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Dinu amaru Anzullu Ziaru

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:20 pm


Divash
Rather than keeping my religion and my social life separate. quote]

Yes, it is people like you who do more openly display there religion,
that I was curious about, but I guess since such subjects probably only come up with friends, it does not make one as big of a target as I was assuming? Well I can not really be to shocked I only really know the Beatles of those you mentioned.

As mentione sometimes it comes up, but has it ever caused an uncomfortable conversational moment? True that they openly speak of there baptism etc... But since it is the dominate religion around most probably assume you are to. I do not see anything wrong with speaking of ones own religous customs etc.. However I would have thought it would cause far more grief then it seems to actually do.

But yes it is true it is not those opinions of those who are against such, which I am to concern myself with.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:32 pm


kingpinsqeezels
Actually, Divash is lying. On the weekends, me, her, and Barack Obama all get together to talk about how great being left handed is and how righties are totally lame...but that's beside the point.

Basically I'm like Dis. I'm not a true Jew (yet), but people still think of me as Jewish because I'm the closest thing they've got. I like the curiosity, I like being different, and sometimes I even enjoy setting the silly misrepresentations straight. No one really starts with the "Hole in the sheet" thing, but trust me, I've heard some weird ones.

None of my friends from around here are Jewish, but I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by tolerant people who don't mind to listen to my occasional spiels on Purim, Shabbat, or whatever else I can wedge in to a conversation.

However when I was in high school, some boys in my biology class took to calling me "Jew", but I didn't let it bother me. These same boys thought Jesus made the Earth, not like I was going to take crap from them.

Anyway, long story short I don't let it interfere with my social life. I would prefer to have a few more Jewish boys around...and I guess girls would be okay too. xd


Normally I would comment on that, but It seems there are no good runners this year. I know this is probably a stupid question or should be a thread on its own but is it true that most Jewish people hold democratic view?

I am surprised that anyone would actually want that kind of attention thou.

Haha, I that is among the most misinformed view I have heard in sometime, but I must say it seems such confusion is normal and that is partly what drove me to research Judaism and to my surprise even would be converts seem to hold a better understanding of there chosen religion then life long Christens.

Dinu amaru Anzullu Ziaru


Dinu amaru Anzullu Ziaru

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:41 pm


YvetteEmilieDupont
lol i'm a convert (not really since i haven't even begun the process, not even a foot in the door) (anyways)

so taking that into mind you can't take my answer seriously in any way shape, form, or manner.


lol.

I think judaism isn't an issue inless you make an issue. You have to be mature to a certain level to have it not be an issue, and if you aren't up to that level, then yes it will be an issue, but that is like anything.

Judaism causes issues in my life, but because i'm changing my life, so really it isn't Judaism that is causing the issues, but me and my choices in life.


Well I am in the same boat as you, I have started the process yet.

So although I can think and or theroize, I felt it best to get the answer from some more sociallyactive and experienced individuals.
My concern was not just in the realm of school yard style taughts, but how it may effect my social status, career, married life and anything else in the future.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:13 am


Politics:
Let's move that one over to the Politics thread in the main page of the guild forum, since it's likely to go off into tangents.

Social status and career:
Yes, being Jewish affects those. Some employers will be more ready to hire and promote a person of one religion or another (sometimes Judaism), because they know what the religion stands for and they respect it, and assume that every person who's a part of that religion must necessarily follow that system of morals or ethics at all times. I wish it were true. wink But some employers will be loathe to hire someone of a religion they don't know much about, because they don't know that religion's code of behavior/ethics, so they don't know if the individual will be the sort of employee they want or the sort of person they want as a part of the workplace. Too, you'll sometimes find an employer who's met one mean, dishonest, or rude Jew, and thinks we all must be like that. It's cliche, but it's true: What one Christian does only reflects upon himself, but what one Jew does reflects upon all Israel. My previous employer actually hired me, I'm pretty sure, because she'd never met anyone Jewish, and was looking for someone to pick on. Seriously, every day there was a sneering comment about my "Jew clothes" or my "Jew food" or the fact that I didn't work Friday afternoons because I was "Jew lazy and starting Saturday early again." But for the most part, good employers will look at your job qualifications, not at your religion.

Marriage:
Absolutely it makes a difference in marriage. Jewish law says that a marriage contract is valid between a Jew and a Jew, but not between a Jew and a non-Jew. If you're a Jew, chances are good that you want to marry another Jew. If you're a convert, doubly so, because you chose Judaism for a reason, and you're probably interested in someone else who is either choosing Judaism, or at least choosing to identify with their Jewish heritage and traditions. Two Jews can also be a mixed marriage, though -- if one of you identifies as Jewish by ethnicity only, while the other keeps the laws of Shabbat, kashrut, modesty, family purity, and so on... well, let's just say it's just as hard as a Jew married to a non-Jew, if not harder, because there's an assumption of commonality.

Converts knowing stuff:
True. It's because conversion involves at least a year's worth of intensive religious studies, lots of one-on-one conversations with one's rabbi, classes, weekly (or more) synagogue attendance... You learn a lot during your time as a conversion candidate. Then, because you chose Judaism, you'll probably spend the rest of your life being just as fascinated by it as you were during that first whirlwind year or more, and you'll probably want to take classes or do individual studying for most of your life. People who are part of the same belief system for their entire lives do absorb a great deal of the culture of that system, and they understand a great many of the rules and social norms, but they may or may not be taught the nitty-gritty details of why they do or say certain things in certain ways.

Openly displaying religion:
It's not that I display my religion, it's that I don't bother hiding it. If someone's going to hate, mistrust, or just feel uneasy around me because I'm Jewish, that's something I want to know before I grow to like them and think of them as a friend. Having a friendship or potential friendship spoiled because of religious or ethnic bigotry hurts. Having a stranger decide they don't like me is really no skin off my nose.

Safety is another issue. I'll address it in a separate post.

Divash
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Divash
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:48 am


Dinu's question leads me to believe he's worried about being persecuted if he becomes a Jew. This is not just a silly fear, not just a thing of the past. Anti-Jewish sentiments are all over the world, all over your country, your province or state, your city, maybe your neighborhood. It's such a big issue that 1500 years ago, Moshe ben Maimon (Maimonides) codified the questions that one should ask a person who comes and says he wants to be a Jew. The very first question is, literally, "Are you crazy? In these times, with the anti-Jewish sentiment as strong as it is, you really want to associate yourself with our People?" Times have not changed all that much, have they? It's always been dangerous to be a Jew, and even to associate with Jews. So why do we do it? Why do we do so many things that make us stand out as different, knowing that people will dislike us, fear us, hate us? What is it about the Jew that is so threatening that people have to hit us, fire us from jobs, run us out of towns and countries, kill us, try to wipe us out, just to control it? We don't know. And why don't we hide our Jewishness, lie about it if asked, save our lives through silence or deception? It's hard to identify the reasons even in our own hearts, let alone try to describe the reasons to each other or anyone else.

We do know about the Passover story, though. Not the part about the slavery, or the part with the plagues, or the part where Moses lifts his staff and Hashem parts the Sea of Reeds so that the Israelites can cross. There's one little part in the middle that's fascinating, and it's almost never mentioned. It's the part between the Ninth Plague (Darkness) and the Tenth Plague (Death of the Firstborn). Read the first ten chapters of Exodus and take notes: Nine plagues happened. Each time a new plague occurred, Moses would say to the Israelites, "Okay, so there's going to be a plague. Hashem will send a plague to the Egyptians, they'll get scared, and they'll let us go." Each time there was a plague, Par'oh (Pharaoh, in English) would say, "That's all very well, but no, you can't go." Then in chapter 11, Moses says, "Okay, there's only one more plague. Hashem will send this plague, and then for sure we'll get to go. Now, here's what you do, before the tenth plague happens..."

And Moses tells them to take a sheep out of their flocks, one for every household. They're to parade this sheep around for four days. Egyptians are going to love this, because sheep are a holy animal to them, much like cows to modern Hindus. Then on the fourth day, they're to take this sheep into the public area, where every Eyptian and his mother's pet crocodile can see them, and they're going to slaughter that sheep. They're going to publicly kill the animal that the Egyptians revere. Not only that, oh no! They're then going to butcher it, roast the meat in public, feast on it in public, right where the Egyptians can see. Then they're going to take the blood from the sheep and splash it on their doorposts. That way, even if any Egyptian was left who hadn't seen them killing, cooking, and eating the sheep, they'll still see the sheep's blood, and know what was done.

Then they're supposed to go to bed and sleep until morning. In the morning, all the Egyptian firstborn will be dead, and they'll all -- Par'oh included -- say, "Get the $*@# out of here, you sheep-killing, baby-killing, horrible persons!" And then the Israelites are supposed to just waltz out of there, merry as you please, and the Egyptians aren't going to chase them down and kill them to get back at them???

Here's where the miracle of Passover happens, in my opinion. The Plagues aren't the miracles. They're just God, doing things that God is capable of doing because God is all-powerful. That's nothing new, is it? We all know that God is the maker and ruler of all things; even the Egyptians had to know it by now. The parting of the Reed Sea? Again, that's just God doing what God does: showing his might in the world. It's awesome, it's terrifyingly beautiful to behold, but in the end, we all know that an all-powerful God can do stuff that involves power.

You have to understand, there had already been nine plagues at this point, and not once had the promise of freedom come true because of any of them. How in the world are the Israelites supposed to believe that it will happen because of the Tenth Plague? Moses is 0-for-9 at this point!

The real Passover miracle happens, I think, when these downtrodden slaves heard what they were supposed to do ...and they did it.

These people were oppressed harshly for four hundred years. They were made to labor, they were mocked, they were sat upon, spat upon, treated like property, given no reason to have hope or faith in anything. Yet, when told, "Go and desecrate something that is sacred to Egypt, and then splash the evidence all over your doorposts. Thumb your nose at what all of Egypt holds dear. Go ahead. I'll save you this time. No, really," they did it.

And not only did they do it, the Talmud tells us, but some Egyptians did it, too. Why? Because they wanted so much to be a part of this People, to be attached to the God of Israel, that they were willing to risk death at the hands of their fellow Egyptians, under the hope that the God of Israel would take them on, too. What faith it took, to believe that Hashem would know the difference between an Egyptian oppressor and an Egyptian believer in Hashem! To believe it so strongly that they were willing to slaughter their own (former) holy symbol, to eat its meat, to splash its blood on their doors! They had guts, didn't they? They, too, put out the biggest sign that they could for all the neighbors: "Our allegiance has changed. We are not with you anymore, Mother Egypt. We are with them now, these slaves that are about to pick up and walk out without so much as a kiss-my-foot or have-an-apple. Nertz to you."

That, good neighbor, is faith. And that's why I would not think of myself as a real Jew if I couldn't talk about Shabbat with people who talk about Sabbath in church; if I was too afraid put a mezuzah on every doorpost of my home, inside and out. Being open about my Jewishness? That's my slaughtered sheep, that's my bloody doorpost. That's my "Nertz to you, and nertz to your Par'oh!" for the majority culture who think I should just accept Jesus or Islam or the Baha'u'llah. The People of Israel have kept to the faith in Hashem for 3,800 years. Jews in Nazi-controlled Europe put up mezuzot on their doorposts, too, even knowing that the very next day they would surely be taken to the death camps. I'm not going to be the one that breaks the chain, just because someone gives me a dirty look on the subway.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:59 am


Aye.

See, a lot of my friends are either non-believers, or agnostics. It gets frustrating because they always want to know,"Why do you of all people choose an organized religion? Why believe in G-d, can't you see no evidence exists to support it?" I have to remind them constantly that not all evidence is scientific, and not religion is bad when you make it your own. The silly thing is, I think in a way Judaism chose me as much as I chose it. (Despite being an inanimate object, but oh well.)

Oh, and Dinu, there's a political discussion somewhere on the forum. Hillary Vs. Obama is the most current. We could chat there about all that good stuff.

kingpinsqeezels


Dinu amaru Anzullu Ziaru

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:37 am


Divash
I think you're asking some really good questions, Dinu. Most of us have answers, and most of our answers aren't bad, either.


Also I forgot to mention in my last comment, I wished to apologize for the delay in my response, I have been busy but I will get to them slowly but surely.

Thank you (and everyone else) for answer them, I imagine I am probably start to wear on your nerves. Yes, I intend to speak with a Rabbi evantually, but as bad as it sounds I am very shy and considering his status it makes it all the harder to summon the courage and I want to make sure I have some considerable knowledge on it before I can consider it.
Tthe statements of how he holds my religous life in the palm of his hand (basically), type of statement did not help sweatdrop Kidding I know it is not meant to frighten.

I know of all the local religous facilites, so no worries there just got to gather the courage.
Thank you very much on the advice on how to approach it is one of the main concerns I had about proceeding.
I must say it seems as if there treat the whole procedure rather secretive,
I guess it prevents the isolation that I discussed early thou.
I just never heard of anyother religions approaching it this way.

Thanks
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:37 pm


Just a note on employment: My dad's a doctor, so his hospital group all loves him around Christmas and Easter since he doesn't really care working then. So, Judaism and work can be useful. blaugh

darkphoenix1247
Vice Captain


kingpinsqeezels

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:25 pm


As horrible as it sounds, I can't wait for time and a half or time x2 to work on Christmas and other major Christian holidays. (I want to work in medicine too)

Don't you want to be a doctor, or am I just making that up?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:55 pm


kingpinsqeezels
As horrible as it sounds, I can't wait for time and a half or time x2 to work on Christmas and other major Christian holidays. (I want to work in medicine too)

Don't you want to be a doctor, or am I just making that up?

I do, but I'm a bit concerned with the path of healthcare right now, though.... And the insane competition of pre-med students....

darkphoenix1247
Vice Captain


LordNeuf
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:25 pm


darkphoenix1247
I'm a bit concerned with the path of healthcare right now, though.... And the insane competition of pre-med students....


Competition for the highest paying job in America? there's a reason it's insane.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:12 am


I have had a few problems with friends not understanding (no matter how many times I will explain it to them) that no, I will not go out with them and get drunk on Saturday and no I will not go out and have ribs with them on cheap rib nights at the bar.

My own partner thinks that this is the silliest thing, ever. But I do not include her in my religious decisions at all, she just needs to respect my habits.

My family though... although they respect my wishes, my father loves to make anti-Semitic remarks (jokingly) albeit, sometimes he will seriously state how 'Arabs and Jews have something wrong with their heads'.

I still haven't been able to get a hold of a rabbi, and I think after I do make that huge step that everything will be a bit better. Right now It's only as if I am an ex-Christian in utero.

We'll see.

In media res


ChiJadey

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:19 pm


darkphoenix1247
kingpinsqeezels
As horrible as it sounds, I can't wait for time and a half or time x2 to work on Christmas and other major Christian holidays. (I want to work in medicine too)

Don't you want to be a doctor, or am I just making that up?

I do, but I'm a bit concerned with the path of healthcare right now, though.... And the insane competition of pre-med students....
This might be a slightly biased opinion, but have you considered other medical professions (Dental/Optometry/Osteopathy/etc.)? The competition is a tad bit less cutthroat for most of these schools and you do end up becoming a doctor and helping people in the end. Also, it is not mandatory to have a million and a half on-site hours prior to applying to these schools like it is for most med schools. They are looking for some experience to show that you know what you are getting yourself into, but they don't require you to be superhuman. Don't get me wrong, there are still high requirements for entry and the workload is intense, but it is a bit more managable for the most part.

I'm a first year student at SUNY Optometry in NYC right now, so if you are at all interested let me know. 3nodding

...I haven't introduced myself. How rude. My name is Jade. heart
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:33 pm


I'm hoping that whoever our next president may be, they do something about post secondary education. The costs, the facilities, the educators: all of these things to be worked on heavily ESPECIALLY in the medical fields. You have to fight for a spot in nursing school, which is really ridiculous because it is the field that hurts the most as far as finding enough people.

You could always be a PA. I want to eventually be nurse practitioner, but I have neither the money or time to do it right now.

And Res, I get that whole business with my family. They roll their eyes every time I tell them I don't want ham on my sandwich...or anywhere near my food. biggrin

kingpinsqeezels

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