Welcome to Gaia! ::

Thanks for clearing your position up for me. You are right, the conversation does seem to have become a little "heated" at times. I've had my fair share of run-ins with close-mindedness, so I can understand.

I do have one question though:


Can you tell me why you believe God only declares sin through the Bible? I agree that other types of revelation are dangerous, they can be mis-used, and defining something as a sin when it is not clearly in the Bible is fraught with controversy. However, there are parts of modern life that never came up when the Bible was being written, such as cloning, stem cell research, biological warfare, nuclear issues and abortion on demand to the degree that it is prevalent today.

Are we then to say that it is not possible for anything we devise with our modern minds and technology to be a sin? Do we lack any ability to reason that, from what we know of the nature of God, something can be so contrary to it that it is indeed a sin? I agree that without irrefutable evidence in the Bible, there is an element of subjectivity, and this is a minefield that must be trod warily, but are we stuck with a 2000+ year old definition of sin in a modern world?



Actually, we may not be far apart here. Labelling something a sin is not nearly as productive in having people think about how we live our lives as some may think it is. It's judgemental and adversarial and leads to many people putting up defenses against what they think we are going to be like as Christians. Personally, I am highly unlikely to tell people that anything is a sin - but I will offer to go through the Bible with them and help them to decide if they believe their behaviour is acceptable to God.

Agreed



What would you consider to be a clear manner?



I don't think any of the prophets ever claimed to be divine. They have all been regular people, used by God. To look for any regular person to be divine is, in my opinion, heretical. Further, of the few prophets I know, I think all of them would shudder at the thought of the words they have been given by God becoming law. That does not seem to be the way that God is using prophets and prophesy in this day and time.



I used to be like that when I first became a Christian. Whether it was my approach, or the crowd that I hang with, it certainly did not work for me. I hope it does for you, God uses us each differently. I have had much more success leading gently, than hammering the word "sin" over anyone's forehead. However, please don't misread me, I am more than happy to stand up for my beliefs.

and i'm telling you, who cares if it is a sin or not? how about the insane notion that there is no God? does the notion of sin matter to an atheist? will this notion take any legal stand to stopping abortion?

i don't care what it is classified as, it is an abomination to mankind as a whole, Godly or Godless.

It seems, that you have contradicted yourself. Here you say that if God wanted it to be a sin, it would be told to us in a clear manner. Here however, you state that something is sin, though i'm sure the bible never mentions downloading music as a sin.



So, if you're one of those "regular individuals," what gave you the right to make downloading music a sin? Clearly, you extrapolated information from the bible that mentions stealing as a sin, and blanketed it to apply to EVERY kind of stealing. As such, we can say that abortion is a sin, because it is killing. Since killing is the intentional ending of a human's life, and a fetus is of human origin and as such must be human, I can say that since abortion kills a fetus, or baby, which is of human and must be human, that it's a mortal sin against the commandments. Consequently, I can also turn it around and say that abortion kills a human( a fetus, or baby, which is of human and must be human ) and as such, is a mortal sin.

As such, I can redo that process with many other examples. For instance, I can say that since Lying is a sin because it's against truth and the human being's dignity, gossip is a sin since it's against the human being's dignity who's being gossiped about.

Just so you know, Murder and the word killing are synonymous. Look:

Murder: mur·der

mur·der [múrdər]
n (plural mur·ders)
law crime of killing somebody: the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law


v (past mur·dered, past participle mur·dered, present participle mur·der·ing, 3rd person present singular mur·ders)
1. vti law kill somebody illegally: to kill another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law
2. vt kill somebody brutally: to kill somebody with great violence and brutality
3. vt destroy: to put an end to or destroy something (slang)
The fire murdered their chances of selling the house.

4. vt spoil: to spoil something such as a song or a piece of writing by performing it badly or changing it (slang)
5. vt sports defeat completely: to defeat a person or team completely, especially in a sporting contest (slang)


[Old English morþor . Ultimately from an Indo-European word that is also the ancestor of English mortal, moribund, and ambrosia. Later reinforced by Old French murdre , from prehistoric Germanic.]


-mur·der·er, n
-mur·der·ess, n
get away with murder to escape punishment for or detection of wrongdoing
be murder to be very difficult or unpleasant and involve great effort or hardship (slang)
Driving in this morning was murder.
Word Key: Synonyms
See Synonyms at kill
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Kill: kill1

kill [kil]
v (past killed, past participle killed, present participle kill·ing, 3rd person present singular kills)
1. vti cause somebody to die: to cause the death of a person or an animal
They were killed in a car accident.

2. vt ruin something: to cause something to end or be ruined
The remark killed the conversation.

3. vt hurt part of somebody’s body: to cause severe physical pain or discomfort to somebody (informal)
My feet are killing me!

4. vt overpower something subtle or less strong: to destroy or severely damage an essential, often delicate quality in something by superimposing something stronger
Her perfume killed the scent of the roses.

5. vt tire somebody out: to exhaust somebody completely (informal)
These stairs kill me every time.

6. vr overexert yourself: to push yourself too hard (informal) (often used ironically)
She was killing herself to get the job done on time.

7. vt turn something off: to disconnect the power to something electrical or mechanical so that it stops working (informal)
Kill the engine.

8. vt make time pass: to use up spare time in some activity (informal)
We had a couple of hours to kill before going to the airport.

9. vt publishing cut text: to delete a piece of text from a publication or remove a particular amount from a text (slang)
We had to kill half a column to make space for the ad.

10. vt block a plan: to prevent a proposal from going through, for example, the passing of a congressional bill
The bill was killed in the Appropriations Committee.

11. vti bowl somebody over: to have an overpowering effect on somebody, for example, causing extreme admiration, helpless laughter, or utter amazement (informal)
dressed to kill

12. vt drink all of something: to finish off a bottle of something, usually an alcoholic beverage (slang)
13. vt U.K. soccer control the ball: to bring a fast-moving ball under instant control
14. vt football make a ball dead: in football, to stop the ball so that it is no longer in play (informal)
15. vt sports hit a ball hard: to hit a ball very hard
16. vt racket games make a ball unreturnable: in racket games, to hit the ball so hard, with such skill, or in such a direction that your opponent has no chance of returning it


n
1. killing: the moment or an act of killing something, especially prey or game, or the bull at the end of a bullfight
2. hunting prey: the prey killed by an animal or human being
3. military destruction of enemy vehicle: the destroying of an enemy vehicle such as a plane, ship, or tank (slang)


[13th century. From assumed Old English cyllan , from a prehistoric Germanic word that is also the ancestor of English quell.]

kill yourself (laughing) to laugh extremely heartily (informal)
Word Key: Synonyms
kill, murder, assassinate, execute, put to death, slaughter, slay, put to sleep,
CORE MEANING: to deprive of life
kill a general word used to talk about causing the death of a person or animal; murder to take the life of another person in an intentional and often premeditated way that constitutes a serious criminal act; assassinate to murder a public figure by means of a sudden surprise attack, often for political or religious reasons; execute to take somebody’s life in accordance with a legal death sentence. It is also used to refer to the instant or summary killing of an enemy, often for political or military reasons; put to death to deliberately take somebody’s life, especially in accordance with a legal death sentence; slaughter to kill animals for food, especially animals that have been bred on a farm. It can also be used to refer to brutal and violent killing, usually on a large scale; slay a formal or literary word used to refer to killing a person or animal in an intentional and violent way; put to sleep a euphemism used to talk about the humane killing of sick or injured animals, especially when done by a vet
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Do believe I see them listed as synonyms for each other. However, just to be sure, here's the thesaurus listings:

Murder: murder (n)

homicide, manslaughter, assassination, killing, slaying, unlawful death, contract killing, slaughter, massacre, wasting
murder (v)

kill, slay (formal or literary), assassinate, execute, put to death, slaughter, massacre, bump off (slang), waste (slang), snuff (informal), do (slang)
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Kill:kill (v)

slay (formal or literary), murder, slaughter, execute, destroy, exterminate, eradicate, put down, put to sleep, assassinate, massacre, dispatch, bump off (slang)
antonym: revive
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Believe I still see them both in there for each other.

And about the ceremonial killings, and the sentence for murder. The sentence for murder in the courts is death or a life sentence, but that doesn't make it right for us to give the death sentence at all. For you to say that Death is the proper sentence, well, you would have to prove why it's the only proper sentence, or even why it's a proper sentence at all. Of course, my simple reply would be, even though he choose to kill/murder someone, what gives us, or you, or the courts, the right to decide he should die, and even though you're not saying explicitly, that he doesn't deserve life? As for the ceremonial killings, you would have to tell me exactly which ones, but I assume you refer to the part in the bible about Moses ordering all the sinners killed, but if you look closer, God never told him to do that. Moses made a decision, and you also should remember that Moses never saw the promised land either. I should probaly reference this verse, since it's integral to the subject:

John 8:3-11 - The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."

And it still applies today, you want to put someone to death, let the first among us without sin pull the switch.


Source: Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Look, All murder is killing. And as such, since abortion is the murdering of a human( don't even bring in illegal, it's illegal to murder and last time i checked, murder of a human is illegal. how is it a human? As i stated, it is of human origin, so it must be human ) in fetus form, it's still human even though it's at a different stage of development then us, then i can use kill, since all murder is killing. However, I do agree that not all killing is murder. In the bible, the commandments use murder as a representative term for killing. All killing is wrong, not just murder. And as for your comment about John 8:3 - 11, i have no reason to say you are lying, however when you say something is widely agreed there should many sources for such a statement, of which I have searched and found none from reliable sources. I ask now that, since this is common knowledge, direct me to a link that proves your point, or a book reference. Numbers on the other hand, did you know it's a consensus of the Israelites? And it doesn't help your points at all. So, below is numbers 35:1-25:

Numbers 35:1 - 25


[1] The LORD said to Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho,
[2] "Command the people of Israel, that they give to the Levites, from the inheritance of their possession, cities to dwell in; and you shall give to the Levites pasture lands round about the cities.
[3] The cities shall be theirs to dwell in, and their pasture lands shall be for their cattle and for their livestock and for all their beasts.
[4] The pasture lands of the cities, which you shall give to the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city outward a thousand cubits all round.
[5] And you shall measure, outside the city, for the east side two thousand cubits, and for the south side two thousand cubits, and for the west side two thousand cubits, and for the north side two thousand cubits, the city being in the middle; this shall belong to them as pasture land for their cities.
[6] The cities which you give to the Levites shall be the six cities of refuge, where you shall permit the manslayer to flee, and in addition to them you shall give forty-two cities.
[7] All the cities which you give to the Levites shall be forty-eight, with their pasture lands.
[8] And as for the cities which you shall give from the possession of the people of Israel, from the larger tribes you shall take many, and from the smaller tribes you shall take few; each, in proportion to the inheritance which it inherits, shall give of its cities to the Levites."
[9] And the LORD said to Moses,
[10] "Say to the people of Israel, When you cross the Jordan into the land of Canaan,
[11] then you shall select cities to be cities of refuge for you, that the manslayer who kills any person without intent may flee there.
[12] The cities shall be for you a refuge from the avenger, that the manslayer may not die until he stands before the congregation for judgment.
[13] And the cities which you give shall be your six cities of refuge.
[14] You shall give three cities beyond the Jordan, and three cities in the land of Canaan, to be cities of refuge.
[15] These six cities shall be for refuge for the people of Israel, and for the stranger and for the sojourner among them, that any one who kills any person without intent may flee there.
[16] "But if he struck him down with an instrument of iron, so that he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.
[17] And if he struck him down with a stone in the hand, by which a man may die, and he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.
[18] Or if he struck him down with a weapon of wood in the hand, by which a man may die, and he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.
[19] The avenger of blood shall himself put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death.
[20] And if he stabbed him from hatred, or hurled at him, lying in wait, so that he died,
[21] or in enmity struck him down with his hand, so that he died, then he who struck the blow shall be put to death; he is a murderer; the avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death, when he meets him.
[22] "But if he stabbed him suddenly without enmity, or hurled anything on him without lying in wait,
[23] or used a stone, by which a man may die, and without seeing him cast it upon him, so that he died, though he was not his enemy, and did not seek his harm;
[24] then the congregation shall judge between the manslayer and the avenger of blood, in accordance with these ordinances;
[25] and the congregation shall rescue the manslayer from the hand of the avenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to his city of refuge, to which he had fled, and he shall live in it until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil.

I'll explain it now. The first few sentences are the tail-end of the designs for cities, talking about how to proportion the grazing land, and how many people from each tribe should come. Then we start into the constitution of the Israelites, their system of law. So, I quote the aforementioned verse again, it says they asked Jesus if they should kill the woman to test him. Let me ask you something, if she was supposed to be put to death by the old laws, why would they need to test him? Wouldn't he know that the old laws say to put to death an adulterer and the man she slept with? They test him because they know that your not supposed to. You have to realize that the New Testament and Old Testament in no way contradict themselves, and that they were also written at two very different times in history, and as such, they thought that certain things were okay back then.