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 Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:16 am
YvetteEmilieDupont you know you could work on it on the plane because i don't think poland is just a hop skip and jump away from israel lol I tried, but I fell asleep the second we took off and woke up 5 minuites before landing time razz . And I need ideas xd . If anyone has an idea, PM me or contact me on msn please, thanks heart ! darkphoenix1247 Please try to phrase things in a polite manner. Instead of saying, "wrong," say something like, "I'm sorry-I'm not sure if your information is accurate." yay, someone that agrees with my politeness policy. I think said something similar before, right? mrgreen sweatdrop nathan_ngl Secondly, when you dissagree, you say "excuse me, i think otherwise" not "wrong"... and we all feel alittle better. Thought so xd . No one listens to me though xp ! No fair crying ! ZonkotheSane my bad sweatdrop i guess it's my fault-i'm the one who brought this back from page 3.... Though was forgiven even before he said anything mrgreen
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:00 am
stolen from jewfaq.org Quote: Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest. It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste. I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. Essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing. Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.
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Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:19 am
ZonkotheSane nathan_ngl ZonkotheSane nathan_ngl ZonkotheSane nathan_ngl Let's just make something clear, the torah doesn't say anything about lesbians... only males sex is mentioned. wrong. although it doesn't mention lesbians in the pshat, it is inclusive, because of the way it's worded. see my post on page 7. pshat my dear, pshat. Homosexual acts between women (lesbianism) were forbidden by the rabbis on the basis of the Biblical verse "Do not follow the ways of Egypt where you once lived, nor of Canaan, where I will be bringing you. Do not follow [any] of their customs." (Leviticus 18:3). The oral law (Sifra Aharei Mot 8:8-9) explains that what is meant is sexual customs and that one of those was the marriage of women to each other, as well as a man to a woman and her daughter. The Talmud follows this view, forbidding lesbianism. Like all Rabbinical prohibitions, violation can incur lashes. Female homosexual behaviour, because there is no penile penetration involved, is regarded as less serious than male homosexual behaviour.This is derabanan.... Besides, we aren't talking just orthodox here... i meant in addition to that. the ruling on lesbianism is also learnt out from the pussuk in vayikra. Correct 3nodding , It's written in sifra (a midrash hagada on vayikra). I beleive it's actually in this week's parsha if I'm not mistaken 3nodding .
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:13 am
Man you guys really know how to battle it out razz
I wanted to post my general view about this because the subject has crossed my mind more then once.
There are bisexuals and homosexuals all over the place, in ever community. I had a few in my school and they were dealt with by expelling them when they were found out. (I go to an Ulpenah, an all girls bnei akiva highschool) so having bisexuals as dormers might create a problem... as most people arent bisexual ^^"
Anyway I dont think they should be shunted out of the community like that, but I know that they dont have any real place in it anyway as bisexualism and homosexualism in forbiden. (as well as transexualism!)
In the most normal sence, when a man and women mate in Judaism its for the sole purpose of bringing forth children and building a family
Its a beautiful thing and the Torah encourages it, whitin a married couple of course.
Two men or two women can NOT bring forth children, obviously, so although they lust for each other, what is the point? Just for sexual pleasure?
As was mentioned before, even if a man has homosexual desires and decides to ignore them he is righteous, even more then other men who have no such desires.
Okay, maybe he is, but there's a problem with that too. I have a friend, who's sister who is strictly religious like any other person and who married a homosexual guy. Im not sure why or whatever but in the end they divorced. A man who has no attraction to women cannot have children with them for obvious reasons. So it just doesnt work.
They say that bisexualism or homosexualism is something truly hormonal, although most people think its only psycological. Its not just a fixation someone has, its what they feel they want and need. So their problem can only be fixed by extensive care, and I dunno what else but they need a psycologist too. Its not natural for a women to mate with a women and a man with another man. I think the main point is lost.
NO gay rabbies or chalachic leaders, Im sorry but that is totally out. Its agaist the torah's laws!! (as stated about... 40 times in this post razz )
And if a rabbi, a religious leader openly goes againt the laws in the torah that is the biggest chillul Hashem in the world! (desecration of the lord's name)
My blief is to love all of Israel and all the Jews even if they r very different from me. I will not encourage Rabbis that think being gay or bi is ok, nor will I agree to encourage homosexualism and bisexualism in Judiasm, but I think that it is important to show thse people we think they should change and that we r willing to help.
Im not a professional on this subject, so i dont know exactly how an individual can help, but Im sure there r ways. smile
I dont think its these peple's fault they feel different needs though and they can be WONDERFUL people so... my opinion is not shunt them, not encourage them, but try to help them assume a more chalacha abiding life.
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:24 am
So you basically are saying you won't shunt them, but you wont encourage their sexuality. So, how do you suggest helping someone assume a more halacha abiding life?
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:29 am
nathan_ngl So you basically are saying you won't shunt them, but you wont encourage their sexuality. So, how do you suggest helping someone assume a more halacha abiding life? I just said I dont know! lol. Thanks for finding the loophole brother. Im saying I have nothing against these people and I want to help them... if they want to be helped. I think that liking them although they are different is the first step. Next, I want to make it clear I will never know what its like to have different desires so I cannot know how hard it is to change or to try and fit into a religion that bans your type of sexuality. It must be very hard, so I respect that. I knwo there are doctors who deal with this kind of thing, so my advice is to head there. smile
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:49 am
LittleBakedBean nathan_ngl So you basically are saying you won't shunt them, but you wont encourage their sexuality. So, how do you suggest helping someone assume a more halacha abiding life? I just said I dont know! lol. Thanks for finding the loophole brother. Im saying I have nothing against these people and I want to help them... if they want to be helped. I think that liking them although they are different is the first step. Next, I want to make it clear I will never know what its like to have different desires so I cannot know how hard it is to change or to try and fit into a religion that bans your type of sexuality. It must be very hard, so I respect that. I knwo there are doctors who deal with this kind of thing, so my advice is to head there. smile I think, as far as homosexuality goes, you're right and wrong on some counts. They have yet to specifically prove that homosexuality is caused by genes, or just by environment. Most people believes that it's a mixture of the two. i.e. some people grow up in a normal, loving home and still turn out to be homosexual. Others are abused, let's say, and they end up that way. So, in the end, there are quack-job doctors out there who say they can "fix" it, perhaps, yes sometimes you can convince people that they're just confused. But for many, it's as much a part of their sexuality as being attracted to the opposite sex is for you. Now, as for Nathan's question... It seems that under Jewish law, the only answer is to abstain. Me, personally, I was brought up in a pretty secular and (obviously) liberal household. Two members of my family are lesbians, actually, so I've also been taught to be very accepting of it. Though both of them aren't very religious at all. sweatdrop ninja and by the way, the gay pride folks throw some awesome parties in the West Village in NYC after the parade ....
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:29 am
DarkHalcyon I think, as far as homosexuality goes, you're right and wrong on some counts. They have yet to specifically prove that homosexuality is caused by genes, or just by environment. Most people believes that it's a mixture of the two. i.e. some people grow up in a normal, loving home and still turn out to be homosexual. Others are abused, let's say, and they end up that way. either way, does it matter? just because something is caused by genes doesn't mean it's not subject to free will Quote: So, in the end, there are quack-job doctors out there who say they can "fix" it, perhaps, yes sometimes you can convince people that they're just confused. But for many, it's as much a part of their sexuality as being attracted to the opposite sex is for you. not to offend anyone, but it's my opinion that homosexuality is a mental disorder. and, as with all mental disorders, it can usually be treated. (for everyone's information, i am diagnosed with a mental disorder, so i know what i'm talking about, to some extant)i've already posted on all that, so y'all are just going to have to look back a few pages. Quote: Now, as for Nathan's question... It seems that under Jewish law, the only answer is to abstain. not just abstain; but to also have children. which means heterosex Quote: Me, personally, I was brought up in a pretty secular and (obviously) liberal household. Two members of my family are lesbians, actually, so I've also been taught to be very accepting of it. Though both of them aren't very religious at all. sweatdrop and i've been taught to be accepting of poeple who don't keep shabbos. it's really not all that different. point being, even if it isn't right, you still can't, and shouldn't try to change poeple.
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Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 9:28 am
DarkHalcyon ninja and by the way, the gay pride folks throw some awesome parties in the West Village in NYC after the parade .... like the gay parade here in israel... which, by the way, I really think is a big disgrace... They have very immodest things there...
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:01 pm
My cantor in my old temple was gay. No one cared. He was one of the greatest men I ever knew too. The thing about it is, even though he was gay he respected G-d's Covenant with us. He taught not only the choir class that I was in, but the whole temple about not only music, but wisdom from the holy book. I mean, without him I never would have been able to successfully read my Torah portion at my Bar Mitzvah. True, he won't have his own children, but the congregation is his child. He cares for it as if it was his own flesh and blood.
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 1:05 am
There is a differance between people who are just homosexuals, and people who are homosexuals, have homosexual relationships, and PARADE around about it. I mean, I'm wouldn't go parading around about the fact that I'd have hetro-sex, so what the hell? confused
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 1:15 am
You might if you werent granted equal rights *shrugs and awaits a barrage of heavy objects*
I personally dont have anything really against it, if they wanna do it I really dont care. Its not like anyone telling them not to do it does anything anyway.
Unless you like...do the christian thing with electro therapy and try to *cure* it even though all scientific studies shows it isnt a mental disorder....atleast to what we know so far about the human brain.
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 1:21 am
I also don't care about someone being homosexual, but honestly... they should stop parading about it... its disgusting sad . I mean, it's like: "Oh yay, your homosexual. So what? you want a dollar? Here, ok, Now you go back to your closet and hide in there, stop pushing it in my face please...". Sorry, I've just had encounters with gay groups around here and I swear the feel almost superiour to me confused
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 1:31 am
Well, I come from california so maybe my mind is just more open or maybe the gay thing is just more used to me. I mean, sure, some of the parades and things are a little much, but it is a culture...an off beat, really weird culture, but one none the less.
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:28 am
My aunt, a very out the lesbian, refuses to go near my synogogue without being dragged because she and her son have been treated very rudely. Do I think that not liking someone's sexual preference is a good excuse to be an a** to them? No!
"Oh! She's a lesbian! She doesn't have feelings, so we can say whatever mean things we want to her!"
God forbid there is ever an excuse to act like that.
I think that, yes, you should count two homosexuals as a "couple" and them and their kids as a "family". Because, even if it isn't the textbook definition of either, its how they define themselves, and how they hope other people see them.
Homosexuals are, above all, people. and you should define them by their character and moral fiber, not what they do in bed.
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