I can't fault the chart given above, except possibly to say the maximum age should be extended (for which I blame Lord of the Rings, original elves in D&D were long-lived, but only by a few times the human lifespan).

The decline of elves into old age has always been seen as a very rapid degeneration. Personally I would push the upper bounds of middle age higher, and have old age begin maybe fifty years before maximum age expires, maybe a century for those who manage to cling on hard enough.

As for Zin-carla, it's just raise dead in essence. A powerful form of it, but still just raise dead.

Zen Carla puts a lot of stress on the user and aged Matron Malice more then 100 years. this guild is based on DND from what I've seen and DND is based on the original works of Tolkien, so if we want a definite answer i sagest we look it up there.

Erkan the Drow


Mr Lapus
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:30 am


Erkan the Drow
Zen Carla puts a lot of stress on the user and aged Matron Malice more then 100 years. this guild is based on DND from what I've seen and DND is based on the original works of Tolkien, so if we want a definite answer i sagest we look it up there.


Not really based on the original works of Tolkien, if it were then orcs would be essentially cloned on an industrial line, elves would be truly immortal, hobbits would all be homosexuals, and so forth. Many ideas were taken from Middle Earth, others were taken from other fantasy settings (spells for example have nothing to do with Tolkien's view of magic and are much closer to Vance's imaginings), and still others were original or taken from mythology.

Then you need to include the fact that there are hundreds of D&D settings, all with their own ideas.

Tolkien does make a good reference, but for many of these problems there is no definitive answer from any source. All you can do is use whatever experience and knowledge you might have, and the different sources you yourself draw on, to try and come to sensible conclusions, consistent within the setting you are using.
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DARK ELVEN LORE --- History, culture, lore, myths and magic of the UnderGaia races

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