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| I dont know but it is a good question |
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 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:03 am
Fushigi na Butterfly Lethkhar But why? Who exactly benefits from them being condemned? I'm afraid I don't follow. Why bother doing something if it benefits no one? What's the point? Quote: Lethkhar In other words; religions that worship the Judeo-Christian God.
But yes, in other words ...Yes, Allah does count as the Judeo-Christian God because it's the exact same deity as derrived from the Torah. In fact, I probably didn't even need to say "Christian". That's just customary. I probably just should've said "Abrahamic"... Quote: Lethkhar It's not a matter of Christianity fitting in with Eastern philosophies; It's a matter of Eastern philosophies fitting in with Christianity. It is believed that you cannot be a follower of Christ and Buddha at the same time. In fact, there's a whole thread in the "Prayers" forum dedicated to praying for someone's soul because they've become interested in Buddhism. Unless, of course, you don't consider Christianity to be any more valid than Buddhism. In which case, favoring one over the other is absolutely reasonless. Why would you want to pass up on the chance to be enlightened just because you're running the risk of going to Hell? Wouldn't that make it an endless cycle where you can never reach enlightenment because you're too afraid to cast aside the obstacles keeping you from it? Quote: Lethkhar Except for...you know...the whole "Various levels of Tao" thing...With spirits and ancestors and such... Well, Taoism is greatly based on the concept that everything is one. This one is called "Tao", if I remember correctly. Tao is this sort of...force behind the universe. It's not really so much a deity as a concept. Tao is then broken up into an infinite amount of lesser spirits, ancestors, deities, etc., which are all part of Tao and make up the force behind the universe. Which is sort of what I was getting at with "various levels of Tao". sweatdrop Of course, a lot of Western scholars fail to realize this fundamental part of Taoism, and they see it as a pagan, polytheistic religion. Which it technically is, but also isn't in a way...Sort of like Hinduism, really. Quote: Lethkhar But there are literally thousands of religions that say "follow this religion or you'll die/incinerate/be condemned/forced to stand in a pond in the dark for eternity. How are we supposed to know which one to follow? Off the top of my head: Islam, Judaism, Seboghatullah, Jainism (To some extent) , Buddhism (Same), Zoroastrianism, and many of the various African mythologies that I'm not going to list. Quote: Lethkhar "Now, I'm not having a go at him, because he is brilliant. But in my humble opinion, I think the snake was a mistake." -Ricky Gervais Why is Satan allowed to mislead us? So why does Satan exist? It seems to me like all he's ever done is cause trouble. Why would God create a being whose sole intent is to make people suffer? And don't tell me that Satan wasn't originally like that, because that's irrelevant.
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:03 am
Lethkhar I'm afraid I don't follow. Why bother doing something if it benefits no one? What's the point?
Okay, this argument sounded alot more credible two days ago when I was sleep-deprived. domokun Lethkhar Unless, of course, you don't consider Christianity to be any more valid than Buddhism. In which case, favoring one over the other is absolutely reasonless. Why would you want to pass up on the chance to be enlightened just because you're running the risk of going to Hell? Wouldn't that make it an endless cycle where you can never reach enlightenment because you're too afraid to cast aside the obstacles keeping you from it? Lethkhar Well, Taoism is greatly based on the concept that everything is one. This one is called "Tao", if I remember correctly. Tao is this sort of...force behind the universe. It's not really so much a deity as a concept. Tao is then broken up into an infinite amount of lesser spirits, ancestors, deities, etc., which are all part of Tao and make up the force behind the universe. Which is sort of what I was getting at with "various levels of Tao". sweatdrop Of course, a lot of Western scholars fail to realize this fundamental part of Taoism, and they see it as a pagan, polytheistic religion. Which it technically is, but also isn't in a way...Sort of like Hinduism, really. Lethkhar Off the top of my head: Islam, Judaism, Seboghatullah, Jainism (To some extent) , Buddhism (Same), Zoroastrianism, and many of the various African mythologies that I'm not going to list. Lethkhar So why does Satan exist? It seems to me like all he's ever done is cause trouble. Why would God create a being whose sole intent is to make people suffer? And don't tell me that Satan wasn't originally like that, because that's irrelevant.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:01 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Lethkhar I'm afraid I don't follow. Why bother doing something if it benefits no one? What's the point?
Okay, this argument sounded alot more credible two days ago when I was sleep-deprived. domokun So God condemns people, and there's no point to it? It benefits no one? That just doesn't make any sense. Why would a benevolent being do that? Quote: Lethkhar Unless, of course, you don't consider Christianity to be any more valid than Buddhism. In which case, favoring one over the other is absolutely reasonless. Why would you want to pass up on the chance to be enlightened just because you're running the risk of going to Hell? Wouldn't that make it an endless cycle where you can never reach enlightenment because you're too afraid to cast aside the obstacles keeping you from it? Basically what you just said was,"You can be both a Buddhist and a Christian, but in the long run you'll have to choose which path you want to follow." See how they're mutually exclusive? Quote: Lethkhar Off the top of my head: Islam, Judaism, Seboghatullah, Jainism (To some extent) , Buddhism (Same), Zoroastrianism, and many of the various African mythologies that I'm not going to list. I have family members that are Zoroastrian. And Jainism is actually very widespread in certain parts of India. Seboghatullah's closest cousin is Islam, I think. But it's definitely not a sect of Islam. Quote: Lethkhar So why does Satan exist? It seems to me like all he's ever done is cause trouble. Why would God create a being whose sole intent is to make people suffer? And don't tell me that Satan wasn't originally like that, because that's irrelevant. Eh...My real question was the one you asked yourself and couldn't answer...
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Lethkhar So God condemns people, and there's no point to it? It benefits no one? That just doesn't make any sense. Why would a benevolent being do that? Lethkhar Basically what you just said was,"You can be both a Buddhist and a Christian, but in the long run you'll have to choose which path you want to follow." See how they're mutually exclusive? Lethkhar I have family members that are Zoroastrian. And Jainism is actually very widespread in certain parts of India. Seboghatullah's closest cousin is Islam, I think. But it's definitely not a sect of Islam. Lethkhar Eh...My real question was the one you asked yourself and couldn't answer...
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:18 am
Fushigi na Butterfly Lethkhar So God condemns people, and there's no point to it? It benefits no one? That just doesn't make any sense. Why would a benevolent being do that? What did Satan really do that was so bad? He disagreed with God? So what? Why does it anger God so much that people disagree with Him? Satan was the first free-thinker; you have to give him credit for that at least. Anyway it doesn't really matter what Hell was originally intended for. The point is that now people are sent there for absolutely no reason, and I can't understand why. You say it's to deter people from doing wrong, but why not encourage people to do right instead? Why not have great rewards be offered to those who fit whatever standards God has and then just make everyone else live a mediocre lifestlye after death? Why the condemnation? Quote: Lethkhar I have family members that are Zoroastrian. And Jainism is actually very widespread in certain parts of India. Seboghatullah's closest cousin is Islam, I think. But it's definitely not a sect of Islam. It is pretty cool, considering how few Zoroastrians there are in the world. I don't know them that well, though.
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:25 pm
Lethkhar What did Satan really do that was so bad? He disagreed with God? So what? Why does it anger God so much that people disagree with Him? Satan was the first free-thinker; you have to give him credit for that at least. Anyway it doesn't really matter what Hell was originally intended for. The point is that now people are sent there for absolutely no reason, and I can't understand why. You say it's to deter people from doing wrong, but why not encourage people to do right instead? Why not have great rewards be offered to those who fit whatever standards God has and then just make everyone else live a mediocre lifestlye after death? Why the condemnation? Because Satan wanted God's job. He was the most beautiful of the angels, with the most brilliant voice, and he thought that because he was the best, he was God's equal... or perhaps better. The war in heaven was an attempt to BECOME God. So, like any usurper on earth, he was banished. Hell was created for him and all the angels who supported him. Then, to make God even MORE angry, he decided to lure away God's favorite creation -- us. As for the comdemnation... what Fushigi said essentially stands: whoever you choose to follow is where you end up... and there's only two choices. There already are great rewards awaiting all those who choose God. And yet nobody's really paying attention. God is loving, but God is also a judge. After a lifetime of sinning and hurting God without apology, reparations must be made. Don't know how else to explain it.
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:23 pm
Quote: Because Satan wanted God's job. He was the most beautiful of the angels, with the most brilliant voice, and he thought that because he was the best, he was God's equal... or perhaps better. The war in heaven was an attempt to BECOME God. So, like any usurper on earth, he was banished. Hell was created for him and all the angels who supported him. Then, to make God even MORE angry, he decided to lure away God's favorite creation -- us. He didn't just want God's job; he thought he could take it by force. He brought the first desecration to heaven, the first death. Quote: But Hell wasn't originally intended for us; it was for Satan. I walked away from the computer, but I was thinking about this. Do you have biblical proof for this claim? I believe it myself, but my proof doesn't come from the bible, and I've entered into some nasty debates with people over it (which is why I try to avoid the topic of angels at all costs).
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:44 am
ryuu_chan Lethkhar What did Satan really do that was so bad? He disagreed with God? So what? Why does it anger God so much that people disagree with Him? Satan was the first free-thinker; you have to give him credit for that at least. Anyway it doesn't really matter what Hell was originally intended for. The point is that now people are sent there for absolutely no reason, and I can't understand why. You say it's to deter people from doing wrong, but why not encourage people to do right instead? Why not have great rewards be offered to those who fit whatever standards God has and then just make everyone else live a mediocre lifestlye after death? Why the condemnation? Because Satan wanted God's job. He was the most beautiful of the angels, with the most brilliant voice, and he thought that because he was the best, he was God's equal... or perhaps better. The war in heaven was an attempt to BECOME God. So, like any usurper on earth, he was banished. Hell was created for him and all the angels who supported him. Then, to make God even MORE angry, he decided to lure away God's favorite creation -- us. As for the comdemnation... what Fushigi said essentially stands: whoever you choose to follow is where you end up... and there's only two choices. There already are great rewards awaiting all those who choose God. And yet nobody's really paying attention. God is loving, but God is also a judge. After a lifetime of sinning and hurting God without apology, reparations must be made. Don't know how else to explain it. But why Hell? It really doesn't make any sense. The purpose of punishment is to teach someone not to do something. If your punishment is eternal, then there's really no purpose to it since they never get the chance to apply whatever they've learned.
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:10 am
To respond to your paragraphs in reverse order...
It wasn't really punishment, but cleansing God's land and his people (at that time: angels) from the evil presence. It was exile. Exile isn't a punishment with the purpouse to teach a lesson. It's punishment that is meant to make a point to the rest of the people, and of the exiled.
To understand the full scope of it (and from that, why hell), you have to know what hell actually is. It's permanent and brutal seperation from God. For someone who lived their whole known existance (for a time we can't possibly comprehend) in the literal Presence of God, it was more than just punishment, more than just "falling." It was being severed from your home, your kin, your family and your creator. We can hardly feel God in this place. To go from a state of feeling the literal Light and Life of heaven and of his creator to a place worse than earth is truly hell. What better punishment is there for someone who not only turned their back on the Creator of worlds, but led a rebellion of his first creations to overthrow the throne of heaven?
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:51 am
Lyneun To respond to your paragraphs in reverse order... It wasn't really punishment, but cleansing God's land and his people (at that time: angels) from the evil presence. It was exile. Exile isn't a punishment with the purpouse to teach a lesson. It's punishment that is meant to make a point to the rest of the people, and of the exiled. And how is this point achieved when you exile the vast majority of your people? Besides, all the people that are (supposedly) going to Heaven already understand that God is all-powerful. Why is Hell necessary to prove this to them? Quote: To understand the full scope of it (and from that, why hell), you have to know what hell actually is. It's permanent and brutal seperation from God. For someone who lived their whole known existance (for a time we can't possibly comprehend) in the literal Presence of God, it was more than just punishment, more than just "falling." It was being severed from your home, your kin, your family and your creator. We can hardly feel God in this place. To go from a state of feeling the literal Light and Life of heaven and of his creator to a place worse than earth is truly hell. What better punishment is there for someone who not only turned their back on the Creator of worlds, but led a rebellion of his first creations to overthrow the throne of heaven? Alright then. So what's so bad about Hell? As you just said, "We can hardly feel God in this place". So if there is no God in Hell, why should I care? I hardly feel Him anyway. It's hardly something for me to fret about, right? He's so feint in my life that I don't even think He exists. Him not being there at all really wouldn't affect me too much.
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:32 am
One-third isn't a vast majority... I have no biblical claim for this, but the Angels who were first created aren't the only ones. Angels are being created all the time, for various tasks or reasons. It was a loss, but it's not as huge of a loss as you're implying. If I was God, I would not stand iniquity such as Satan-el's to be in my kingdom. I would have done the exact same thing. Well, I probably would have killed them all. Hell isn't there to prove anything to anyone. People will choose, and there are concequences for both choices. He gave us free will for a reason, but he also gave us concequences for what decisions we make. Quote: So if there is no God in Hell, why should I care? I hardly feel Him anyway. It's hardly something for me to fret about, right? He's so feint in my life that I don't even think He exists. Him not being there at all really wouldn't affect me too much. (Faint in this world is still a lot. It is faint, little, compared to everything God is) I don't know. That isn't for me to say. It would be hell for me, and for a lot of people who feel God in this world. Many people of every faith have touched God in a way. I honestly can't see how a person is incapable of feeling the divine in this world, because I've always felt it, but I'm trying to step in your shoes, though it's difficult. But this is something you have to sort out with God. Even if you don't believe in him, open up to the possibility that he might exist. You say you can "hardly" feel him, so you feel a bit right? Just be open to the possibility that he can and probably will speak to you. Don't be impatient, or angry, just be open. If you close yourself off to the possibility of truth, you'll never see it. *shrugs* (I hope you don't think I'm trying to peg you, or convert you. I don't do that, I'm just honest with folks.)
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:42 pm
Lethkhar Lyneun To respond to your paragraphs in reverse order... It wasn't really punishment, but cleansing God's land and his people (at that time: angels) from the evil presence. It was exile. Exile isn't a punishment with the purpouse to teach a lesson. It's punishment that is meant to make a point to the rest of the people, and of the exiled. 1)And how is this point achieved when you exile the vast majority of your people? 2)Besides, all the people that are (supposedly) going to Heaven already understand that God is all-powerful. Why is Hell necessary to prove this to them? 1)It's not really to make a point. It's just punishment. Everyone in hell has heard of God. They were all warned. They disregarded it. They have no excuse. 2)It's not neccessary. Look at my above argument. Quote: Quote: To understand the full scope of it (and from that, why hell), you have to know what hell actually is. It's permanent and brutal seperation from God. For someone who lived their whole known existance (for a time we can't possibly comprehend) in the literal Presence of God, it was more than just punishment, more than just "falling." It was being severed from your home, your kin, your family and your creator. We can hardly feel God in this place. To go from a state of feeling the literal Light and Life of heaven and of his creator to a place worse than earth is truly hell. What better punishment is there for someone who not only turned their back on the Creator of worlds, but led a rebellion of his first creations to overthrow the throne of heaven? Alright then. So what's so bad about Hell? As you just said, "We can hardly feel God in this place". So if there is no God in Hell, why should I care? I hardly feel Him anyway. It's hardly something for me to fret about, right? He's so feint in my life that I don't even think He exists. Him not being there at all really wouldn't affect me too much. It actually is something to fear. It's being tortured by demons for all eternity. If you believe in demons, then you should be afraid.
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:04 pm
Lyneun One-third isn't a vast majority... I have no biblical claim for this, but the Angels who were first created aren't the only ones. Angels are being created all the time, for various tasks or reasons. It was a loss, but it's not as huge of a loss as you're implying. If I was God, I would not stand iniquity such as Satan-el's to be in my kingdom. I would have done the exact same thing. Let me put it this way: Somewhere around 100 billion people have died on this earth. Of those people, no more than 10 billion were Christian. 90% is a vast majority of people going to Hell. Quote: Well, I probably would have killed them all. That seems rather harsh to me... Quote: Hell isn't there to prove anything to anyone. So when you wrote: Lyneun It wasn't really punishment, but cleansing God's land and his people (at that time: angels) from the evil presence. It was exile. Exile isn't a punishment with the purpouse to teach a lesson. It's punishment that is meant to make a point to the rest of the people, and of the exiled. What exactly were you talking about? Quote: People will choose, and there are concequences for both choices. He gave us free will for a reason, but he also gave us concequences for what decisions we make. No matter how uninformed those decisions might be? Quote: Quote: So if there is no God in Hell, why should I care? I hardly feel Him anyway. It's hardly something for me to fret about, right? He's so feint in my life that I don't even think He exists. Him not being there at all really wouldn't affect me too much. (Faint in this world is still a lot. It is faint, little, compared to everything God is) I don't know. That isn't for me to say. It would be hell for me, and for a lot of people who feel God in this world. Many people of every faith have touched God in a way. I honestly can't see how a person is incapable of feeling the divine in this world, because I've always felt it, but I'm trying to step in your shoes, though it's difficult. So really, Hell is just punishment for people who are going to Heaven anyway? I can live with that. Quote: But this is something you have to sort out with God. Even if you don't believe in him, open up to the possibility that he might exist. You say you can "hardly" feel him, so you feel a bit right? No, I was just using your wording. You said that I could "hardly" feel Him. Quote: Just be open to the possibility that he can and probably will speak to you. Don't be impatient, or angry, just be open. If you close yourself off to the possibility of truth, you'll never see it. *shrugs* (I hope you don't think I'm trying to peg you, or convert you. I don't do that, I'm just honest with folks.) I've seen that phrased in so many different ways...It's interesting.
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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:39 am
Quote: It's being tortured by demons for all eternity. If you believe in demons, then you should be afraid. Not true. The demons will not be in charge. No one will be in charge. All of them will suffer equally. Refer Matt 25:41 Quote: Let me put it this way: Somewhere around 100 billion people have died on this earth. Of those people, no more than 10 billion were Christian. 90% is a vast majority of people going to Hell My bad. I thought we were still talking about angels. The "exile" is for the fallen angels. Humans haven't even entered the Kingdom of God. There isn't any exile; it's just denied entry. I was referring to angels, not humans. Humanity is a slightly different matter. Quote: That seems rather harsh to me... Yes, well, that is me. (remember I'm talking about angels) What God did was worse. Quote: What exactly were you talking about? The exile and Hell are two different things. Exiling the angels as the action was to make the point. Hell is just a place without God. It's simply a destination. If it's the end of the road, there's no point in trying to "prove" something with its existance like I believe you're asking. Quote: No matter how uninformed those decisions might be? Yes. Because we have no one to blame for us being uninformed, except for ourselves. Quote: So really, Hell is just punishment for people who are going to Heaven anyway? I can live with that. ...Come again? Quote: I've seen that phrased in so many different ways...It's interesting Don't think you know everything just because you have seen it before in a different form. It is truth, and truth takes different forms. Don't abuse my good nature. I only use it when I'm trying to help. If you don't want help, then stop asking me questions.
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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:03 pm
Lyneun Quote: It's being tortured by demons for all eternity. If you believe in demons, then you should be afraid. Not true. The demons will not be in charge. No one will be in charge. All of them will suffer equally. Refer Matt 25:41 Ah, I see. My point still stands: It's going to be bad.
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