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Wait a minute...you feel alienated because someone else vocalized their personal opinions on babies? neutral I'm afraid there's not much we can do about that; after all, if I were to follow in that same vein, I could complain about going-to-be-parents gushing over children.



I don't think that's Mipsy's problem. I know my problem is that every time a discussion relating to childfreedom is brought up, people complain about a faceless pack of anti-reproduction pro-"choicers" who shamelessly make going-to-be-parents feel bad about their decision. Which, in my two years of being a member of this guild, I have never seen. And if I've missed something, please, point it out.

It gets really annoying to see people acting like CF-ers are constantly harping on non-CF-ers every time I come into a thread about childfreedom. All I've seen is CF pro-choicers who are outspoken about their opinions on children and themselves as parents. There's definitely been ragging on shitty parenting, but I would hope that's not an attack on any of you here who want to have kids someday.

The generalizations get pretty old, and so do the mild persecution complexes. I don't doubt that there are CFers who think parents are inferior, but there are PLENTY more people who think CF people are just "going through a phase" or "will change their mind" than there are who think having children is a cardinal sin. And I know a lot of people are interpreting your complaints as "we're worse off than you" simply because of your non-CF status. If you are seriously feeling uncomfortable, talk to a mod and give him/her examples of the behavior that makes you feel so alienated. If the mod(s) feel that you've got a case, they'll probably talk to the guild about it.

As another 2 year guild member, I haven't seen outright attacks (although frustration with overpopulation and poor parenting has been addressed) on people who choose to be parents either. Our guild and the legit pro-choice community is actually quite child-friendly. I say this as someone active in the progressive movement; I have met pro-choicers from all walks of life. A few people in the ADT do no account for the pro-choice movement as they are both few and not terribly diverse as Gaia does not appeal to everyone.

While I don't think anything said in this thread was deserving of anger, I do completely empathize with Mipsy. In general, a CF person will deal with more questioning and badgering by friends, relatives and society than a person who chooses to have children. I understand that it can also be frustrating to have a so-called "choicer" look down on you for having children, but it in all likelihood the question/badgering will not reach the level that a CF person will deal with for a lifetime. While someone childfree might say things about children that make you uncomfortable, that childfree person has been hit with more than just a few blurbs of discomforting opinions as our society caters to children and families.

I don't think associating ourselves with the CF movement is a bad thing so long as there isn't any anti-choice language (meaning completely pro-abortion). If we can associate ourselves with people who choose to be mothers we can associate ourselves with people who choose to be childfree. We are a group of choice.

I was told by a surprising number of people in the LJ abortion debate that being pro-life personally and pro-choice politically undermines the pro-choice movement. Not on Gaia, I've never really felt a down-the-nose approach on Gaia to women who want/have children or are pro-life personally.

http://community.livejournal.com/abortiondebate/373288.html <--- there's the link.

Apparently, saying you wouldn't have an abortion gives pro-lifers the higher moral ground, and you're just pandering to the masses to try and avoid any disagreement from either side. You've separated yourself from the terrible awful women who abort but you're still letting them do it.

It's not about that. It's about the choice, isn't it, and isn't not choosing abortion a choice too?

I on the other hand am perfectly ok with them. I understand how they might come off as holier than thou or separatist, but I think it's an important bit of information to have out there. Lots of people declare themselves to be "Pro-Life" because they personally are opposed to abortion. Maybe they think abortion in general is immoral or maybe they just wouldn't have one themselves, but they think that because they take issue, they are Pro-Life even if they believe abortion should be legal, affordable, and accessible.

It's the problem with people confusing Pro-Choice with Pro-Abortion. People sometimes assume that because you support a woman's right to choose, you have to like or choose abortion. They miss the fact that we are for choice, including the choice to give birth. So we lose some support that we might otherwise have because people don't correctly understand the term.


I'm assuming you didn't mean it this way, but this statement comes off as, "Well, you may have problems, but the CF have way worse problems!" Which honestly doesn't seem particularly helpful. Even if CFers also have problems, even assuming their problems can be objectively stated to be worse, such an assertion only seems to imply that non-CFers shouldn't be trying to address their problems because the problems of CFers are "worse." You know, the whole, "My problems are so much worse than your's so stop whining!" kind of mentality. (Which is a mentality I've never understood, because even if Person A does have problems that are worse than Person B, that doesn't mean Person B doesn't need or deserve help.)

*shrug* Difference of opinion. I agree that people thinking "pro-choice = humping abortion" is a bad thing, but there are better ways to negate that myth than coming off as arrogant or judgmental.



It's funny, because that's what the "lots of CFers look down on non-CFers" comments came off as, in my view.

Again, the point isn't that because CFers face more problems than non-CFers, the latter's problems shouldn't be addressed or voiced. The point is that because CFers face more problems than non-CFers, the latter shouldn't act like they're being oppressed. neutral Because, as I've said, I haven't seen any basis for a lot of the claims I've seen made, and there are other guild oldbies who back me up on that.

¨*:·.♥.·:*¨

Towards the original topic~ The way I see it, not everyone is cut out to be a parent. Just as not everyone is cut out to not be a parent. It's one of those things, and I think of it sort of on the lines of whether you're a "cat person" or a "dog person" (or if you're could go either way contently). Either side can find reasons why their standpoint is "better", but in the end, it's up to the individual to decide what they value, what they want out of life, and what they are mentally, physically, and financially capable of doing.

And there's nothing wrong with either choice.



But, more towards the topic that's -actually- being discussed...I understand several of the non-child free folks have been saying. As a person who wants/has kids, and associating the pro-choice circles, there's a strong backlash...one I've personally even felt in this guild (one of the reasons I'm quite unactive here).

I fully support those who are child-free. A couple of my very closest friends would sooner cut out their own uterus with a butter knife than have children. I respect anyone who knows and isn't afraid of their wants, needs, and capabilities.

And naturally, being a parent, I also support the choice to be a parent, for the reasons I support being child-free.

But, playing the "who has it worse" card is crap. Sorry to be blunt, but it is.

CFers deal with a lot of doubt and hatred, true. I will not deny that in the least. It is unfortunate. However, that does not invalidate the claims of those who are not CF that they have to deal with a lot of flack as well. If we really wanted to be pulling a martyr game, I could get into the fact that not only do parents/future parents receive hell from some CFers, we also receive it on other levels involving when we have children, who we have them with, whether we are SAHMs or not, how we discipline...the list goes on.

So my point is, each side has pros and cons, and you can weigh them both out all day long and still not know who's got the s**t end of the stick.

It'd just be nice if both sides could amicably accept that they're basically just on opposite sides of the same boat.


After all, the whole point of choice is having one, isn't it?

You know, I had a friend who accused me of treating her like that... Only the worst things that ever happened to her were her grandmother dying of OLD AGE, breaking up with her boyfriend, and her dad yelling at her for running up HIS credit card bill. Me? I spent 18 weeks waiting on my dying grandmother(who was VISIBLY wasting away from cancer) IN HER HOME, and get this -- I was forbidden to cry the whole ******** time because "it [would] upset my dad." Not long after that, my uncle blew his ******** brains out, and a little over a year after that, a very close friend of mine was ******** MURDERED in her back yard!

And this girl accused me of being heartless and cold for not caring about daddy bitching her out for running up his credit card buying s**t at anime conventions. She had no sympathy for me just a few months after my friend was killed. I did tell her that she didn't know how good she had it. I told her to be glad her father was even there to give her the credit card in the first place. She then went on to whine about how her parents were divorced and how that ******** her up in the head. Yeah, thanks, tell this to the person whose parents SHOULD be divorced, whose mother physically abused her for some 18 odd years of her life, and whose father is about as emotionally responsive as a houseplant. I've seen this girl with her parents. They hug her. They tell her they love her. They support every decision she makes, saying "I just want you to be happy."

Sometimes, just sometimes, people deserve to get a little s**t dumped on them, just to put things in perspective.


I'm really sorry if this came off as a crazy, off-topic rant. I'm a little emotional today.

Agreed. I got to listen to my mother strange herself to death with a belt when I was three years old.

If that doesn't ******** you up, someone please tell me what does.

I got to be raised by a nanny with a dad who was sadly, emotionally absent from our relationship until I got to be older. And I've had to come to terms with the fact that a big part of why I have a relationship with my dad today (and most of my siblings don't) is a combination of my forgiveness and the fact that I remind him a lot of my mother and that brings him comfort.

Just because I had a relatively shitty childhood doesn't mean that when my friends lost a grandparent and were stricken that I didn't comfort them-- it doesn't mean that when my boyfriend is having problems with his parents that instead of being compassionate and listening I tell him, "WELL AT LEAST YOU HAVE PARENTS!"

It's not ABOUT who has it worse-- someone's feelings are never invalidated simply because they are different or not as "bad" as yours are. Someone else will never truly walk in your shoes and you will never truly walk in someone elses-- I can understand if someone is constantly abusing your nature (I have had a friend who did that) but even then, if you're a good friend, you'll detach hopefully in part for that friend's sake to help them stand on their own.

In no way do I condone encouraging someone to do something wrong-- but I truly believe that everybody who has suffered or is percieving to be suffering deserves some sort of compassion besides "Well, I had it worse".

In regards to this conversation-- this isn't about who has it worse, at all, despite what people are trying to do repeatedly to make it that way. The point is that the Non Childfree people in this guild have given the CF people a LOT of respect and consideration and SUPPORT for their stance. In return it's not that much to ask that we recieve that same thing back-- if that's too much to ask then I don't know what to tell you besides be prepared for my respect for certain people to rapidly drop if my feelings aren't worthy of consideration simply because I made a choice they don't agree with or didn't make (aka the choice to want/have children).

Sorry if this came off bitchy, it wasn't my intention-- I'm just trying to be honest and I don't like to be made out to be someone who wants children and is forcing their view on others. I don't expect anyone to share my view, let me make that perfectly clear-- I just expect that in this guild, we respect ALL choices regarding motherhood.