Not sure anymore

[CogitoErgoGeek]

Princessofwhatever

snip

I have several comments and questions based on the things you have said:

1. Can you defend the claim that humans share universal morals? I find this doubtful.

2. You give multiple examples about feelings leading to good choices, but it would be pretty simple to give examples of feelings leading to bad choices. The problem is that feelings are fickle. Feelings come and go for reasons that are usually not clear. Your feelings could be caused by intuition, but also by hormones, drugs, circumstances, etc. As such, feelings are not typically trustworthy for seeking truth.

3. How is "man's reason" highly flawed? It is not a flaw for us to have theories instead of laws. This is a natural part of the process of applying reason to our observations of the world. Our lack of complete knowledge of the world is not because of faulty reasoning, but because of incomplete observation. We have only had so much time to observe the world, and so we continue to learn things as we observe new things or observe old things in new ways. Similarly, disagreements in certain fields of thought does not demonstrate the failure of logic, but simply the limitations of the people who must apply logic to their observations. Most of these disagreements are probably caused by a person's failure to reason properly, a person's failure to observe all factors correctly, or a person's biases.

4. You say that evidence makes faith unnecessary. I will infer from this that you define faith as "belief without compelling evidence," or something very similar. (Correct me if I am wrong.) If this is the case, then why is faith considered such a virtue? It seems that belief becomes completely arbitrary, if founded upon this type of faith. How can you meaningfully choose between the wide range of beliefs when there is no compelling evidence to discern the truth from fiction?  

[CogitoErgoGeek]

Faith Fairy

The universe is simply too complex and orderly to be an accident.

Are you sure? Is there some rule that explains what level of complexity and/or order cannot happen by "accident"? I am not aware of such a thing. I think this is simply your unfounded intuition.

Also, I would like to point out that the choices are not simply between a creator God and an "accident." This is a false dichotomy.  

[CogitoErgoGeek]

It does seem to me like it is impossible to prove God in any meaningful way. However, there is still one way in which you might be able to satisfy your intellect with your desire to believe in God.

There is a challenging problem in the field of epistemology called the regress problem. The problem is explained as follows by Wikipedia:

Wikipedia

Suppose we make a point of asking for a justification for every belief. Any given justification will itself depend on another belief for its justification, so one can also reasonably ask for this to be justified, and so forth. This appears to lead to an infinite regress, with each belief justified by some further belief. The apparent impossibility of completing an infinite chain of reasoning is thought by some to support skepticism. The skeptic will argue that since no one can complete such a chain, ultimately no beliefs are justified and, therefore, no one knows anything.

How do we normally get around this problem? Well, I think that most of us are Foundationalists by nature, since we assume certain "foundational" beliefs without justification, and then we use these to form our beliefs on other things. Examples of such unfounded foundational beliefs might be the idea that your senses represent meaningful information about the world, the idea that a logical proposition cannot be both true and false at the same time, and the idea that the world operates by consistent rules which we can discern by observation.

Now, if we do not have logical arguments to support these foundational beliefs, how do we decide which to accept or deny? We use our intuition. We accept what seems obvious to us. What else can we do? In many cases, this intuition seems to be shared by many people. For instance, the basic principles of logic are apparent to most people, at least most people in the Western world. In other cases, this can lead to more variation, as different people often have different intuitions. How can disagreements be settled on issues like this? It does not seem possible, since neither side of the debate relies on any sort of argument to support their view.

Now, it is possible for one to think of a belief in God as a foundational belief. It is possible for someone's intuition to include the idea that God exists. Perhaps this belief could then be accepted as one of the first principles which is simply accepted and then used as the foundation for all other beliefs. Of course, this is one of the issues which varies widely. Many people have the intuition that there is no God. This variety is slightly distressing, since it shows that intuition does not always lead to acceptance of the truth. Also, it does not seem that this disagreement can be settled, if each simply relies on personal intuition. But, if there is no way to properly argue on either side of the issue, what can anyone do but follow their intuition?

There is at least one issue that is worth addressing. It seems like we could use this same reasoning to decide never to use logic. One could make their decision on every single belief based on nothing but intuition. This seems to be a poor choice, since intuition is often unreliable. So, how can one choose which beliefs are proper targets of intuition? Should we accept the proposition that "our senses represent meaningful information about the world" based on nothing but intuition? Should we accept the proposition that "all white people are bigots" based on nothing but intuition? Should we accept the proposition that "God exists" based on nothing but intuition?

To this issue, I have no answer. It is difficult for me, since it seems that I have no choice but to accept first principles based on intuition, yet I hate choosing beliefs arbitrarily. As a result, my goal is to reduce my list of first principles as much as possible. I will only include the propositions which are simply impossible for me to deny. For me, this does not currently include the proposition that "God exists." Perhaps, for you, it does.  

[Mjolnir The Hammer]

I don't mean to put you down at all when I say this, but you don't understand the concept of faith very well, do you? Blessed are those who do not see, but believe. Do you expect God to expect you to believe? No. That's why He blessed us all with free will to do so, however. Don't doubt what you think isn't there or find reasons NOT to believe. Instead, find reasons TO believe, or feelings; whichever comes to you more strongly. Our God is invisible, but our faith is not blind. We need to interpret what happens to us with reason to believe that there is something out there, that we're not alone, that we ARE here for a reason. I can't live with myself thinking that Christ died for no reason, or that God doesn't exist. This opinion of mine isn't the same as yours in all likelihood, but it doesn't mean you have to try to discern reason *wink wink* to not believe and leave us faithless. I'm not sure what intentions you had on providing your opinion on this.

I hope this helps you in deciding what to believe in the days ahead and don't let anyone take your faith away. Let yourself believe and accept that we are here for a higher purpose. The universe is too big for there not to be the certainty of His existance, even though he's inferring humans have a tendency to do that.

 

[Tashin Hanabi]

maplestoryjunky

This opinion of mine isn't the same as yours in all likelihood, but it doesn't mean you have to try to discern reason *wink wink* to not believe and leave us faithless. I'm not sure what intentions you had on providing your opinion on this.

I don't think there's anything to fear in information, or in learning new things. Everyone should be free to give their input. He was just sharing his understanding of the subject at hand...
And in posting this I didn't have an ulterior motive of trying to convert people to not believing anymore. I just wanted to hear what you guys had to say about it and see if anyone could help me.  

[Eaten By Cheese]

I'm seeing classic signs of an agnostic--perhaps even, someday, atheism. I'm not saying what your beliefs will, or will not turn to, but just that you shouldn't force yourself to believe or not believe in God. What you said earlier--nurturing relationships, working hard, caring about your loved ones, ect.--isn't that what truly matters? Your faith/non-faith may come to you, or you may remain as you are, agnostic, but in the end, will it be your religion/non-religion or things such as loved ones and happiness that matter? You can't change who you are, just as you can't change what you believe. Let your beliefs/non-beliefs come when they may. Until then, life is yours to enjoy.

(Eeh, I just realized how cheesy that sounded. xDDD )

 

[Tashin Hanabi]

Yeah, right now I am agnostic, I guess. I'm just not entirely comfortable with the idea yet...I guess because I am sort of converting again in the opposite direction. confused There's still some fear involved, and I think I'm still emotionally attached to the idea of God. I've always "felt" He was there, and I still do to a degree--but again, I don't know why I feel this way, and whether or not I /feel/ Him or whatever seems to make very little difference in how I act.  

[CogitoErgoGeek]

maplestoryjunky

I don't mean to put you down at all when I say this, but you don't understand the concept of faith very well, do you? Blessed are those who do not see, but believe...

I think Tashin understands what faith is. The issue is whether faith is a virtue. Why should we believe anything without sufficient reason?  

[Mjolnir The Hammer]

Why should we NOT believe? Dude, I didn't mean to come at you that hard before, I just wanna say that first of all. I also hope you see where I'm coming from with this.

Isn't the Bible sufficient reason enough? Why should we be any less trusting and believing in Christ now then when everyone else was over 2000 years ago? Is the fact that people have had faith for that long not sufficient reason or evidence enough? Thats how much of an impact its' made. Isn't that reason enough? If you don't find reason for believing, you don't have to, but honestly, please don't think whatever is 'logical' to believe is always the right thing. That's what makes us human.

I'd also like to point out that no one has provided sufficient evidence of the non-existance of God. (Please don't touche this comment; I've heard it too many times over. Trust me xp )  

[lordstar]

Tashin Hanabi

I've lost most of my convictions. I'm unsure what I really believe now, and I don't really know what to do. I can't really call myself Christian anymore because of all the changes...
I don't know what to think about God....whether he exists, or doesn't, and if he does what he is like...if he doesn't, what that means for us after death. I'm looking at the world now and am sort of let down. I used to be so strongly convicted about Christianity, and now I see...no evidence.
I...hope desperately that there is a God, that he cares, that I can somehow know Him. But I'm not sure if it's wise to try and shape a belief on what I hope to be true when I have no real confidence...
I'm stuck. I want to believe it's true, but I have no reason to. In a way I wish I could fool myself into thinking I believe it, because it seems like that would be easier than just not knowing...

Can anyone relate? Is anyone going through this/has gone through it?

I don't know if it really matters if God is real or not
perhaps its time you looked for your own path  

[CogitoErgoGeek]

maplestoryjunky

Why should we NOT believe? Dude, I didn't mean to come at you that hard before, I just wanna say that first of all. I also hope you see where I'm coming from with this.

This gets us nowhere. I could just as easily say: Why should we believe? Perhaps we should withhold judgment until we have reason to believe or not believe.

Quote:

Isn't the Bible sufficient reason enough? Why should we be any less trusting and believing in Christ now then when everyone else was over 2000 years ago? Is the fact that people have had faith for that long not sufficient reason or evidence enough? Thats how much of an impact its' made. Isn't that reason enough? If you don't find reason for believing, you don't have to, but honestly, please don't think whatever is 'logical' to believe is always the right thing. That's what makes us human.

What about all the people who have held other beliefs for so long? Why aren't you a Buddhist? Isn't it sufficient that so many people have held the Buddhist faith for so long?

Quote:

I'd also like to point out that no one has provided sufficient evidence of the non-existance of God. (Please don't touche this comment; I've heard it too many times over. Trust me xp )

It is impossible to prove the non-existence of anything. Why don't you try to prove the non-existence of fairies, unicorns, and that Jupiter-sized teapot drifting through the Milky Way galaxy?  

[Mjolnir The Hammer]

1. If you don't have reason to believe, don't believe it then. Thats fine with me. Are you asking these things because you are trying to find reason to believe?

2. Yes, it is sufficient. What you're not looking at is how we are influenced and where it comes from. Where all the other religions have originated from were all different parts of the world, which resulted in different influences, which in India happened to start with Siddhartha, who in turn became Buddha by acquiring Enlightenment, a.k.a. Nirvana. In the middle eastern countries, there just happened to be Jesus and the rest of the people included in the Bible. Christianity originated there, moved to Europe, which eventually made its' way to the Americas, and the U.S., which just happens to be the place I was born in. Thats what I was brought up believing. Thats not to say I'm narrow-minded in my views of world religions at all, I respect all peaceful religions as best I can. This is the reason I'm not Buddhist, otherwise, if I lived in Asia or India, I would be.

3. "It is impossible to prove the non-existence of anything." I would ask you to prove the non-existence of something also, but that would be hypocritical. What I'm trying to say is........ have reason to believe whats happened in the past and trust that it's true. About the unicorns, fairies, or Jupiter-sized teapot drifting through the milky way, a) There are no bones that have been recovered so there's no real way of knowing if they did exist, b) Fairies are mythical creatures in the first place, and c) There is no teapot in existence that big. Don't make ridiculous comments. stare

 

[Tashin Hanabi]

maplestoryjunky

stuff

There's no need to get agitated...neither one of us means to make you mad or frustrate you. Thank you for your contribution to this discussion.  

[CogitoErgoGeek]

maplestoryjunky

1. If you don't have reason to believe, don't believe it then. Thats fine with me. Are you asking these things because you are trying to find reason to believe?

I am asking because I am trying to understand and/or clarify your reasoning. The idea was to critique your reasoning in order for us to discuss the matter further and determine whether it holds up to scrutiny. That way, people like Tashin can make informed decisions about whether to believe based on such reasons.

I tend to handle discussions this way out of habit from hanging around M&R. If you are not up for this type of discussion, that is your choice. No hard feelings.

Quote:

2. Yes, it is sufficient. What you're not looking at is how we are influenced and where it comes from. Where all the other religions have originated from were all different parts of the world, which resulted in different influences, which in India happened to start with Siddhartha, who in turn became Buddha by acquiring Enlightenment, a.k.a. Nirvana. In the middle eastern countries, there just happened to be Jesus and the rest of the people included in the Bible. Christianity originated there, moved to Europe, which eventually made its' way to the Americas, and the U.S., which just happens to be the place I was born in. Thats what I was brought up believing. Thats not to say I'm narrow-minded in my views of world religions at all, I respect all peaceful religions as best I can. This is the reason I'm not Buddhist, otherwise, if I lived in Asia or India, I would be.

I understand the relationship between geography and religious belief. However, it seems like such factors ought not to be taken into consideration when attempting to discern metaphysical truth. If God exists, then he exists for us in America and he exists for people in South Africa, Spain, Russia, and Japan. We are trying to discern truth, not just fit in with culture.

Quote:

3. "It is impossible to prove the non-existence of anything." I would ask you to prove the non-existence of something also, but that would be hypocritical. What I'm trying to say is........ have reason to believe whats happened in the past and trust that it's true. About the unicorns, fairies, or Jupiter-sized teapot drifting through the milky way, a) There are no bones that have been recovered so there's no real way of knowing if they did exist, b) Fairies are mythical creatures in the first place, and c) There is no teapot in existence that big. Don't make ridiculous comments. stare

I was simply making a point. You cannot prove that something does not exist. No matter how ridiculous you consider the suggestion, you cannot prove that it is not there. My suggestion of a giant teapot was purposefully ridiculous to illustrate this point. Saying that there is no teapot that big simply asserts the conclusion. How can you prove it? You cannot.

Why is God any different? I have not seen any evidence of God's existence. Many people consider writings about God to be mythical in the same sense as writings about fairies. Other people consider the very notion of deity as ridiculous as a giant teapot. Why should we accept a belief in God without evidence? If we discern truth in this way, shouldn't we also accept the idea that unicorns, fairies, and giant teapots exist as well?  

[Chipi427]

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