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 Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:15 am
Semiremis I.Am Scribblemouse Pro-abortion makes it sound like we're all rabid fans of abortion. We're not: most, I imagine, would see it as a necessary evil at times and would campaign for help for mothers so that there were less abortions in the world even if it's impossible to have none. Call yourselves anti-abortion all you like, but calling the other side pro-abortion doesn't ring true. Sure it does. First of all, you know you are not supposed to post in the main forum. If you want to post in our guild at all, stick to the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life subforum. Secondly, Pro-abortion only sounds like that to you because of your guilty conscience. When someone is Pro-Gay Rights, does that mean they're going to go out and get a gay marriage? No. Does it mean they enjoy watching gay couples making out, or watching gay porn? No. It just means they support gays having legal rights. Same thing with people who are Pro-Death Sentence. Do they get off watching people be executed? No. They just believe that the death sentence is a viable method of dealing with criminals, and should be legal. Pro-Abortion is exactly the same thing. Pro-Abortion means you want abortion to be legal. End of story. Anti-Abortion means you want abortion to be illegal. End of story. I'm personally going to stick with Pro-Choice and Pro-Life, because those are everyone's preferred names, and I don't have a problem with that. But I'm a little sick of Pro-Choicers acting like Pro-Abortion means something that it doesn't. Especially since Pro-Choice isn't the right name at all. It's complete propaganda. Pro-Choice? The only choice you are supporting that we are not is the choice to legally have an abortion, but the name makes it sound like Pro-Choicers are paragons of freedom. You're not. It is one single choice, that even your side frequently claims is only a necessary evil. I wouldn't mind being called Anti-Abortion as long as your side was called Pro-Abortion. If we are called Anti-Abortion while you are Pro-Choice, though, there is an unbalance. Pro-Life is propaganda too, although I personally think it is a less heinous one than Pro-Choice. But when you get to use your propaganda and we don't, you come off as the paragons of freedom, while we're the evil people trying to take away your abortions. It's something that really pisses me off about the Associated Press, that they actually call Pro-Choicers Pro-Choicers, but Pro-Lifers are Anti-Abortion activists. It's so much bullshit. Anyways. If you want to continue this conversation, start posting in the subforum, or you will be banned. I'm anti-abortion (I also wouldn't mind being referred to as that on this issue but I'm also basically pro-life all around so that works for me too), I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you in regard to the rest. Pro-abortion implies that you are in favor of abortion. Pro-choice in reference to the abortion issue simply implies that you are in favor of letting their be a choice (currently on the part of the mother) whether or not she wants to carry to term or have an abortion. *Pro used as both a prefix and a preposition in this case is defined as: being in favor of or championing. It is possible for someone to be morally against the idea of abortions and yet still be in favor of letting the mothers making that choice and they've given a variety of different reasons for it. So, I guess I'm opening up the story again. Pro-abortion implies that you are in favor of abortions, 'pro-abortions being legal in some or all cases' would be the lengthy version of what the term 'pro-choice' is being used for. I do agree that both 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' are misleading and meant to make the other side look bad. See, I understand that, but I disagree. Pro-abortion simply means you support the legalization of abortion. It's like saying pro-capital punishment; I certainly don't want every criminal killed, but I want the option there in cases where it's deemed necessary. To break it down so literally would mean anyone anti-abortion is entirely against abortion; I'm certainly not against it in all cases. If someone will die without an abortion, I think it's her legal right to defend her life, even if it means having an abortion. Plenty of pro-life people think rape and incest are exceptions too. If being pro-abortion means you want abortions performed, then being pro-capital punishment means you want people to be killed.
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:21 am
Also when dealing with individuals who refer to you as anti-abortion, it is difficult to accept that it's out of bounds to call them pro-abortion. Half the time I read an article on the abortion debate, the terms used are pro-choice and anti-abortion. Either do pro-choice and pro-life, or pro-abortion and anti-abortion. This whole "Oh we can do it, but don't you dare!" hissy fit is getting a bit tedious. I get annoyed with certain pro-life publications for this reason, the insistence on using pro-life and pro-abortion, or worse, anti-life. If they'd use anti-abortion with pro-abortion, I'd read them more often.
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:03 pm
lymelady Semiremis I.Am Scribblemouse Pro-abortion makes it sound like we're all rabid fans of abortion. We're not: most, I imagine, would see it as a necessary evil at times and would campaign for help for mothers so that there were less abortions in the world even if it's impossible to have none. Call yourselves anti-abortion all you like, but calling the other side pro-abortion doesn't ring true. Sure it does. First of all, you know you are not supposed to post in the main forum. If you want to post in our guild at all, stick to the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life subforum. Secondly, Pro-abortion only sounds like that to you because of your guilty conscience. When someone is Pro-Gay Rights, does that mean they're going to go out and get a gay marriage? No. Does it mean they enjoy watching gay couples making out, or watching gay porn? No. It just means they support gays having legal rights. Same thing with people who are Pro-Death Sentence. Do they get off watching people be executed? No. They just believe that the death sentence is a viable method of dealing with criminals, and should be legal. Pro-Abortion is exactly the same thing. Pro-Abortion means you want abortion to be legal. End of story. Anti-Abortion means you want abortion to be illegal. End of story. I'm personally going to stick with Pro-Choice and Pro-Life, because those are everyone's preferred names, and I don't have a problem with that. But I'm a little sick of Pro-Choicers acting like Pro-Abortion means something that it doesn't. Especially since Pro-Choice isn't the right name at all. It's complete propaganda. Pro-Choice? The only choice you are supporting that we are not is the choice to legally have an abortion, but the name makes it sound like Pro-Choicers are paragons of freedom. You're not. It is one single choice, that even your side frequently claims is only a necessary evil. I wouldn't mind being called Anti-Abortion as long as your side was called Pro-Abortion. If we are called Anti-Abortion while you are Pro-Choice, though, there is an unbalance. Pro-Life is propaganda too, although I personally think it is a less heinous one than Pro-Choice. But when you get to use your propaganda and we don't, you come off as the paragons of freedom, while we're the evil people trying to take away your abortions. It's something that really pisses me off about the Associated Press, that they actually call Pro-Choicers Pro-Choicers, but Pro-Lifers are Anti-Abortion activists. It's so much bullshit. Anyways. If you want to continue this conversation, start posting in the subforum, or you will be banned. I'm anti-abortion (I also wouldn't mind being referred to as that on this issue but I'm also basically pro-life all around so that works for me too), I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you in regard to the rest. Pro-abortion implies that you are in favor of abortion. Pro-choice in reference to the abortion issue simply implies that you are in favor of letting their be a choice (currently on the part of the mother) whether or not she wants to carry to term or have an abortion. *Pro used as both a prefix and a preposition in this case is defined as: being in favor of or championing. It is possible for someone to be morally against the idea of abortions and yet still be in favor of letting the mothers making that choice and they've given a variety of different reasons for it. So, I guess I'm opening up the story again. Pro-abortion implies that you are in favor of abortions, 'pro-abortions being legal in some or all cases' would be the lengthy version of what the term 'pro-choice' is being used for. I do agree that both 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' are misleading and meant to make the other side look bad. See, I understand that, but I disagree. Pro-abortion simply means you support the legalization of abortion. It's like saying pro-capital punishment; I certainly don't want every criminal killed, but I want the option there in cases where it's deemed necessary. To break it down so literally would mean anyone anti-abortion is entirely against abortion; I'm certainly not against it in all cases. If someone will die without an abortion, I think it's her legal right to defend her life, even if it means having an abortion. Plenty of pro-life people think rape and incest are exceptions too. If being pro-abortion means you want abortions performed, then being pro-capital punishment means you want people to be killed. It has to be broken down so literally because of the implication it carries when taken so literally, although you did make a really good point and I partly agree with you.
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:31 pm
I agree that it is a bad implication when taken so literally. I prefer to use pro-choice and pro-life. And I do understand that there are people who use it in a derogatory way.
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:13 pm
Semiremis, I understand your point, and I personally use Pro-Life/Pro-Choice out of respect for both sides.
To sum my point up, people throwing a hissy fit over the term Pro-Abortion being used for Pro-Choicers is like people throwing a hissy fit over the term child being used for fetuses. Both terms are accurate, they just don't like the implications that they give the terms. So I get kind of annoyed.
Like lymelady said, Pro-Abortion does not mean "Likes abortions" any more than Pro-Capital Punishment means "Likes executions." So why is it such a big deal?
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:25 pm
I.Am Semiremis, I understand your point, and I personally use Pro-Life/Pro-Choice out of respect for both sides. To sum my point up, people throwing a hissy fit over the term Pro-Abortion being used for Pro-Choicers is like people throwing a hissy fit over the term child being used for fetuses. Both terms are accurate, they just don't like the implications that they give the terms. So I get kind of annoyed. Like lymelady said, Pro-Abortion does not mean "Likes abortions" any more than Pro-Capital Punishment means "Likes executions." So why is it such a big deal? I think the reason why they hate it, is because some actually use the term pro-abortion as that being the only choice for pregnancies (yes I've seen people who really do believe that every women should abort no matter what). The others don't want to make it seem that is all they support (even though they pretty much seem to focus on abort) so they call themselves pro-choice instead.
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:14 pm
Bitter_Medicine I.Am Semiremis, I understand your point, and I personally use Pro-Life/Pro-Choice out of respect for both sides. To sum my point up, people throwing a hissy fit over the term Pro-Abortion being used for Pro-Choicers is like people throwing a hissy fit over the term child being used for fetuses. Both terms are accurate, they just don't like the implications that they give the terms. So I get kind of annoyed. Like lymelady said, Pro-Abortion does not mean "Likes abortions" any more than Pro-Capital Punishment means "Likes executions." So why is it such a big deal? I think the reason why they hate it, is because some actually use the term pro-abortion as that being the only choice for pregnancies (yes I've seen people who really do believe that every women should abort no matter what). The others don't want to make it seem that is all they support (even though they pretty much seem to focus on abort) so they call themselves pro-choice instead. But the problem is, the people who push for every woman to abort every pregnancy aren't called Pro-Abortion. They're called other things that better explain their reason for believing that everyone should, essentially, be neutered. I forget what it is at the moment, childless or something, but it isn't even related to the abortion issue, not directly. And they certainly don't call themselves Pro-Abortion. So it is not accurate to say that Pro-Choicers are trying to distance themselves from these Pro-Abortion-ers.
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Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:46 pm
Scribblemouse Pro-abortion makes it sound like we're all rabid fans of abortion. We're not: most, I imagine, would see it as a necessary evil at times and would campaign for help for mothers so that there were less abortions in the world even if it's impossible to have none. Call yourselves anti-abortion all you like, but calling the other side pro-abortion doesn't ring true. *poof* Who was it that said: "I may not believe in what you're saying but I'll fight till the death for your right to say it"? I think that statement right there is a fun one to throw into the debate. What types of assertions can we make about something when we're for the agency but not for the object? It is telling, to say the least. Cornel West came to my school and was talking about Beck and Coutler—among others—and said, "Well, bruddas and sistas, our friends have a right to be wrong!" (Wild applause.) But the statement is a little curious. Aren't we simply fighting against their wrongness to begin with? So what's the harm in squelching the opposition? I'm being a realist when I say: If I'm going to shoot a beam of Righteousness right at and through your argument, maybe it's just better if you don't voice it period. (Of course, from a relativistic point of view, who is right? So my statement isn't nearly as authoritarian as anyone here may think. Put down your Capitalist banners please!) So I question a choicer who stands for agency and not for the object, which is, abortion. Is it not all or nothing? I think with morals that's a legitimate question. *poof*
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Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:50 pm
I.Am Semiremis, I understand your point, and I personally use Pro-Life/Pro-Choice out of respect for both sides. To sum my point up, people throwing a hissy fit over the term Pro-Abortion being used for Pro-Choicers is like people throwing a hissy fit over the term child being used for fetuses. Both terms are accurate, they just don't like the implications that they give the terms. So I get kind of annoyed. Like lymelady said, Pro-Abortion does not mean "Likes abortions" any more than Pro-Capital Punishment means "Likes executions." So why is it such a big deal? It is a big deal when much of the population view that as meaning the individual is in favor of abortion over carrying to term. It's just a semantics thing I think and an issue over those who are trying to misconstrue the reality of the situation.
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Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:03 pm
I.Am Bitter_Medicine I.Am Semiremis, I understand your point, and I personally use Pro-Life/Pro-Choice out of respect for both sides. To sum my point up, people throwing a hissy fit over the term Pro-Abortion being used for Pro-Choicers is like people throwing a hissy fit over the term child being used for fetuses. Both terms are accurate, they just don't like the implications that they give the terms. So I get kind of annoyed. Like lymelady said, Pro-Abortion does not mean "Likes abortions" any more than Pro-Capital Punishment means "Likes executions." So why is it such a big deal? I think the reason why they hate it, is because some actually use the term pro-abortion as that being the only choice for pregnancies (yes I've seen people who really do believe that every women should abort no matter what). The others don't want to make it seem that is all they support (even though they pretty much seem to focus on abort) so they call themselves pro-choice instead. But the problem is, the people who push for every woman to abort every pregnancy aren't called Pro-Abortion. They're called other things that better explain their reason for believing that everyone should, essentially, be neutered. I forget what it is at the moment, childless or something, but it isn't even related to the abortion issue, not directly. And they certainly don't call themselves Pro-Abortion. So it is not accurate to say that Pro-Choicers are trying to distance themselves from these Pro-Abortion-ers. Child free just means they don't want children themselves but doesn't necessary push abortion on every women. All the people I say that were in favor of abortion called themselves pro-abortion. Maybe they call themselves something different now.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:58 pm
Semiremis I.Am Semiremis, I understand your point, and I personally use Pro-Life/Pro-Choice out of respect for both sides. To sum my point up, people throwing a hissy fit over the term Pro-Abortion being used for Pro-Choicers is like people throwing a hissy fit over the term child being used for fetuses. Both terms are accurate, they just don't like the implications that they give the terms. So I get kind of annoyed. Like lymelady said, Pro-Abortion does not mean "Likes abortions" any more than Pro-Capital Punishment means "Likes executions." So why is it such a big deal? It is a big deal when much of the population view that as meaning the individual is in favor of abortion over carrying to term. It's just a semantics thing I think and an issue over those who are trying to misconstrue the reality of the situation. I would agree with you if the majority of the population saw it that way, but I honestly don't believe that they do. For one thing, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pro-abortion It's a dictionary definition. People who equate pro-abortion with being in favor of abortion over carrying to term are generally rabidly pro-life and will always, always equate anyone pro-choice with being in favor of abortion over carrying to term; the term pro-choice doesn't change things. For another, the frequent use of the word anti-abortion in publications such as the New York Times, and Washington Post, etc. makes it a pretty common term, and as such, the natural flipside is pro-abortion. Even when a pro-life activist is killed, he or she is referred to as an anti-abortion activist. Unless someone would like to make the argument that it is okay to say anti-abortion instead of pro-life but not okay to say pro-abortion instead of pro-choice, I can't quite see the problem. In a debate setting, I think it is common courtesy to use the terms that people prefer, as long as it's a reasonable request. Pro-choice is a reasonable term, pro-life is a reasonable term, they can both be argued against as inaccurate but everyone knows what they mean.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:53 pm
Semiremis I.Am Semiremis, I understand your point, and I personally use Pro-Life/Pro-Choice out of respect for both sides. To sum my point up, people throwing a hissy fit over the term Pro-Abortion being used for Pro-Choicers is like people throwing a hissy fit over the term child being used for fetuses. Both terms are accurate, they just don't like the implications that they give the terms. So I get kind of annoyed. Like lymelady said, Pro-Abortion does not mean "Likes abortions" any more than Pro-Capital Punishment means "Likes executions." So why is it such a big deal? It is a big deal when much of the population view that as meaning the individual is in favor of abortion over carrying to term. It's just a semantics thing I think and an issue over those who are trying to misconstrue the reality of the situation. To paraphrase an old phrase, if much of the population jumped off a bridge, would you? Even if we assume that most of the population does think that way, that doesn't mean they are right, and it doesn't mean that I have to think that way. For me, it means that I need to show them the error of their ways.
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:55 pm
Bitter_Medicine I.Am Bitter_Medicine I.Am Semiremis, I understand your point, and I personally use Pro-Life/Pro-Choice out of respect for both sides. To sum my point up, people throwing a hissy fit over the term Pro-Abortion being used for Pro-Choicers is like people throwing a hissy fit over the term child being used for fetuses. Both terms are accurate, they just don't like the implications that they give the terms. So I get kind of annoyed. Like lymelady said, Pro-Abortion does not mean "Likes abortions" any more than Pro-Capital Punishment means "Likes executions." So why is it such a big deal? I think the reason why they hate it, is because some actually use the term pro-abortion as that being the only choice for pregnancies (yes I've seen people who really do believe that every women should abort no matter what). The others don't want to make it seem that is all they support (even though they pretty much seem to focus on abort) so they call themselves pro-choice instead. But the problem is, the people who push for every woman to abort every pregnancy aren't called Pro-Abortion. They're called other things that better explain their reason for believing that everyone should, essentially, be neutered. I forget what it is at the moment, childless or something, but it isn't even related to the abortion issue, not directly. And they certainly don't call themselves Pro-Abortion. So it is not accurate to say that Pro-Choicers are trying to distance themselves from these Pro-Abortion-ers. Child free just means they don't want children themselves but doesn't necessary push abortion on every women. All the people I say that were in favor of abortion called themselves pro-abortion. Maybe they call themselves something different now. That is the way the Pro-Choicers on Gaia divide themselves, but that's not representative of all Pro-Choicers. And Child Free means that they believe that no one should have children, so that all of humanity dies off naturally. Thus, they do believe that all women should have abortions if they get pregnant. I'm not saying that they all believe in forcing it on people, but most people who call themselves Pro-Abortion don't either.
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:31 am
Oh, my.
Many a debate have I participated in, in which pro-choice opponents have insisted on calling me and everyone else who is "pro-life" as the immortal "ANTI-CHOICE", all the while justifying to me calling themselves pro-choice. You're not pro-every-choice (including euthenasia, murder, or shirt color) just as I'm not, say, "Pro-all-bacteria-life" or "pro-phytoplankton".
Sigh, yawn, and get over it choicers. Let's embrace the terms we're very comfortable with debating with, and get on with the debate, because they waste a lot of time with semantics.
Pro-Abortion, Pro-death, Anti-Woman, Anti-sex, Anti-feminist, etc...
They're all charged terms, solely determined to elicit a more visceral reaction than was necessary. Hard to debate with that high level of neutrality, sometimes, but you should at least avoid avoid justifying those kinds of terms if you know why you're using them in the manner that you are.
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:41 pm
McPhee Oh, my.
Many a debate have I participated in, in which pro-choice opponents have insisted on calling me and everyone else who is "pro-life" as the immortal "ANTI-CHOICE", all the while justifying to me calling themselves pro-choice. You're not pro-every-choice (including euthenasia, murder, or shirt color) just as I'm not, say, "Pro-all-bacteria-life" or "pro-phytoplankton".
Sigh, yawn, and get over it choicers. Let's embrace the terms we're very comfortable with debating with, and get on with the debate, because they waste a lot of time with semantics.
Pro-Abortion, Pro-death, Anti-Woman, Anti-sex, Anti-feminist, etc...
They're all charged terms, solely determined to elicit a more visceral reaction than was necessary. Hard to debate with that high level of neutrality, sometimes, but you should at least avoid avoid justifying those kinds of terms if you know why you're using them in the manner that you are. What's with the post going all over the place lately? It's confusing. Anyways I noticed something. Every time we use a word in debate such as baby, human, etc....they say we are using emotional ploy yet they think there is nothing wrong using words such as anti-women, anti-choice, parasite, etc...why is that? I don't really debate much anymore because how it seems so unfair and unbalanced. I try to use medical facts but everyone dismisses it and just say a bunch of things that are far from facts (some really need to learn biology and what a real parasite is).
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