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 Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:52 am
Se Ga Takai You know, I have a slight feeling I could get along with you. At first I had thought that I hadn't explained clearly enough, but if someone else gets it...hmm. Glad to have ye around ^_^ Glad to be here and see people who are fighting for the rights of others >_< that always makes me happy. I'm glad you others in this guild can see the light. Exspecially Christian's... It takes a lot confidence, it seems, for Christian's to stick up for others different than them these days, its really kinda sad. PirateEire Well said, Taralanthalasa. (Gads, that's a long name if I've ever heard one.) Reverse psychology confuses some in this guild however, so I'm not sure that example with the majority of homosexual couples supressing the minority of heterosexual ones will get through. Have you heard of the heterosexual questionnaire by Martin Rochlin? It's basically a questionnaire of questions often asked to homosexuals, but in the reverse. I posted it once in this guild and got a few strange reactions. Flew over the 2 or 3 peoples' heads who read it (and for some reason took the liberty to answer each and every single one of the questions.) They then denied that homosexuals have ever been asked any of the questions in reverse. I have been asked most of them... in regards to homosexuality. Still, denied. My girlfriend took a class on homosexuality. She said she was taught that homophobia, not unlike racism, is nearly impossible to talk someone out of, becuase when convenient, a homophobe or a racist, or sexist, or anything to that effect with feign ignorance. (Maybe it's not feigning though...) In a nutshell, closed minds are hard to open... almost impossible. Yes I did see it in this guild. And homosexuals HAVE been asked those questions, I've been asked a few of them, and I know my homosexual guy friend was asked many of them too... usually the first few questions. Yup... defenatly hard to open closed minds sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:51 am
Rowena Marion On Moral Relativism (since we have crashed and burned into off topic anywhoo): I actually agree with Burny. Yes, there is such a thing as an opinion. But God sets what is right and what is wrong. The law is there, even if we don't know it yet in whole.to go back to the "Opinion" that water is 2 parts oxygen and 1 part hydrogen--before we could prove that water was made up of these chemicals, I'm sure there were different opinions. Regardless of what the other opinions were, the person with an opinion of h2o was CORRECT. I try to think of moralism in the same way. If everything else has an absolute (you know, like death and taxes), I don't see how it makes sense to say that morals are any different. It's the same as belief in God. I say there is a God, someone else says there isn't. They are different opinions, yes, but just because it isn't "proven" doesn't change the fact that one of us is most definitely right, while the other is most definitely wrong. so, argue relativism all you want, but I believe in ONE Truth (and Way and Life, actually)--not billions. Emphasis on Bold. whichever path may be the absolute one, we're stil basing off of opinion, and of course, faith. But without hard evidence or the direct word from God in Modern Times, we can't force a belief on others.
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:11 am
Row, Burn. The point I'm trying to make is that there are a thousand different interpretations of "God's Will". So, which one of those is absolute right and wrong?
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:22 am
Se Ga Takai Rowena Marion On Moral Relativism (since we have crashed and burned into off topic anywhoo): I actually agree with Burny. Yes, there is such a thing as an opinion. But God sets what is right and what is wrong. The law is there, even if we don't know it yet in whole.to go back to the "Opinion" that water is 2 parts oxygen and 1 part hydrogen--before we could prove that water was made up of these chemicals, I'm sure there were different opinions. Regardless of what the other opinions were, the person with an opinion of h2o was CORRECT. I try to think of moralism in the same way. If everything else has an absolute (you know, like death and taxes), I don't see how it makes sense to say that morals are any different. It's the same as belief in God. I say there is a God, someone else says there isn't. They are different opinions, yes, but just because it isn't "proven" doesn't change the fact that one of us is most definitely right, while the other is most definitely wrong. so, argue relativism all you want, but I believe in ONE Truth (and Way and Life, actually)--not billions. Emphasis on Bold. whichever path may be the absolute one, we're stil basing off of opinion, and of course, faith. But without hard evidence or the direct word from God in Modern Times, we can't force a belief on others.
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:50 am
Se Ga Takai Rowena Marion On Moral Relativism (since we have crashed and burned into off topic anywhoo): I actually agree with Burny. Yes, there is such a thing as an opinion. But God sets what is right and what is wrong. The law is there, even if we don't know it yet in whole.to go back to the "Opinion" that water is 2 parts oxygen and 1 part hydrogen--before we could prove that water was made up of these chemicals, I'm sure there were different opinions. Regardless of what the other opinions were, the person with an opinion of h2o was CORRECT. I try to think of moralism in the same way. If everything else has an absolute (you know, like death and taxes), I don't see how it makes sense to say that morals are any different. It's the same as belief in God. I say there is a God, someone else says there isn't. They are different opinions, yes, but just because it isn't "proven" doesn't change the fact that one of us is most definitely right, while the other is most definitely wrong. so, argue relativism all you want, but I believe in ONE Truth (and Way and Life, actually)--not billions. Emphasis on Bold. whichever path may be the absolute one, we're stil basing off of opinion, and of course, faith. But without hard evidence or the direct word from God in Modern Times, we can't force a belief on others. Seconded. You see, the chemicals found in water, since we love this example so darn much, are something that can be proven. An absolute morality can not because of cultural differences, and because of different faiths. Rowena, per your example, you could be in a time before the chemicals in water were proven. You might be a part of the more wide-spread and popular belief that there is absolutely no way there could be oxygen in water. There are those that would disagree with you, of course. Until it was proven, no one would be right. It would all be opinion, and you may be right, or you may be wrong. In regards to morality, it is not likely that an absolute moral system exists. Morality is personal... it is subject to the views of an individual. There are plenty of things that don't have an absolute, especially when dealing with the humanly definition off all of those little intangible nuissances that spin our heads--like the limit of imagination, thought, the existence of souls, or a god, or morals, or the best governing body for all people, etc etc. No absolute. I would tell you that there is no God, and that it is up to you to define your own morals to best suit your way of life, but that might not rest well with some. I think that even if God's existence were proven, many people would not agree with his morality. I for one, would not. God's morality would still be a personal morality--sure, one that many had adopted--but it would still be a personal thing to him. I would much rather spend time with the devil a good distance from God, and live according to my own morality. Even a diety's morality cannot be completely absolute. If I am making absolutely no sense, I apologise. I'm so very multi-taskful here at work. I keep confusing myself too... The phone rings, and I want to pick up and say "Thank you for calling Moral Relativism, how can I help you?" >.>
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:05 am
PirateEire If I am making absolutely no sense, I apologise. I'm so very multi-taskful here at work. I keep confusing myself too... The phone rings, and I want to pick up and say "Thank you for calling Moral Relativism, how can I help you?" >.> That's soo funny! heart It makes since to me though... but if a God or gods are proven to be real... would it really be wise or benifical to a person to not follow the moral code of said God or gods? EDIT: I suppose... there will always be people who don't care, and well do what they want anyway... so... really it doesn't matter.
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:10 am
Taralanthalasa I suppose... there will always be people who don't care, and well do what they want anyway... so... really it doesn't matter. That'd be me. biggrin
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:04 am
ShadowCat495 I think most of us who are against it, care too much. Why? it doesn't effect you, or your belief in God.
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:19 am
PirateEire The phone rings, and I want to pick up and say "Thank you for calling Moral Relativism, how can I help you?" >.> darn you for that. now it's all I will be thinking about the next time I answer a phone at work...... And really, I think we are all in the same ballpark on the moral relativism topic....and I realise that it can't be proven--at least not on this side of death. I still believe that two oposites cannot be true just because of a difference in opinion. It's more likely, say, if I believe the sky is green and someone else believes the sky is orange that we are, in fact, both uterly and totally wrong. Face it: as far as cosmic stuff goes, we are ignorant as a race. that's just kinda how it is....
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:11 pm
That we are.
But anyway, back to the topic--nothing new, just a reaffirmation:
Sin or not, "immoral" or not, the ban on gay marriage needs to be removed.
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:36 pm
PirateEire That we are. But anyway, back to the topic--nothing new, just a reaffirmation: Sin or not, "immoral" or not, the ban on gay marriage needs to be removed. Agreed! 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:03 pm
Se Ga Takai i like burnination Taralanthalasa Me but one of them must be right and the other wrong. truth is not dependant upon humans, but instead upon a much higher Being who is the source of truth. So who are you to say someone or something is wrong then? Lets leave the judging thing to God on judgement day, shall we? of course. because the Ten Commandements doesn't mean anything. That's not the debate here. Where in the Ten Commandments does it declare Homosexuality as wrong? i thought the debate turned into whether truth was relative. Besides, i've already given my case against homosexuality. Se Ga Takai i like burnination and telling someone something is wrong =/= judging. might want to look up the defenition for judging, then. The defenitions match up pretty well. gah, another case of my being unable to articulate myself in the manner that i wish. the defintion i found for judging was "condemning someone based on moral grounds." the two are not mututally exclusive. judging means that one has the power to condemn. i do not have the ability to declare anyone to be anathema, because obviously only God can do that. however, at the same time i can tell an unbeliever that they are going to Hell because it is not my judgement but rather God's and i am merely repeating the judgement. i am not going to get into evangelistic procedure, but i will say that obviously such a saying would be out of love and not without an explanation of why. now, if i tell someone something is wrong, i'm not really condemning. if i did it out of love and out of concern for the state of their eternal soul, Christian or not, then i am entitled to do so. why do you think people have the spiritual gift of exhortation? Se Ga Takai i like burnination Taralanthalasa Me who are you to tell me anything? how can you say that relativism is true? stop imposing your beliefs on me. humm... sounds familair, don't it? you don't like poeple pushing things on you, so why push things on other people? Pushing Bible verses in peoples faces about homosexual marriage is pushing your beliefs on people who may not understand, believe in, or welcome Christianity. Therfore its invailid to argue based on scripture, because not everyone believes in the same thing. of course it sounds familiar. it's called sarcasm. i used a common cry of relativists to denounce relativism. Some people don't like certain words of teh English LAnguage. Some people don't like Meat. Some people just don't like Potatoes. Should they all be allowed to be different, or are we just going to disallow Meat and Potatoes, kinda like we disallow certain words? i'm not saying that i'm going to launch a crusade and destroy anyone who has a different opinion. however, i will try and change people's minds when they're wrong. i'm sure most everyone does that. DemigoddessHalfdemon Burnination. You say that there is an absolute right and wrong. That morality is not relative. So I ask you: Who decides what is right, and what is wrong? God.
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:23 pm
oh, and i forgot to ask this ...
are some of you asserting that are countries or places where liars and thieves are treated with respect and high regard? or better yet that there is a person out there who would go up to a serial rapist, pat him on the back, shake his hand, and say "good job"?
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:44 pm
i like burnination Se Ga Takai i like burnination Taralanthalasa Me but one of them must be right and the other wrong. truth is not dependant upon humans, but instead upon a much higher Being who is the source of truth. So who are you to say someone or something is wrong then? Lets leave the judging thing to God on judgement day, shall we? of course. because the Ten Commandements doesn't mean anything. That's not the debate here. Where in the Ten Commandments does it declare Homosexuality as wrong? i thought the debate turned into whether truth was relative. Besides, i've already given my case against homosexuality. The debate extended into whether or not morals were relative to the topic, not truth. And everyone else has given their opinion on homosexual marrage too. Like mine is that it should be legal becuase if your born homosexual, then its not a choice, and not unnatural, so people should not be judged by other people because they are different from them. i like burnination Se Ga Takai i like burnination and telling someone something is wrong =/= judging. might want to look up the defenition for judging, then. The defenitions match up pretty well. gah, another case of my being unable to articulate myself in the manner that i wish. the defintion i found for judging was "condemning someone based on moral grounds." the two are not mututally exclusive. judging means that one has the power to condemn. i do not have the ability to declare anyone to be anathema, because obviously only God can do that. however, at the same time i can tell an unbeliever that they are going to Hell because it is not my judgement but rather God's and i am merely repeating the judgement. i am not going to get into evangelistic procedure, but i will say that obviously such a saying would be out of love and not without an explanation of why. now, if i tell someone something is wrong, i'm not really condemning. if i did it out of love and out of concern for the state of their eternal soul, Christian or not, then i am entitled to do so. why do you think people have the spiritual gift of exhortation? Did you happen to take a look at the difinitions Priate and I gave? And you can't give God's judgement. Only God can do that. You don't know how He's going to judge people on judgement day. Really now, come on. Your judging in God's place. Which is against the Ten Commandments. Talking to people about the Bible is great. If their willing to hear it, and take the time to understand it. Other than that, all efforts are in vain. Unfortunately for those who are against homosexual marriage, pulling out bible verses isn't going to help. People don't want to hear it, and it makes matters worse. Honestly. It makes others dislike our beliefs. Think about it. i like burnination Se Ga Takai i like burnination Taralanthalasa Me who are you to tell me anything? how can you say that relativism is true? stop imposing your beliefs on me. humm... sounds familair, don't it? you don't like poeple pushing things on you, so why push things on other people? Pushing Bible verses in peoples faces about homosexual marriage is pushing your beliefs on people who may not understand, believe in, or welcome Christianity. Therfore its invailid to argue based on scripture, because not everyone believes in the same thing. of course it sounds familiar. it's called sarcasm. i used a common cry of relativists to denounce relativism. Some people don't like certain words of teh English LAnguage. Some people don't like Meat. Some people just don't like Potatoes. Should they all be allowed to be different, or are we just going to disallow Meat and Potatoes, kinda like we disallow certain words? i'm not saying that i'm going to launch a crusade and destroy anyone who has a different opinion. however, i will try and change people's minds when they're wrong. i'm sure most everyone does that. Difine wrong? Can't someone only be wrong if it's proven? Prove then, that homosexauls aren't born homosexual and that it is, by fact(not belief) a choice. Because I don't ever remember choosing to have interest in both girls and boys. I just did. i like burnination DemigoddessHalfdemon Burnination. You say that there is an absolute right and wrong. That morality is not relative. So I ask you: Who decides what is right, and what is wrong? God. If He decides what is right and what is wrong, then you don't... so you don't have the right to say whether or not someone should be aloud to marry. When the time comes we'll all know His judgement, whether there's homosexual marriage or not.
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