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 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:25 pm
Fiddlers Green Gho the Girl Recursive Paradox Fiddlers Green Just to clarify, would expecting her to accompany him to church not be exerting his Christian Privilege? It depends. Does he make consistent attempts to convert her? Does going to church interfere directly with her religion? The effects of his actions would determine whether or not he's evoking religion privilege or not. Agreed. If a Jewish friend of mine needed a ride to church, and wanted me with them to support them, as long as they don't ask me to participate unnecessarily or limit their requests to their physical needs (transportation, comfort, etc) and some emotional ones (loneliness, fear) they aren't pressuring their religion on me, and I'm only there for them, not their faith. So, it's okay to expect my homosexual friends to come with me to the local Mormon Church? Depends upon why you're asking them. Are you physically disabled to the point where you require assistance getting to and from there, moving around the building, and finally, would your homosexual friends be in danger of physical harm being enacted on their person? Really, your question is too vague and I sense a little dissimilar from the situation. Quote: This whole mess seems to assume a bit too much for my tastes. Well, those are your tastes. I disagree with them. Quote: Personally, if they don't share a religion, barring parental authority, I'm not seeing why someone is not within their rights to not go. Given the situation, the parental authority, and enactment of privilege, this isn't her father asking to take her to church to convert or save her, he's asking his daughter to help him live his life which he cannot do himself seeing as how he's disabled so severly. If there wasn't a difference in physical disability and he wasn't her father, then yes, you'd be right, but I see no reason why you bring it up considering that no one was saying that she is obliged to regardless of any extenuating circumstances. Quote: Family time should be family time, if Family time = Church time, it seems like religious privilege to me. The assumption that any family member aught feel obligated to assist with this seems concordant with expecting any family member to assist in any other majority activity on the assumption that it is the fitting and normal thing to to. That the father might not even consider that he is asking his offspring to accompany him to a place she finds offensive smacks of privilege as I understand it as well. If he had asked her to take him to the circus, and she found circuses extremely annoying, I would have expected her to take him. Quote: Again, this lacks enough information for me to really call on, however, it does bring to my mind the question as to whether Parental privilege is ever an issue. Parents hold authority over a child, because they raise that child, feed that child, and as long as they aren't using their authority to abuse the child, the child is indebted to the parent, not the least of reasons being the giving to them of life. Whether the child chooses to respect this debt is entirely up to them.
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:56 pm
Okay, I guess I feel that this is not one of the "Worst Things You Can Say As a Pagan". At least from my perspective, it's a disconnected anecdote of a child and her father.
How old is the father? How old is the mother? How old is the child? How badly is his health effected by the weather? How many others are there in the Church? How old is the daughter? How frequently does he request help? Does he have any devices to assist in his mobility? What would the child be doing if not assisting?
etc, etc, etc...
I'm certainly not saying I approve of what she did, especially if it did happen as was noted down (I somehow expect she edited the story for brevity or to make herself seem more "cool" or whatever. )
I guess I just feel like the idea of taking this and pinning privilege is... I don't know.
Removing the jerky behavior and parent-child relationship, since this part is just about him being a PWD talking with a person without, it is a PWD asking for help from a peer. Okay, so if the peer disagrees, then is that person using her privilege as an able bodied person? If she goes, is the PWD assuming another type of privilege that he deserves to be helped at the expense of others time?
Or is it just that I'm an incredibly insensitive a**?
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:41 pm
Ashley the Bee Okay, I guess I feel that this is not one of the "Worst Things You Can Say As a Pagan". At least from my perspective, it's a disconnected anecdote of a child and her father. How old is the father? How old is the mother? How old is the child? How badly is his health effected by the weather? How many others are there in the Church? How old is the daughter? How frequently does he request help? Does he have any devices to assist in his mobility? What would the child be doing if not assisting? etc, etc, etc... I'm certainly not saying I approve of what she did, especially if it did happen as was noted down (I somehow expect she edited the story for brevity or to make herself seem more "cool" or whatever. ) I guess I just feel like the idea of taking this and pinning privilege is... I don't know. Removing the jerky behavior and parent-child relationship, since this part is just about him being a PWD talking with a person without, it is a PWD asking for help from a peer. Okay, so if the peer disagrees, then is that person using her privilege as an able bodied person? If she goes, is the PWD assuming another type of privilege that he deserves to be helped at the expense of others time? Or is it just that I'm an incredibly insensitive a**? Here's the thing: He's not talking to a peer. He's talking to his child. To look at her as his peer is faulty because she's not. You can't remove the parent child relationship from this because he has authority over her, and seemingly in more ways than just being a parent because she seems to still live at home. We can't call her a peer. We can't see her as one, because to remove the parent-child relationship is to remove the context of the situation. Someone who she is indebted too needed her help to be able to live his life, and she didn't give it. That's the fact of the matter. Can he be helped at the expense of her? Yes, because she's indebted to him. There's a lot more going on here than just a discrepancy between a person with disability and a person without disability.
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:58 am
Celeblin Galadeneryn Here's the thing: He's not talking to a peer. He's talking to his child. To look at her as his peer is faulty because she's not. You can't remove the parent child relationship from this because he has authority over her, and seemingly in more ways than just being a parent because she seems to still live at home. We can't call her a peer. We can't see her as one, because to remove the parent-child relationship is to remove the context of the situation. Someone who she is indebted too needed her help to be able to live his life, and she didn't give it. Okay, so she's ungrateful. Celeblin Galadeneryn That's the fact of the matter. Can he be helped at the expense of her? Yes, because she's indebted to him. There's a lot more going on here than just a discrepancy between a person with disability and a person without disability. Then why is there even a focus on this aspect? If that was the problem, it should be a problem in all cases, not only when there was a parent-child relationship at play. So, this really comes down to a simple thing. A parent has asked his child for help and the child didn't want to provide it. At that point the conversation derails into debt a child owes to her parents. After all, I don't recall ever actually asking to be born. Probably a bad idea to go into that though ._.
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:04 am
Ashley the Bee Celeblin Galadeneryn Here's the thing: He's not talking to a peer. He's talking to his child. To look at her as his peer is faulty because she's not. You can't remove the parent child relationship from this because he has authority over her, and seemingly in more ways than just being a parent because she seems to still live at home. We can't call her a peer. We can't see her as one, because to remove the parent-child relationship is to remove the context of the situation. Someone who she is indebted too needed her help to be able to live his life, and she didn't give it. Okay, so she's ungrateful. Celeblin Galadeneryn That's the fact of the matter. Can he be helped at the expense of her? Yes, because she's indebted to him. There's a lot more going on here than just a discrepancy between a person with disability and a person without disability. Then why is there even a focus on this aspect? If that was the problem, it should be a problem in all cases, not only when there was a parent-child relationship at play. So, this really comes down to a simple thing. A parent has asked his child for help and the child didn't want to provide it. At that point the conversation derails into debt a child owes to her parents. After all, I don't recall ever actually asking to be born. Probably a bad idea to go into that though ._. Okay, technically none of us asked to be born, and yet, here we are. Technically, some of our mothers didn't ask to be pregnant with us, and yet they did, and they chose to keep us instead of aborting us, so that's a way we are in debt to our parents. Some parents could have put us up for adoption, but they didn't. And we have all this on us when we're conceived and born. We haven't even hit the toddler years, and wait until you get to the teen years when your mom keeps giving the threat "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out." for various reasons. Point being, even though we didn't ask to be born, we still owe it to people for our existence. So, in the argument of "The child is indebted to the parents" is valid.
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:38 am
I'm sorry. I'm clearly wrong.
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:43 am
Ashley the Bee I'm sorry. I'm clearly wrong. o.O? I agree with an awful lot of what you're saying.
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:18 pm
For me it isn't that he's her father, nor is it that she didn't want to (or even didn't go with him)
She gave an absolute, was intensely dismissive and didn't take into account him being PWD and whether this is simply a request to help with his disability.
That is what is privileged, problematic and bad here. Her tact, her assumptions and her way of handling the situation. She didn't have to go to church with him. She just needed to not be a hugely insensitive ableist a** about it.
I mean hell, she treated his disabilities as an excuse to get her to church! How ******** self absorbed and able privileged do you have to be to actually treat something like that as a ******** excuse?! That is what enrages me. Not the fact that she didn't go to church with him.
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:04 pm
Right, just to clarify...
It's not privilege if you are in a position of (legitimate) authority then?
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:07 pm
Fiddlers Green Right, just to clarify... It's not privilege if you are in a position of (legitimate) authority then? In this case, at least as I see it the father has the earned privilege to ask his daughter to help him go to church. She has the unearned privilege as one who is able bodied to say no. His privilege is earned, she just happens to be able bodied. But for me that's not the entirety of the problem. She also was egregiously disrespectful to him
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:45 pm
Gho the Girl Fiddlers Green Right, just to clarify... It's not privilege if you are in a position of (legitimate) authority then? I'd say so. It's a little more complex than that- but you're on the right track. There's privilege and then there's unearned privilege. For example, I am privileged to earn more than my peers at work. That privilege is earned by virtue of my productivity and the other items discussed in my review. This privilege can be revoked by my supervisors at their discretion. Likewise, different people in positions of authority have earned privilege- and quite likely, unearned privilege as well. An example of unearned privilege I receive is that by virtue of having boobs, one of my bosses defaults to asking teammates without boobs to do the heavy lifting. I don't indulge this behavior on his part. I often roll my eyes and throw in with my other teammates because frankly, I'm physically stronger than most of them. Said boss is in a position to order me not to. It would be sexist and stupid on his part- and would count as a violation of our company's anti-harassment guidelines. Everyone has privilege. Everyone likely has a mix of earned and unearned privilege. How aware we make ourselves and what actions we take is the difference between silent consent to the perpetuation of unearned privilege and changing the world we live in to grant an equal chance to all.
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:48 pm
TeaDidikai Gho the Girl Fiddlers Green Right, just to clarify... It's not privilege if you are in a position of (legitimate) authority then? I'd say so. It's a little more complex than that- but you're on the right track. There's privilege and then there's unearned privilege. For example, I am privileged to earn more than my peers at work. That privilege is earned by virtue of my productivity and the other items discussed in my review. This privilege can be revoked by my supervisors at their discretion. Likewise, different people in positions of authority have earned privilege- and quite likely, unearned privilege as well. An example of unearned privilege I receive is that by virtue of having boobs, one of my bosses defaults to asking teammates without boobs to do the heavy lifting. I don't indulge this behavior on his part. I often roll my eyes and throw in with my other teammates because frankly, I'm physically stronger than most of them. Said boss is in a position to order me not to. It would be sexist and stupid on his part- and would count as a violation of our company's anti-harassment guidelines. Everyone has privilege. Everyone likely has a mix of earned and unearned privilege. How aware we make ourselves and what actions we take is the difference between silent consent to the perpetuation of unearned privilege and changing the world we live in to grant an equal chance to all. Gotcha. 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:31 am
So, when a legally elected government exerts/institutionalizes privilege, it is also fine?
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:53 am
Fiddlers Green So, when a legally elected government exerts/institutionalizes privilege, it is also fine? Which kinds of privilege. Though I'm admittedly not the best person to answer this. Disrespecting the elderly just ranks high on my "s**t you don't do" list. I have a pretty large bias here.
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