Welcome to Gaia! ::

I decided I wasn't going to debate this anymore, but I'll say the basics for the last time. XP


It says the way she acts around Cloud in FFVII... not, 'What initially made her start to notice Cloud.' To me, being so blunt as to say, 'the way she does around Cloud in FFVII.', meaning, the entire game, not the begining, is proof enough of what the quote really means.

Aeris obviously doesn't realize the similarities. She misses Zack, hence why she brings him up all the time. XP And she meets Cloud and wants things to be different. We find out later that Zack broke her heart. Obviously she's going to want to see them as different people. The game shows us enough that the Cloud at the beginning of the game and the Cloud after the lifestream are two different people. That Cloud is completely messed up, and Cloud says so himself that he wanted to be Zack. But, if you needed more proof, Madien says what I stated above and all those other quotes, they just seem to hand it to you on a platter. They show you just how little Aeris truely knows about Cloud, and about how similar the two men really are. XP

Really, tell me how you debate the Ultimania saying,




Honestly, how many more quotes do you need saying that Cloud takes on Zack's personality or persona? I even defined persona for those who didn't understand. Heck, there's even another quote I'll add if you need an explaination of what Jenova's cells can do.


Adjusts appearence, speech, and BEHAVIOUR. So, uh... I think I also defined behaviour in the thread. XP

And then, if you still need proof, the CC Ultimania tells us,


So why keep using the words personality and persona if it's not true? This is such an important part of the game and I'm just really sorry so many people fail to understand it. It's really not that hard, and then on top of everything, if you did find it hard, they spell it out for you in sources like this. *shrugs*

Oh well, I'm done debating this, because frankly, it's not a debate. It's simple facts about the game. XP

The actual purpose of this thread was to give other people the information and tools I found so they too can show people the simple truth. XP

It ALSO says that the person Aerith thought was Cloud, the things the thought made him unique, were the things he copied from Zack. Her early statements are shown to be completely hollow by the revelations of later chapters.

Besides that, the novella's blatantly in error as to when she met Zack, and has apparently been dropped by SE.

Furthermore, the Ultimania has confirmed that it is because of Zack's persona that Aerith acts as she does towards Cloud in FF7.

In short, if we count Maiden as Canon, Aerith's statements in the early chapters in regards to Cloud are nothing more than self delusion and continued phantom chasing. If maiden has been cast out (if it counted to begin with) then it doesn't even matter.

Yes it does. Unless otherwise stated, that which comes later overrides that which comes earlier. It's known as a 'ret-con'.



Yes, it does matter. What happens in Crisis Core affects how Aerith behaves in FF7. It explains how she acts in FF7. To say that the past has no bearing is silly.



Hi giant strawman! How are you!



Because SHE BELIEVES SHE HAS BEEN JILTED. She think Zack left HER. Or do you wish



This is a non sequitor. While what you've said about Aerith isn't wrong, it doesn't mean she needs to confess her love regarding Zack while admitting to Cloud that she never got to know him for who he was, as opposed to who he was being.



You say this like Cloud was doing it intentionally. Cloud was not. "Under the influence of Jenova". Later, after breaking free of the shell personality, he refers to it as being "trapped in an illusion"



Hello, strawman! Nowhere. We were saying Cloud became a pastiche, bits of himself, bits of Zack, bits of Jenova and Sphiroth's influence.




Which means that those bits where he uses that posture are the genuine article. It DOES NOT mean that there was no influence involved.



No, Cloud without the influence is a lot more active, more cheeful, and dorkier.



You do realize that 'his memories' is refering to Cloud adopting Zack's memories, right?



I note you don't quote the part where this is confirmed. For shame.



And? Aerith eventually wising to the facade isn't an objctionable idea. This isn't a binary proposition, Pink.



You'll note that neither quote says she'd figured out the reality, just that she'd percieved the fake.



And you're doing it by completely ignoring the evidence brought forth in both Crisis Core and the latest Ultimania. IE- not well.

Put simply- Arguing that what happened to Cloud's head in FF7 was NOT a mind alteration that he was not in control of is to ignore the entire identity crisis and restoration arcs of the game's plot, one of the biggest plot points of the second part of the game.

Cloud, under Jenova's Influence, was trapped in an illusion, a fake personality cobbled together from himself, Zack, and other bits and pieces. A full personality it was not, and it had major holes. This really isn't worth argument. What is worth argument is what portions were what, but attacking a strawman, which is basically what your above is, will not cut the mustard.

Ryushikaze, have I told you yet that I love you? XP Either way, everything you said was very well put.
This isn't a personal attack, but please read your own definitions. This is the exact definition of persona I used, which clearly states:

Did you read the first part and not the second? If someone is acting out a persona, their inner personality is not being shown. This is the most basic of literary terms, and I understand not everyone studies English, but there's a description for you right there of what a character with a persona is doing. If someone has a persona their inner personality is not represented. It's tucked away inside, behind everything they reveal to the other characters. Though, in Cloud's case, it's tucked so deep even he does not realize that he's doing it.


No one's claiming it wasn't. Tifa reveals it and brings it out of him. But it's not evident and not present during the first half of the game.

Need to see why we saw Zeris from the original game?
She says, "first-love" and then says, "it was nothing". Are we suppose to believe Aeris throws around the word love like it can mean anything? This alone is the most basic of evidence that she's confused about Zack. She thinks he might have run off with another girl, although it's more likely that this is a facade she's made herself believe, since CC shows us Aeris reacting to Zack returning to the lifestream. I think that was the writers linking these two things, saying, "If you didn't get it from the game, yes, Aeris is lying and making up a story she's come to even believe herself because it's less painful than the truth." Oh, and Aeris gets confused about tons of things in the game. I saw it as part of her personality that she's a very confused young woman. Not only do we have the above, but there's also her own identity. She doesn't believe she's special and denies it. Just another occurance that Aeris can be straightforward, saying what she believes with confidence, but she isn't infallible.

Why are Cleris so defensive when it comes to CC as to put words in our mouths? *shrugs* Let me explain why people believe CC proves Zeris. And no, it is NOT because we see them as a couple in the past and *poof*, means it's canon forever. I'm getting extremely tired of me saying, "Well, there's lots of Zeris proof in CC..." and people instantly acting like I'm some sort of idiot thinking that seeing a couple together and being cute and that's why they are canon in the complicated story that follows. Urg, it's just getting me angry now. Here's the truth, as I've had to say more than once. We see the deep relationship they have and many people's assumptions that Aeris' lines in FFVII about their relationship not being that big of a deal, is in fact, denial and her trying to distance herself from the all pain she's felt with Zack being gone. We even see Aeris somehow realizing at the end of the game that Zack's going into the lifestream (because of her ability with the earth). We also have a line from official sources saying that her feelings for Zack explain her actions in FFVII. The line isn't talking about CC anymore, it's talking about FFVII. So how is that not relivant? It is a line from CC, talking about FFVII and the apparent "LT". So yes, it's very relivant and spells it out for you.

Also, last thing I'm going to comment on. I can't remember if it was here or somewhere else but I'm getting sick and tired of people saying that Aeris and Zack were too young to fall in love. Aeris is 16. Right? Well, if you are going to tell me that 16 is too young for love, than why not try to convince me that Squall and Rinoa are just "puppy-love" while you're at it? Guess how old they are? 17. OMG! One freakin year. And sorry, I'm having trouble locating Zack's age, so if someone could add that in, that would be appreciated. XP Either way, next time someone tries to tell me Zeris in CC is meaningless based on their age, I'm going to tell them to play FFVIII. XP

I don't even know why I'm replying to this. It's just so silly. If this isn't enough to show you, I don't really know what could.

No, you're entirely right. The memory sequences you can unlock suggest they spent a good amount of time together, just being together, enough for Zack to serious consider proposing to her (he was planning on getting out of SOLDIER after Nibleheim)
Cloud and Aerith, meanwhile, had about three or four weeks. I don't need to tell anyone the crap they were dealing with during that time period.

Plus, if we are going by time alone, and Aeris and Zack are together for 2 years, that's a heck of a lot longer than Cloud even knows Aeris, let alone reacts with her, let alone could grow feelings for her. *shrugs* To me, if you have Aeris in your party and therefore see every scene she could be in, then you've seen all that Cloud interacts with Aeris during her life. Whereas there's probably tons of Zeris interaction that could be missing. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

And not only that, but if we go by what we see from Reminiscence, he didn't have Aerith in his party save when she had to be included (he had Tifa there every time she could be in the party, by contrast)



What they're referring to is whether or not you do the 'right' things to unlock an extra scene around mid game, IIRC. But that doesn't change the 23 simple wishes, her promise to Zack, her 89 letters, or anything else like that.

Reminiscence of FF7 is a side movie included in the DVD, and it's a retrospective on some of the major scenes from the game, interspersed with some scenes of Cloud taking and making calls and meeting Barret as he kicks about making deliveries, the last of which is Cloud stopping by the side of the road to call Tifa, the only call he makes on his own.