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Again with the nihilism! Regardless of whether that's true or not, that's a really shitty way to run a country. Someone could say the same thing about any law, especially including but not limited to abortion. "Well, the world's going to end eventually anyways, so what does it matter?"

Well...while I sorta agree with I.Am, I won't deny that some of the backlash to the Prop 8 outcome was really harsh. Churches were spraypainted with hateful things likening them to the nazis, and people were fired for voting "no" on it.

I think, though, this is like saying "People bomb clinics so Pro-lifers are violent." This is an extreme minority and while they're making themselves look bad, they don't stand for the whole. I can understand being upset by that and not wanting to listen when people behave that way, but it's important to understand that people of every walk of life behave this way. There are Christians who yell and vandalize and torment gay people. It doesn't mean Christians are bad or hateful as a whole. There were people who attacked gay people over Prop 8, did you know that? Like, physically attacked them. And people who attacked Yessers. It's messy stuff.

My church was spraypainted once after some political thing (can't remember if it was gay marriage or abortion related) but that was quite a while before Prop 8.

Actually my biggest fear about gay marriage is the justification of this kind of thing. The "See! See! You ARE hateful bigots! You need to go away because you are BAD people!" Otherwise I don't care that much.

I'm just so tired of it. All of this being called bigoted and the "how would you feel if" for the past few years or so has done very little for me to realize just how bigoted and hateful I am. Really....I've already heard it all. If anything I feel a little more mature, quite misunderstood and exponentially desensitized.

Though...to be honest, in my experience, my grief has been more from heterosexual gay-marriage advocates who are quick to be defensive. Most homosexuals I know have, for the most part, been quite understanding and are aware that one's opinion of gay marriage and their opinion of gays themselves are not necessarily linked.

I...really don't care about things like civil marriages and visitation rights and adoption. However I DO care about being called hateful and a bigot (and having it gradually become socially acceptable to do so) because I belong to a religion that does not believe in gay marriage. After doing more research on the church's position I found that it's a misconception (even among Catholics) that the church is against homosexuality and that it's a sin. The truth is that "homo" or "hetero" doesn't matter. Sexuality is sexuality and it is the ABUSE of sexuality that is the sin regardless of who does it and what their orientation is. Hets abuse sexuality too. Every sin (and I mean EVERY) that a homosexual can commit can be committed and ARE committed by heterosexuals...even married heterosexuals. So you're gay? Big whoop. 'Scuse me while I not run for the hills 'cause you're no worse a person than anyone else.

As for marriage, I'm sick and tired of people assuming that gays get a separate set of rules from the rest of us. They don't. A lot of het couples in loving relationships can't get married in the church either.

I could write an essay but that's it in a nutshell.

I totally understand the desire for legal rights and I am not against it. I don't advocate for it for it but I'm not against it either. How you choose to live your life is your business.

But to tell me I HATE gays because I don't acknowledge gay marriage? Please... While we're at it, tell me I hate my husband too for being agnostic (I think agnostics are wrong too ya know.). You haven't seen anything if I'm the kind of person who is "hateful". I had an uncle who was once shot at "for being gay". A man saw him hugging his college roommate goodbye and shot him (escaped with minor injury). Not to mention murder. You're absolutely nuts if you think I'd ever support something as sickening as that.



Because she believes it to be the TRUTH. Christians do believe in things like respect and tolerance but not at the expense of denying truth. You can affirm the truth and still be respectful. But if "you need to be tolerant" has been reduced to just a euphemism for "you need to have the same opinion I do"...well then screw it.

You don't disagree with me, then. Maybe you just misunderstood my post, but this is basically what I'm saying.

Gays shouldn't be refused the legal rights that heteros get. Simultaneously, no religion should be forced to support something they don't believe in.



I didn't say you hate gays, though I did say that most anti-gay-marriage (Think of it as gay civil unions if it helps; I'm not talking about religious marriage here) folks tend to be anti-gay across the board too. Sorry, but it's true. They find homosexuality disgusting, and they find gays disgusting, because that's the way they justify gay marriage being illegal.

Ironically, you're saying what I was saying.

She said that people who support gay marriage are the closed minded ones. There's no respect there, no tolerance. As I said, I'm a Catholic, I support the Church and the Church's rights. But I also support the gays, and the right of gays to get married in religions that allow it, or to get a civil union under the government. I would absolutely welcome a change in the Catholic Church allowing gay marriages, just gonna say that. But I'm only pushing for legalizing it, not for forcing the Church to allow it.

And I'll respect and tolerate the views of anyone who actually has a reason for having them. But I've yet to hear an actual reason for denying legal, non-religious marriages or civil unions to gays, that wasn't essentially "It's just wrong" or "The Bible says so."

That was more of a general venting than a personal response. If I'm going to talk to you directly, I promise I'll quote you first with the item I specifically have an issue with. sweatdrop

I know you're cool. But the recent path the thread was taking kinda poked a sore spot and I needed to get something off my chest. Although how we chose to react to the situation is different, I understand exactly how Rosary16 feels. There are times where I also wonder why should I bother being okay with something when I'm not granted the same courtesy. My church being vandalized, the people that openly mocked our Mass in San Francisco, and the Prop 8 backlash brought me to the edge of giving the whole "moderate" thing the middle finger. But I smack myself with the "you're generalizing out of anger" fish and try to bring my mind back to a more balanced state. It has to start with someone...

Neutral is a good word for it...

I have noticed a lot of atheists who try to "convert" to atheism. They say it's to "open people's eyes to the truth"- Which sounds a lot like every other religion ever. I find the irony to be very delicious- a bit bitter at first, but it's an acquired taste.

my point of veiw is whether or not that children should be raised in it moraly it is wrong on all fronts and besides if God intented us to be gay he would have made adam and dave or eve and lou not adam and eve if anyone every realy read the bible and is reliouse and, has the interpitantion of it correctly will see that God told people it was wrong on all stages i am againts it but anyone can agrue im open to listen