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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:23 pm
As Lith plainly put it: "Saying you could abuse of it its like saying you could abuse for just traning Chakra or any other ability."
The Chakra mod increases your Cp every level, deals with Ninjutsu damage, and temporarily boosts your skill through jutsu like the Body Replacement Technique.
The Endurance mod increases your health and deals with some weapon damages. As I previously put it, I've fought two NPC's with extreme levels of endurance, lending them a lot of health, and they were the toughest shinobi that I've faced as of yet.
@Opal: In order for your body to memorize the movements and relay the reactions to any given situation, your mind must first teach your body to do it. It's not like our bodies are born with the ability to know how to walk or speak properly, we must constantly observe and study our surroundings to learn these sorts of things.
@Shuga: You know, the concept of "dumb jocks" being good at sports crossed my mind as I was thinking about this suggestion as well. However, "dumb jocks" would have high strength/agility/endurance mods in our guild, which would explain why they were so good at sports. These abilities represent raw talent, which is what dumb jocks rely on.
Here is another suggestion: Why don't we make the Strength, Agility, and Charisma mods more important in our guild? For instance, we could set a DC on a mission that involved moving a large rock that is blocking a path, and the DC is based around the strength mod? We could even go as far as to add bonuses for those abilities, so that characters will be more compelled to use them.
If the bonus for Intelligence changes, then it should also change for Endurance and Chakra, because characters can manipulate those just as easily.
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:33 am
I think I know what the issue is!
It's the incredibly high DCs. They go up into the 300s or even to the 600s. Once you level up, the ease in gaining skill points becomes so much more worth it than an improved ability mod. I don't know if abilities have caps in this guild, but I've also noticed that it's a lot harder to train abilities, and that makes sense. (I'm not suggesting changing the system fundamentally, because that would be very messy sweatdrop )
But anyway, if the DCs weren't so high, people wouldn't be motivated to gain skill points easily. Maybe make the DCs lower, but conversely make gaining each skill point harder.
I still believe that int has to modify skill points gained per level, but maybe there can be a cap on that? Intelligence is not all-deciding after all, even if it plays a part. Or you can make the points gained much less. It makes sense that someone who is smarter will have naturally thought about the most efficient way to do something, and gain advantages based on that... but not advantages of THAT much.
[If it's not clear what I'm saying, look at the DCs. A DC of 300 would be maybe 10% max made up of the ability modifier. That's a mod of 30, requiring an ability of 70. What's the other 90% made of? Skill points. It would require a LOT of dedication to train 270 skill points from scratch sweatdrop People are given incentives to up Intelligence. But that's not how it works in real life. You can have given a lot of thought into something, but ultimately, if you don't have the physical capabilities, it's just not going to happen. Skill points shouldn't play THAT much of a role in making a DC or even just in normal role play.]
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:13 am
I've always felt uneasy that Intelligence is so vital, probably more so than any other ability. Tanu and Orika are roughly the same level, but Tanu has only 57 skills points (mod 3) where Orika has 78 (mod 5): A 21 skill point difference for 4 ability points.
People don't learn everything equally easy, no matter how smart or observant they are. An artist who can copy a drawing just by watching others would not be as capable at copying wrestling moves. Both skill areas use different parts of the brain. This is why we have abilities.
IDEA #1: Instead of having your level affect how many skill points you get, what if a person received 5 skills to distribute per level up? That would make Abilities more useful in comparison to skills.
IDEA #2: Scrap Ability and Skill bonuses for level ups altogether. It doesn't make sense RP-wise for a person to suddenly get a whole lot stronger when the process should be gradual. RPGs do this because normally you don't gain Skills or Abilities with exp, but in Shima, you do. This way, the amount of skills you get will depend on training and hard work only.
OTHER TOPICS: Cp and Hp should stay the way they are. The more effort you put into training your End, the more hits your character will be able to sustain. That's natural. As for Genjutsu affecting Cp, that's a necessary trade off like how some weapons use Agility Mod, but the damage comes from Chakra Mod. The specials Genjutsu users get make up for the drawback. Similarly, weapons relying not on strength mod should get specials.
People brought up how one can have a super low ability, but really high skills points. What about a) requiring that skills do not exceed double the Ability mod after level 5 or b) having stricter Ability requirements for techniques, poisons, and the like.
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:26 am
Aznka a) requiring that skills do not exceed double the Ability mod after level 5 If you did that, like I said, you'd have to decrease DCs/skill requirements a WHOLE lot XD
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:41 am
@Aznka: We need the skills and abilities rewards for level ups due to the requirements for learning techniques.
@Katz: The basis in which I suggest Intelligence to aid in CP is the fact that the ability is directly linked to 3 skills that utilize Chakra.
@Everyone: Zu said he wanted profiles and stats to reflect who characters are. That was the standing I was taking on the issue from the logical point and not from the mathematical. I encourage you to take a look at the math more than the logistics of it. If you put logic aside, it gives a huge bias to have Intelligence have such a big control over skill gain mathematically and systematically.
I also encourage everyone to not bring up other issues and to just focus on the one we are currently discussing. If you bring up other issues now, we will get side-tracked and nothing will get completely resolved if we jump around. Thank you.
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:08 pm
5huga I'll admit that I'm one of those that take advantage of Intelligence being linked with skills. I hardly ever train, because I've had an Intelligence modifier of 8 since almost level 2. heart You know its bad that my character can keep up with everyone else's at my rank skill wise when I post like once a week.
You know that most game systems go by a set reward of skills per level up. I think the Intelligence gain just carried over from Wonton and was a bad installment. I go with Opal in her statement that Intelligence is hardly linked to learning physical skills. How many dumb jocks are amazing at football, running, dancing, cheerleading, etc. I'm not saying all jocks are dumb, so no one flame off of that. Hey! I take offense to that! I’ll have you know my chemistry skills are of the charts as well as my football career. Not only that I’m the top ballet dancer in my college too ^_^.Now that is out of the way, let us get to business. And hopefully I can make this coherent. As I stated all of you have made good arguments on both ends for this. It is not an easy decision because you have to look at it through many perspectives, the two biggest being a logical sense and game wise sense.
I terms of manipulation of the intelligence brought up. From a gaming perspective, regardless what changes something will always be manipulated to a certain point. In a game, the thrill of competition is always present and some people will always look for the best way to tsrive on top. Even in the game of chess where everyone has equal pieces, there are preferred and more used strategies than others. In sports there are also certain strategies or certain players always added to a team that everyone tries to keep or want. We drop intelligence and then the next big one will be the chakra or strength mod. Instead of manipulation through gaining more skills it may just start to be ‘what stat is most effective to be used’ and then everyone may just go to that stat. The other part of it maybe just the want to feel your character getting somewhere with learning skills. The more skills points the closer you get to that jutsu that you want to learn. In that respect then Lu’s idea is near perfect.
Now for the logical side of this In terms of logic now intelligence does play a part. Someone brought up muscle memory. Well muscle memory comes with experience and practice. Two people of similar physical prowess can be determined by their intelligence. Who may last longer is the person who knows how to punch and take a punch or the guy who puts all that tension he can in one limb to swing at the person and then when that guy is attacked his just tries to use move into the hit. Or you can say a track star that has all the speed or endurance, but doesn’t know the correct way in running. Don’t mix pure physical talent with technique.
Yet there is another side to this that almost everyone seems to forget about. Missions incorporate all stats. Someone training in only one thing purely maybe good in that, but if I have any say they’ll be suffering in missions. Not just with skills, but with mods too. Putting characters in situations out of their element is a nice wake-up call and it’s something I’d like to incorporate in the future. One thing everyone needs to remember too is we are not building stats to face off against one another constantly, if at all. There are only a few characters that are prone to fighting constantly and even then that is situational.
Now as for some of the ideas said so far:
Baylu Eras: A nice idea. And I think you’re on the right track. Just not exactly there as yet.
OpalHime: As for a reflection of character. Ideally it would be so, but that is something totally up to the creator. Even if we did change to Lu’s idea in which everyone gets the same amount of bonuses. Someone could easily devote their stats into something else and still act charismatic. Or have nothing in intelligence and still act like a smart arse. Now game wise and mathematically the intelligence is too high when viewed against characters who do not specialize in it.
Kouri-chan_xx: It is an idea, but that is one that must be done carefully. A character needs something to aspire to, in terms of technique wise. If it’s too high, like some of the DC’s probably are, then people are disillusioned to try them. At the same time too low and characters learn them too quickly. Then either they start learning things out of their field or just stop training. That’s my opinion on that anyways. I could be wrong.
Aznka: A set amount is similar to Lu’s idea. It is something to contemplate although just 5 maybe too little. Especially when you get to higher levels. As for scrapping the abilities I don’t agree with that. We use the skills to determine when we learn a technique. That’s the point of a game system right? If not we’d be a normal rp. No?
Well here’s an idea off the top of my head. Since this seems to be about the mind versus the body, how about we try something like this: You get ½ (Intel Mod + Strength Mod + Character Level). I think we can agree that someone’s overall strength can be based on the intellect and physical talent. Most of the characters tend to flow in between one of those stats and then another. That way there is a possibility for a brawny fighter to get the same amount as the intellectual. This also deals with the experience factor. As someone who’s been practicing a long time should have an easier time to reach a technique than someone of lower level and experience (hopefully that made sense). Also at higher levels when everyone is having a hard time leveling up you shall also be getting a decent amount of experience.
As I have said I’m for a change, but not one that completely alienates the Intel Mod. I’m more for keeping everything as it is, till a better solution is found. But we shall put it to vote. Also remember we can do some of these by trial and error. We probably won’t know for sure until trying some of these out for a few levels… maybe. I’ll take the most viewed ideas and we can vote on them later this week. Anyone else with any ideas post them, regardless if you are new or old. They will be taken into account.
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:29 pm
Hmm.... That is the best idea I've heard yet.
I really like that it makes the Strength Ability more important.
The only suggestion that I have in mind right now is that, now or in the future, we also make the Charisma and Agility Abilities more important in some way. I think it would really stir up a larger variety of ninja.
Jolly good, Katz.
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:08 am
@Katz: That makes no sense if you're like Kanami and plan to beef up your Cha skills. How would strength even play a factor in seducing?
What about just (1/2 x int mod) x chara level?
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:03 am
NO Offense but i really think that by trying to fix what some people think its a flaw or overpower you guys will end up making this a whole lot harder for new players. The system is fine as it is for now
Those of you stating that characters of same level have different numbers of skills yes that happens now But higher levels proves training ability alone wont do you any good. The guild is Stuck at the moment and our focus should be on moving it along! You are comparing low level characters that level up every 6 trainings give or take meaning youll see the difference fast, later on those who focus on training abilities will have a harder time
Easy Fix: Make Training abilities harder! Set Dc for training skills is 10+ skill at a 3/3 and abilities is a 10+ability with a 5/5
Just raise the minimum to 15+ ability and keep the 5/5 for abilities that should be enough to discourage people from focusing only on abilities Or even limit the times you can train abilities per lvl. Say you can train each ability once each level. When you level up then you may train each ability once again. I think that would be another fair option
any other solution would result in us having to yet again fix all jutsu requirements AND all profiles to fit the changes
The whole making otherAbilities important and stuff... Thats just something you can do Rping in Missions. Since there have been rarely any small missions you havent expanded on it. Focusing on big missions with lots of people make us Focus only in the fight and we forget other things.
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:25 am
Lithlius Nailo Easy Fix: Make Training abilities harder! Set Dc for training skills is 10+ skill at a 3/3 and abilities is a 10+ability with a 5/5
Just raise the minimum to 15+ ability and keep the 5/5 for abilities that should be enough to discourage people from focusing only on abilities Or even limit the times you can train abilities per lvl. Say you can train each ability once each level. When you level up then you may train each ability once again. I think that would be another fair option
I agree with Lith on this suggestion. Everyone is worrying training and such, why not just make it harder? I believe that Lith's idea for raising the DC to 15+ ability and keeping the 5/5 is a wise choice. Heck, I even like the idea of raising the DC and then also only allowing a character to train a set amount of times per level for abilities. Maybe not only once per level, but deffinatly keep it to a set minimum. It would make it more fair, specailly since some people train at different speeds (some faster, and more impatient then others *cough* ninja not me or anything ninja *cought* mrgreen ) It would make it more realistic in my opinon, cause then it would quiet litteraly force them to keep a more realistic pace on their training. It would also make those that are a tad.... lazy with their training, realize that they need to step up their game if they want to get anywhere as a shinobi in this RP.
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:38 am
nah we're not gonna make training harder, cause all you can do is training from level 1 to 5. And missions have been adjusted to things other than just fights. We've set more DC's for navigating.
ugh, here's the issue guys: the intelligence ability has too much power in leveling characters. Katz solution: ½ (Intel Mod + Strength Mod + Character Level)
My solution based off of Katz's: ½ (Intel Mod + Charisma Mod + Character Level) Due to the fact that psychology, no matter how much i hate it, has taught me that the ability to enable the skill of imitation (learning what you see) is dependent on thoughts, feelings and interaction, so the charisma area. Also, charisma is the ability that needs a boost in use, so there ya go.
gawd i hate psychology.
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:45 am
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:02 am
present it in the crew area?
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:12 am
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:24 pm
I like this idea too heart
Is there going to be some sort of skill points rehaul then..? (recalculation)
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