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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:19 am
ReddXX One thing that works very well, As Daicon pointed out Grey Knight Heros have the option of taking Grimore of True Names, and Sacred Incense, for a low cost to top it off. this is assueming that A you know who your fighting and B the korne player is stupid enough to use deamons aggainst you ReddXX I would bring a Grey Knight Hero(preferablly Grand Master if you have the points), with a medium to large squad of Terminators. If you rush some of them out at those Khorne Berzerkerz, 3+ hit, 2+ wound while striking first, you'll have no problem. yep and you better well damn hope they dont blood rage on ya and get the charge ouy first, just randomly charging across the battle field against korne is the worst thing you can do ReddXX Also, although they do lower armour saves, it's not all that much to worry about. If you get a good shooting round in on them, they'll already be at a disadvantage. Go behind cover, now your striking first, and their 4+ hit 4+ wound will more than make up for your reduced armour save. yeah because a 3+ save means that your at a major dissadvantge when shot with storm bolters rolleyes also any korne player who knows what hes doing should have frag grenades and furrius charge, so now your striking at the same time and its 3+ to wound not 4s. oh and dont forget if they dont blood rage theres plasma pistols in the units as well which will hurt you moer than your stormbolters hurt them. hounestly from the perspective of someone who plays korne rather than someone who reckons my army can take on anyone, the best way to stop us is to use the blood rage aggainst us like i asid before. take 1 or 2 dreds with high shoot weapons, and make the beserkers charge you, they arnt likley to be able to hurt you (unless they have fists in the squad). if you dont want to use dreads then you need transports or low point shock troops that can hold and force the beserkers to charge them, then pick the units off piecemail. the worst thing you can do from a grey knights perspective is let yourself fall into 'mine are the best marines' syndrome your more expensive, you have less attacks and your saves going to be worse in combat. you need to think rather than just charge
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:36 am
ReddXX To be honest Zizzle, I don't see what your having a problem with, Khorne armies are practically worthless against any DaemonHunters player with half-a-brain.(No offense) One thing that works very well, As Daicon pointed out Grey Knight Heros have the option of taking Grimore of True Names, and Sacred Incense, for a low cost to top it off. I would bring a Grey Knight Hero(preferablly Grand Master if you have the points), with a medium to large squad of Terminators. If you rush some of them out at those Khorne Berzerkerz, 3+ hit, 2+ wound while striking first, you'll have no problem. Also, although they do lower armour saves, it's not all that much to worry about. If you get a good shooting round in on them, they'll already be at a disadvantage. Go behind cover, now your striking first, and their 4+ hit 4+ wound will more than make up for your reduced armour save. I don't see how you could be having the problem your having really... If you're facing a Khorne Player who doesn't have furious charge and Frags, then YOU'RE the one facing an army leader with half a brain. Furious Charge is a MUST for Khorne, as it allows them to strike at S5 and I5, higher for their leaders. And since most special Demonhunter Equipment only effects either: A) Models that are classified as demons or Possessed, or B) Have 51 or more points in Daemonic Gifts, you won't be recieving many of your special skills against Khorne Players as long as they're smart enough to take nothing within those categories. That's right, you can have Good chaos leaders that AREN'T considered demonic, that puts a little bump in some of your plans. Plus, with the Collars of Khorne, as long as they stick them to their Veterans and HQ, which should be easy considering their 5pt cost, they can Nullify your Psychic powers and Force Weapons on 2+, another bump against your plans. And about the Storm Bolters, like to see them even harm a Front Armor 13 Khorne Dreadnought that at should be along your lines by turn three in combat, at the latest. Best bet against Khorne is actually to, like Tanith suggested, use blood frenzy to your advantage, and while they're forced to perform useless charges against high Armor Vehicles, you can just blow them away. Because, even though Storm Bolters won't do much - 18 Storm Bolters will only kill 4 Khorne Berzerkers on average - The Decoy can add another turn or two of firing against the Khorne Army, which is always useful, especially when the Khorne Unit Champion has Collar Of Khorne, Dual Lightning Claws, Mutation, and Rage of Khorne, plus the furious charge for the Whole Squad. That brings up one other good point, actually. Remember, Khorne, while still not as Expensive as you, will still not outnumber more then a 3:1 ratio usually, and that's a large army vs. Grey Knights. Just remember that for every one of them you kill, that is 24pts. of Troop that won't reach you, which is 4 Less attacks against your Precious troops. Thus, MASS Storm bolter Fire, or some Heavier Weapon fire, will slowly tear them apart. Just remember that you have to, on average, have a 3:1 kill ratio in order to beat them. Anything short, and they'll slowly tear you apart.
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:52 am
Thx Drachyench and menoftanith for actual good advice. As for ReddXX you are assuming the person I am playing against has any Daemons at all, which he never does when he faces me. I don't have a lot of armor as of yet, just starting out with the Daemon Hunters force, but I'll have to keap that in mind. Frenzy is a blessing and a curse for a World Eaters player. And yes I have tried shooting the crap out of them before they get their but with Str5 In5 and 4 attacks on the charge they tend to decimate me when they get their. Looks like it's time for me to buy some transports =P.
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:32 pm
Zizzle Thx Drachyench and menoftanith for actual good advice. As for ReddXX you are assuming the person I am playing against has any Daemons at all, which he never does when he faces me. I don't have a lot of armor as of yet, just starting out with the Daemon Hunters force, but I'll have to keap that in mind. Frenzy is a blessing and a curse for a World Eaters player. And yes I have tried shooting the crap out of them before they get their but with Str5 In5 and 4 attacks on the charge they tend to decimate me when they get their. Looks like it's time for me to buy some transports =P. Just remember, the only way for Khorne to attack your vehicals in HtH is by charging. You'll need either Land Raiders(Big Point investment, so not best choice), Chimeras(Face them front toward the enemy, as their Front armor is 12), or Rhinos(Armor 11 on front and side, though can be glanced by Furious Charge Berzerkers).
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:21 pm
menoftanith ReddXX One thing that works very well, As Daicon pointed out Grey Knight Heros have the option of taking Grimore of True Names, and Sacred Incense, for a low cost to top it off. this is assueming that A you know who your fighting and B the korne player is stupid enough to use deamons aggainst you ReddXX I would bring a Grey Knight Hero(preferablly Grand Master if you have the points), with a medium to large squad of Terminators. If you rush some of them out at those Khorne Berzerkerz, 3+ hit, 2+ wound while striking first, you'll have no problem. yep and you better well damn hope they dont blood rage on ya and get the charge ouy first, just randomly charging across the battle field against korne is the worst thing you can do ReddXX Also, although they do lower armour saves, it's not all that much to worry about. If you get a good shooting round in on them, they'll already be at a disadvantage. Go behind cover, now your striking first, and their 4+ hit 4+ wound will more than make up for your reduced armour save. yeah because a 3+ save means that your at a major dissadvantge when shot with storm bolters rolleyes also any korne player who knows what hes doing should have frag grenades and furrius charge, so now your striking at the same time and its 3+ to wound not 4s. oh and dont forget if they dont blood rage theres plasma pistols in the units as well which will hurt you moer than your stormbolters hurt them. hounestly from the perspective of someone who plays korne rather than someone who reckons my army can take on anyone, the best way to stop us is to use the blood rage aggainst us like i asid before. take 1 or 2 dreds with high shoot weapons, and make the beserkers charge you, they arnt likley to be able to hurt you (unless they have fists in the squad). if you dont want to use dreads then you need transports or low point shock troops that can hold and force the beserkers to charge them, then pick the units off piecemail. the worst thing you can do from a grey knights perspective is let yourself fall into 'mine are the best marines' syndrome your more expensive, you have less attacks and your saves going to be worse in combat. you need to think rather than just charge I have fought Khorne before, and before you get to high on yourself I would suggest talking a little less about "what ifs" and realizing a little bit more how descent to good tactician could easily avoid your "furious charge." First off, Grimore of True names is for Daemons I will admit, if the DaemonHunter player chooses not to bring it thats fine. However Sacred Incense works on all Chaos models, lowering all of your Khorne Berzerkerz Initiative by 1. Also, I did not say I would "just charge" considering that the Stormbolters are assualt, a squad of Grey Knights could easily back out of assault range, or out of "blood rage" range whilst still shooting you up with Storm Bolters. Your 3+ although effective, isn't going to keep you from losing any models and all your Khorne Berzerkerz will be dire in this situation. A full squad of Grey Knights is getting 20 shots, and if you choose to bring a psycannon (although you will lose some effectiveness in close-combat) you'll have a pretty great chance (statistically) of knocking out another Berzerker with that alone. Any Grey Knight player who is not stupid can easily out maneuver, shoot up, and then beat a squad of Khorne Berzerkerz. I'm telling you, you don't know what your saying...I don't know if you've never played Grey Knights, or you've been playing rather dumb players, but you do not know what you are saying.
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:29 pm
Zizzle Thx Drachyench and menoftanith for actual good advice. As for ReddXX you are assuming the person I am playing against has any Daemons at all, which he never does when he faces me. I don't have a lot of armor as of yet, just starting out with the Daemon Hunters force, but I'll have to keap that in mind. Frenzy is a blessing and a curse for a World Eaters player. And yes I have tried shooting the crap out of them before they get their but with Str5 In5 and 4 attacks on the charge they tend to decimate me when they get their. Looks like it's time for me to buy some transports =P. Eh, you are a DaemonHunters player! Don't be an idiot, 2 of the items I suggested work against Daemons, and one of them still would work on Khorne Berzerkerz. Think about it, 20 Stormbolter shots (not 1 cool would kill 4 or 5 guys a turn. Do you really think you still going to win a combat taking that many casulties a turn, especially if your barely winning the combat in the first place. Also, I'm not going to have 1 squad of Grey Knights at my line. Several may even be in play... All of this is very loose, anything I say here can only be proven. Many of your suggestions are very risky, and can easily be turned around if you have a clue as to how to play the game.
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:31 am
ReddXX Zizzle Thx Drachyench and menoftanith for actual good advice. As for ReddXX you are assuming the person I am playing against has any Daemons at all, which he never does when he faces me. I don't have a lot of armor as of yet, just starting out with the Daemon Hunters force, but I'll have to keap that in mind. Frenzy is a blessing and a curse for a World Eaters player. And yes I have tried shooting the crap out of them before they get their but with Str5 In5 and 4 attacks on the charge they tend to decimate me when they get their. Looks like it's time for me to buy some transports =P. Eh, you are a DaemonHunters player! Don't be an idiot, 2 of the items I suggested work against Daemons, and one of them still would work on Khorne Berzerkerz. Think about it, 20 Stormbolter shots (not 1 cool would kill 4 or 5 guys a turn. Do you really think you still going to win a combat taking that many casulties a turn, especially if your barely winning the combat in the first place. Also, I'm not going to have 1 squad of Grey Knights at my line. Several may even be in play... All of this is very loose, anything I say here can only be proven. Many of your suggestions are very risky, and can easily be turned around if you have a clue as to how to play the game. redd im talking from the perspective of someone who was succesful with a kohrne army, yeah you have a gun line of a few units with storm bolters but i out number you, when i do hit combat im hitting you first hitting on 4s wounding on 3s and you only have a 4+save, because of the two inch rule now your looking at around 20-30 attacks thats noramly results in at lest 3-4 dead and oh look you now dont have people left to attack back with, and thats with out unit champions with axes of korne (a favorite of mine) thats 5A any 6s to hit is another attack till you stop rolling 6s and its a power weapon wounding on 3s. so yes i do think i will comabt cause i know that i can, squads of 3 beserkers can munch through tact units by themselves, grey knights are no differnt a problem for them
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:31 am
Meoftanith, I have to seriously wonder if you're listening at all. Did you pay attention to the Sacred Incense? -1 initiative to ALL Chaos models. Charge that unit, and even with Furious Charge you're striking simultaneously, so even if you get your 30 or so attacks, the Grey Knights still get their's too.
And if they happened to by the Grandmasters terminator retinue... well, you're looking at 32 or so attacks back as well, which hit on 3's, wound on 2's, and completely ignore armor saves. 3nodding Have a nice day with that, since before you hit the lines, the smart Grey Knights player would have wittled you down at least slightly with Assault Cannon shots from Dreadnoughts, Storm Bolter fire from his troops, and a well placed Orbital Strike.... Well, maybe no whittling down with the Orbital strike, because if it actually hit a unit, that unit stands very little chance of surviving, but even if it doesn't, there's a nice area of terrain, as well as a 12" circle surrounding it that is very dangerous territory for you to venture into.
A smart player can use that to his advantage to create all sorts of lovely traps for Blood Frenzied Khorne Berzerkers that have to go straight for their enemies. domokun heart 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:58 am
Daicon Meoftanith, I have to seriously wonder if you're listening at all. Did you pay attention to the Sacred Incense? -1 initiative to ALL Chaos models. Charge that unit, and even with Furious Charge you're striking simultaneously, so even if you get your 30 or so attacks, the Grey Knights still get their's too. as i dont play grey knights i wasnt aware of it what it did, thanks for telling me but it still doesnt change the fact they are going to kill more than the grey knights do because of double the attacks and the minus to your armour save Daicon And if they happened to by the Grandmasters terminator retinue... well, you're looking at 32 or so attacks back as well, which hit on 3's, wound on 2's, and completely ignore armor saves. again thats assueming your going aggainst a korne player who doesnt know what there doing, as there are ways of dealing with that without just blindly charging (unless its due to blood rage) Daicon Have a nice day with that, since before you hit the lines, the smart Grey Knights player would have wittled you down at least slightly with Assault Cannon shots from Dreadnoughts, Storm Bolter fire from his troops, and a well placed Orbital Strike.... Well, maybe no whittling down with the Orbital strike, because if it actually hit a unit, that unit stands very little chance of surviving, but even if it doesn't, there's a nice area of terrain, as well as a 12" circle surrounding it that is very dangerous territory for you to venture into. all i was saying before is dont really on the fact that you have storm bolters to whittle them down, and dont fool your sefl into thinking that theres only a couple of them left they wont hurt me cause im a grey knight Daicon A smart player can use that to his advantage to create all sorts of lovely traps for Blood Frenzied Khorne Berzerkers that have to go straight for their enemies. thats what ive been saying right from the start. did you not read my posts, they wernt 'korne are the best' or anything like that (which is what others have done from the deamon hunters view), i was saying exactly what you just said there, the best way you are going to beat them is to use blood rage aggainst them
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:22 pm
ReddXX Zizzle Thx Drachyench and menoftanith for actual good advice. As for ReddXX you are assuming the person I am playing against has any Daemons at all, which he never does when he faces me. I don't have a lot of armor as of yet, just starting out with the Daemon Hunters force, but I'll have to keap that in mind. Frenzy is a blessing and a curse for a World Eaters player. And yes I have tried shooting the crap out of them before they get their but with Str5 In5 and 4 attacks on the charge they tend to decimate me when they get their. Looks like it's time for me to buy some transports =P. Think about it, 20 Stormbolter shots (not 1 cool would kill 4 or 5 guys a turn. The heck you smoking? That's about 14 hits, rounding up, which is about 7 wounds, which, again purposly assuming it turns completely in your favor, is 3 Wounds, as Power armor blocks 2/3 of your hits. 18 Storm Bolters, not Shots, Storm Bolters themselves, get 36 shots, of which 24 will hit on average, of which 12 will wound. That will, on average, be 4 wounds, as 1/3 of 12 is 4.
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm
my rule of thumb for shooting always come out to about 60% Hit 40% Wound 20% Unpassed save. Unless im shooting my Exorcist then everything every shot hits wounds and kills
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Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:40 pm
Drachyench I was basing my answer off of yours. I got 4 from you, I'm sorry...for the misunderstanding if you could call it that. Anyway.
Anyway, Anith...I had said several times about the affect of Sacred Incense (considering none of you understood that because 2 items of wargear can work on Daemons, I wasn't in the least bit creating a "Daemon Hunting" army.) and if you were fighting a good player at all, or payed any attention to your opposition, you should have known that.
Think about it, take information from an expierienced DaemonHunters player (with another one agreeing all the way.) or take information from a Khorne player who can beat the retarded DaemonHunter player he is fighting? You're whole Blood Rage into tank thing, sure that is something to take advantage of, but I'm trying to give someone an entire over-view on how to beat Khorne, not just one simple strategy. Also, your forgetting about combining units, and access units. If your in Close-Combat with a Grey Knight squad, and those Terminators are near by, you are now definitely screwed. If that player is smart, this excess amount of Stormbolter fire, plus the ability to move and shoot at 24" (the most you can charge, even when getting a six on blood rage, is 18") By the time any DaemonHunters player who knew what he was doing let you get to him, your squad would have so many little chunks eatin' out of it, it would be useless. If you haven't seen it already, even with furious charge, as long as were striking simultaneously the fights are going to be really close. Plus, that is with a full squad, once you are reduced your done for, especially because every guy I pick off is three less attacks for you.
Also, you really need to get off that whole thing of assuming that because I play Grey Knights, I think they are overlordly and will rush them into situations. You are not realising that a Grey Knight squad has your Khorne Berserkerz beat in shooting, and close if not beat in Close-Combat. Trying to beat such a unit will be hard, and I seriously doubt that your Khorne Berserkerz would push Grey Knights around. Or at least with me running them you wouldn't.
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:23 am
im not baseing my advice on some bad deamon hunters palyer, im baseing it from tactics people have used to beat korne, and if you actually look at a GW anti korne tactica they will tell you them same thing.
your saying that korne units when whittled down are inaffective, your forgetting that i only need half the ammount of models in combat as you do to get the attacks and statisticly they cause more damage.
what your saying about combining units is what im saying as well, however we both said it differntly, you asid he should charge a korne unit without origanaly mentioning about supporting that unit (thats what led me to think you were a grey knights fan boy) if you read what i said properly i said use blood rage to bog him down so that you can concentrate the combats where you want and suggested that tanks are ONE way of doing that.
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:53 pm
menoftanith im not baseing my advice on some bad deamon hunters palyer, im baseing it from tactics people have used to beat korne, and if you actually look at a GW anti korne tactica they will tell you them same thing. your saying that korne units when whittled down are inaffective, your forgetting that i only need half the ammount of models in combat as you do to get the attacks and statisticly they cause more damage. what your saying about combining units is what im saying as well, however we both said it differntly, you asid he should charge a korne unit without origanaly mentioning about supporting that unit (thats what led me to think you were a grey knights fan boy) if you read what i said properly i said use blood rage to bog him down so that you can concentrate the combats where you want and suggested that tanks are ONE way of doing that. Well, since your getting your advice from a site, I can see where you would be confident, but still I'm telling you I have beaten Khorne armies before. I think our main misunderstanding is that your facts are not quite straight at how charging may go. A Basic Khorne Berserker gets 1 Profile attack, 1 attack for being berserkerz, and 1 for duel-wielding. It is true that you would get double my basic profile attacks if you charged, however if you do not use blood rage, we have the same chance at charging eachother, if you do use blood rage, there is a good chance that on a bad roll you will come up short, and I can then charge you. Also, terrain plays a great affect in seeing who is going to get into combat first. You cannot assume your Berserkerz will get into combat first. If you do not charge, your basically screwed for now you've got 3 attacks at a 4+ hit 4+ wound, and although I get a 4+ armour save, I'm striking first at a 3+ hit, 2+ wound. Whittling down your numbers is just something that I can definitely use to beat you even easier. It's almost pointless debating Khorne and Grey Knights because depending on luck, and tacticians, close-combat results will result different everytime considering they are both so close in Close-Combat skill. Also, are you even sure that anything in a Khorne squad but the Aspiring Champion can take furious charge?
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Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:41 pm
He's right about the Furious Charge, the units get to take them if they pay the points for it, my friend normally does when he plays higher points games against me since I bought and completed my Necron army. Hehe, poor guy, I would shoot his 'Zerker squads up so badly that only three of the starting members of each squad (If the squad even survived.) would reach my lines, and he needed every precious attack to bring down my Robots.
Still, my only complaint with Menoftanith is how much you underestimate mass bolter fire and the effects it can have on combat before it even begins. Any smart Grey Knight player would move his army up for the first turn, to start the shooting sooner, and fall back as Khorne advanced. With full squads of Stormbolters firing at seperate Khorne units for two or three turns consecutively, you could easily expect to see the Berzerkers losing anywhere between 1-5 models of shooting per unit per turn, depending on just how lucky the players roll. And considering your basic Berzerker is only 1 point less than a Grey Knight, that does quite a bit of damage and earns quite a few victory points, and combat hasn't even started yet.
The mass fire would be better against the army of a God with a smaller favored number than 8, but it is still very effective.
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