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Has your summer started?
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WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:48 pm


It's summer, and I have nothing to do until those copies of my marriage license get here (so I can go forward with the whole "changing my last name" thing). So I thought I would address all the little Straw Men that were set up and knocked down in the Pro-Life America page as posted (though not quoted) by Mouse of Water in This Thread.

Did I mention I was bored?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:56 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
The issue is who decides, the woman or the state. It’s about freedom of choice.


The abortion lobby has always realized that abortion itself is indefensible. This has forced them to argue that whether abortion is the deliberate killing of a living human being or not, is unrelated to the question of whether it should be legal. In short, they have to divert attention toward the philosophical concepts of “choice” and “who decides” because they can’t afford for the public to look at what’s being chosen and decided.

To imply that the issue is not abortion, but choice, is to say that what’s being chosen is irrelevant. That is clearly illogical given that all choices are not equal. Choosing whether to buy a new car is vastly different than choosing whether to produce child pornography, and the morality of those choices is not affected by the eventual decision. However, the pro-choice position is that abortion becomes acceptable simply by the act of choosing to do it.

Defenders of slavery also used this same strategy. During the 1858 Abraham Lincoln- Stephen Douglas debates, Douglas said he did not support outlawing slavery, saying, “I am now speaking of rights under the Constitution, and not of moral or religious rights. I do not discuss the morals of the people favoring slavery, but let them settle that matter for themselves. I hold that the people who favor slavery are civilized, that they bear consciences, and that they are accountable to God and their posterity and not to us. It is for them to decide therefore the moral and religious right of the slavery question for themselves within their own limits.”

Just substitute the word abortion every place the word slavery appears, and this statement perfectly defines the pro-choice position in America today. Lincoln’s response to Douglas’ pro-choice position on slavery was, “He cannot say that he would as soon see a wrong voted up as voted down. When Judge Douglas says whoever, or whatever community, wants slaves, they have a right to them, he is perfectly logical if there is nothing wrong in the institution; but if you admit that it is wrong, he cannot logically say that anybody has a right to do a wrong.”

Lincoln recognized that there is nothing intrinsically noble about the concept of choice, and that there are choices which a society cannot allow the individual to make.

The fact is, before one can rightly claim that the issue is “choice” or “who decides,” he or she must first examine what’s being chosen. If it’s what color shoes to wear, that’s one thing; if it’s whether to kill another human being, that’s another. Except in self-defense, the decision about whether one human being can kill another one cannot be left up to the individual who wants to do the killing.

Besides, this “who decides, the woman or the state” rhetoric is idiotic on its face. Laws against abortion would not let the state decide who gets abortions any more than laws against rape let the state decide who gets raped. Instead, they establish that certain behaviors are so unacceptable they must be illegal.

Finally, as used by abortion advocates, the term “pro-choice” is both inaccurate and dishonest. In an abortion, at least three people are directly impacted: the mother, the father, and the child. The pro-choice argument is that only one is entitled to a choice. Additionally, it has never been a part of their agenda to protect any choice other than abortion. They don’t lobby for women to have the legal right to be prostitutes or use crack cocaine. Yet these laws, and thousands of others, deny women “the right to choose” just as much as laws preventing abortion would.

The right to choose to keep a pregnancy and raise the child, to keep a pregnancy and give the child up for (open or closed) adoption, or to abort a pregnancy. Those are the choices that Pro-Choicers are concerned about when it comes to the abortion debate.

By attacking the whole (it's a choice/it's not a choice) thing, the original author of this is forgetting that women have the right to control their own bodies, and so to deny use of their bodies to anyone, even if that denial results in their death.

And, by the way, many Pro-Choicers (and Pro-Lifers, for that matter) believe that prostitution and (some or all) drugs should be legal. That is a different bit of unconstitutional and unethical dreck.

By comparing abortion to slavery, which just about everyone holds as unethical, the original author was hoping to say, "look this is bad, and so is abortion". But slavery is about owning another human, and controlling their life. Abortion (from the Pro-Choice viewpoint) is about a pregnant woman retaining her right to control her own body.

WatersMoon110
Crew


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:05 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
If a baby is not a white, healthy, newborn it stands little chance of being adopted.


The National Counsel for Adoption says that while there is indeed a long waiting list for healthy white babies, there are also parents on waiting lists for minority and physically challenged babies. This is confirmed by Christian Homes and Special Kids, a non-profit organization founded to support families with special-needs children. At any given time, they have a database of several hundred families waiting to adopt children with even the most severe physical challenges, including children who are terminal and those who are born addicted to drugs. The truth is, the chances of a newborn not being adopted are minuscule regardless of circumstances.

Today, the problem with adoption is not babies, but older children, and since they are already born that problem has nothing to do with abortion. The abortion lobby counters that if newborns are not available, families would be more likely to adopt these older children. In other words, the pro-choice solution is to force people to take the children society wants them to adopt, by brutally slaughtering the children they want to adopt.

If the abortion lobby wants us to believe that they are only killing babies no one wants, here is a suggestion that will settle the whole abortion debate once and for all. Let’s create a national computer database of people who want to adopt a baby. Any pregnant woman who doesn’t want her baby would have access to this database. If there is someone in the database who wants to adopt her baby, she could not legally have an abortion. But if no one is willing to take her baby, she could legally have the child killed by abortion.

Of course, the abortion industry is never going to take this deal because they know it would immediately bankrupt every one of their death camps. They realize that there is no such thing as an unwanted baby and that every single child they butcher is wanted by someone. Their “every child a wanted child” rhetoric, and this “disease of unwantedness,” are simply scams they conjured up to justify abortion and create a market for their product.

Mouse of Water
Keep in mind I'm not racist, it's just what it says

So, because there are people who are willing to adopt special needs or older children, that makes it okay that most people will only adopt healthy, white (usually male) newborns?

I really do like the idea of some sort of National Potential Adoptive Parents database though. I know that many Open Adoption Agencies have such a database, but I like the idea of making it country-wide. This would probably even have some effect on lowering the abortion rate, like the original author wants. And Open Adoptions happen a lot faster, for the pregnant woman (she meets the couple while pregnant and hands over the baby after birth - and they pay all her bills).

But to say that an abortion cannot happen just because someone might be willing to adopt the born child is wrong, from my view point. At least until fetal transplant surgery is viable. Since the pregnant woman would still have to carry the unborn human, allowing its violation of her body (from her view point) until it is born. When the couple can adopt the unborn human immediately, I can more understand pushing (fetal) adoption instead of abortion.
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:53 pm


But... How is a woman's bodily integrity worth more than the entire lifetime of the fetus? The fetus is not enslaving the woman, nor hurting her badly, nor a significant danger to her health, and in most cases is not a danger to her career/future.

How is nine months, four or five considering actually noticable pregnancy, worth more than that fetus' entire life?

divineseraph


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:56 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
It’s the woman’s body. It’s her decision.


First, it is nonsense to suggest that the law never tells people what they can or cannot do with their bodies. In fact, there are many things which people are not legally allowed to do with their bodies. To name just a few, they cannot sell them for sex, or sell their organs to people who need transplants, or put certain drugs into their bodies.

Second, statements like this ignore the fact that, by any rational standard, the unborn child is a separate individual from its mother.

In fact, if an unborn child had the ability to commit a crime, it has everything necessary for a forensic expert to identify it in court. Long before the point at which most abortions are done, the unborn child has its own DNA code, its own fingerprints, and its own blood type – none of which match the mother.

The individuality of the unborn was evident in 1999 when a Tennessee surgeon had just completed an operation on an unborn baby and was about to close the incision in the mom’s abdomen. Before he could do so, the child punched his arm through the incision and grasped the doctor’s finger. A photo of this event ended up on magazine covers and television sets around the world. The question is, who grabbed the doctor’s finger?

Fingerprints start developing around week 8, and aren't fully formed until week 11. So not all unborn humans who are aborted had fingerprints (the majority of abortions happen before week 11).

Drug use and organ trafficking are illegal on a federal level using the Interstate Commerce Clause. The Constitutionality of this is in question.

The unborn human grasped the doctor's hand through a random movement combined with an instinctual reflex. It proves no more about "individuality" than one's leg moving when force is applied properly to the knee.

Most importantly, however, is that the original author does not mention the location of the unborn human: inside of the woman. It doesn't matter if the unborn human is a separate individual (which it is), because it is a separate individual living off and inside of the woman. Thus, because the woman has the right to deny use of her body to any individual, she has the right to demand its removal.
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:14 pm


divineseraph
But... How is a woman's bodily integrity worth more than the entire lifetime of the fetus? The fetus is not enslaving the woman, nor hurting her badly, nor a significant danger to her health, and in most cases is not a danger to her career/future.

How is nine months, four or five considering actually noticable pregnancy, worth more than that fetus' entire life?

It doesn't matter if the unborn human is a danger to her or not. To take away one's control of one's own body, whatever the justification, is unethical. Even for the best of reasons, it is wrong to take away the woman's right to control her body, even for a short period of time.

The unborn human might not be enslaving the woman. But by forcing the woman to remain pregnant, the government would be enslaving (that is, taking control over her body) her, however briefly.

As to your main point, why is bodily integrity more important than life? I am not entirely sure how to answer it. The legality of the matter is that it has been ruled that one's right to deny use of their body trumps the right of another to live using one's body against one's will. As for my own personal opinion on the matter...

...

Well, I would state that one's body is one's only true possession. It is the only thing that one really has for the entire course of one's life. If I cannot be said to be in control of my own body, then I have nothing, and really I am nothing. I see taking control of another's body, for what ever reason, without their permission as a complete and utter violation. Whatever the justification, overruling someone's control of their very self is unethical and horrible. And, in every circumstance that it is allowed to happen in, I find it such.

WatersMoon110
Crew


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:33 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
The government has no right to interfere in people’s personal choices.

To say that government should let people make all of their own choices is neither practical nor desirable. We cannot let people make their own choices to rape, rob or drive drunk. We cannot let them make the choices to embezzle, defraud, write hot checks, drive their cars over the speed limit, slander other people, etc. By definition, the goal of every law is to deny someone the legal ability to choose a particular activity, and many prohibited choices could even be considered “personal.” For example, it is illegal to have sexual relations with a sibling, or a child, or an animal, or a dead body.

As for abortion, it is not the government’s role to protect one individual’s choice to kill his fellow human beings. Given the biological fact that the unborn are living human beings, the question is not whether the government has the right to prohibit abortion, but whether it has the right not to.

Actually, it is legal in West Virginia to have sex with any animal that weighs over 30 pounds.

And the purpose of making things illegal is to keep other citizens from being harmed. Things are made illegal because the said action poses a real threat to those outside the body of the person committing the action. Raping harms another, robbery harms the person (this includes corporations) that has their goods/money stolen at weapon-point, drunk driving poses a very serious risk to those around the impaired driver. A child, animal, or dead body cannot give consent to sexual activity which would seriously injure a child or small animal.

There are plenty of circumstances in which one human has the right to harm or kill another human. In war, self defense, or defense of others, it is valid to kill. And it is acceptable to kill by denying use of one's body (or, in most areas, by denying one's help). To imply that it is always "wrong" and should always be illegal to kill another human being is to overlook the many circumstances in which it is necessary and unavoidable.
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:44 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
Abortion is about empowering women.


If you want to see the weakest and most subservient women in America, just look at the faces of those entering an abortion clinic. What you will see is sadness, desperation, fear, and resignation. What you will not see is women who feel empowered or in control.

These faces make it clear that, like suicide, abortion is a choice made by tragic people who have been convinced they have no choice. Better than anyone else, women who submit to abortion understand why no woman was ever admired for having an abortion, and why no woman ever bragged about her abortion, and why no woman ever climbed off an abortionist’s table with a higher opinion of herself than she had when she climbed onto it.

This nonsense that women must have the right to kill their children in order to be equal to men is an invention of the abortion industry. With almost no exceptions, pioneers of the women’s movement like Susan B. Anthony, Mattie Brinkerhoff, Sarah Norton, Emma Goldman, and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were outspoken opponents of legal abortion. Alice Paul, who wrote the original Equal Rights Amendment, called abortion the ultimate exploitation of women. Even suffragist newspapers such as Woodhull’s and Claflin’s Weekly, had editorial policies which openly attacked both abortion and abortionists.

These early feminists saw that abortion is patronizing and paternalistic and that a woman’s willingness to submit to it doesn’t free her, it devalues her. They understood that legalized abortion is nothing more than a safety net for sexually predatory and sexually irresponsible men. Today, after over 30 years of legalized abortion, that view has been so thoroughly proven true that some abortion advocates no longer even bother to deny it. In fact, some say it should be celebrated.

On May 11, 1990, the PBS radio program Spectrum featured the staunchly pro-choice Ann Taylor-Flemming saying, “I came of age with the women’s movement. It has given license to my ambitions and dreams, and filled me with the fervor for equality that permeates all that I do. But this time, I want to turn the tables a bit. Take an issue that always seems like a women’s issue and pitch it directly towards the men out there. And that issue is abortion... it’s time now to invite the men of America back in, to ask them to raise their voices for choice... I dare say that many of them have impregnated women along the way, and then let off the hook in a big, big way – emotionally, economically and every other way – when the women went ahead and had abortions... the sense of relief for themselves was mixed with sympathy for and gratitude towards those women whose ultimate responsibility it was to relieve them of responsibility by having abortions... it would sure be nice to hear from all those men out there whose lives have been changed, bettered, and substantially eased because they were not forced into unwanted fatherhood.”

It is hard to imagine that even the most bigoted male chauvinist would suggest that women have a responsibility to let men who impregnate them “off the hook” by submitting to abortion. Yet here is that very argument being espoused by someone who claims to be an advocate for women.

Today, abortion apologists continue to push the idea that having a clean place to kill their babies is the cornerstone of women’s equality. That lie is a self-serving perversion of the basic values of legitimate feminism. As pro-life feminist Melissa Simmons-Tulin once said, “Women will never climb to equality over the dead bodies of their children.”

First off, there were plenty of early feminists that were for legal abortion. Susan B. Anthony and her "posse" were the Pro-Life side of the split (interesting fact, Susan B Anthony's little news letter was paid for by slave owners, who thought that giving women the right to vote would mean that slavery would be kept legal as there would be more people to vote to keep it that way).

Sexually abusive men would (and most likely did) turn to illegal abortions just as readily as they now turn to legal abortions where they can. Making abortion illegal so that abused, pregnant girls and women would be noticed in hopes of catching a sexual predator is cold and illogical.

And there is not a "PBS Radio Station" as the Radio Stations supported by the Public Broadcasting Service is known as NPR or National Public Radio.

I don't think that women need to have abortions in order to be "equal" to men. But I do think that taking away a pregnant woman's right to control her body makes her unequal to every non-pregnant person out there. I really feel that the reason that (Neo-)Feminists have embraced the Pro-Choice mentality is because they also see this.

WatersMoon110
Crew


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:05 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
What about a woman who can’t afford another child or isn’t ready to be a mom?


To begin with, when a woman is pregnant whether she is ready or not, she already is a mom. At that point, her only “choice” is to be the mother of a living baby or a dead one.

Second, poverty is not a justification for killing your children. No one would excuse a father for killing his five-year-old daughter because he could no longer afford her.

Additionally, the abortion industry’s own statistics prove that almost every abortion it sells has nothing to do with poverty, but is instead sold to a woman who simply doesn’t want to be pregnant.

An interesting observation about the relationship between poverty and abortion, is that poor women are rarely the ones agitating for abortion. Instead, it always seems to be rich, white, elitist gadflies and liberal social engineers who become so distressed about poor women having access to abortion.

Personally, I disagree with the idea that one only has to become pregnant to be a "mother". I feel that one must be raising or must have raised a child or children in order to really be a "mother". I would state that a woman who gave birth to a child and then gave it up for adoption and has no other children she is raising is not a mother. While a woman who has never been pregnant or given birth but has adopted children and is raising them is a mother.

If the father's five year old daughter was living either inside or off of his body, he would be allowed to kill her (if he had no other way to remove her from his body).

As a poor woman who has and does advocate for legal abortion, I would say that the original author is wrong. Just because they do not want to believe that poor women also want to end their pregnancies doesn't mean that only rich, white women want or advocate for legal abortions.

In fact:
Guttmacher Institute
The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women).

And:
Guttmacher Institute
Overall unintended pregnancy rates have stagnated over the past decade, yet unintended pregnancy increased by 29% among poor women while decreasing 20% among higher-income women.

So it is poor woman looking for (and wanting) abortions. Since they get pregnant more often (probably due to less education on and access to other birth control methods), and they get abortions more often, doesn't it make sense that they would also have more desire to see abortion be kept legal and safe?

Not to mention:
Guttmacher Institute
On average, women give four reasons for choosing abortion. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

Around 75% of women looking to get abortions state that they cannot afford a(nother) child. I would say that is a lot of women who get abortions because of monetary factors.
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:20 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
Why should a woman who is acting responsibly be forced into motherhood just because her birth control failed?


The idea that when someone is “acting responsibly” they should be immune from consequences is nonsense. Even when people are driving their cars responsibly, they can still get into accidents and they are still responsible for the damage they do. In the case of sexual activity, acting responsibly goes beyond just taking steps to avoid pregnancy. It is also accepting – before having sex – that a child may be conceived. Abortion is about letting people avoid this part of their responsibility.

Also, if women should not be forced to take on the responsibilities of having a child simply because their birth control failed, do we extend this same option to men? If a man was “acting responsibly” by using a condom and his partner was “acting responsibly” by using birth control, if a pregnancy results and he offers to pay for an abortion, should we say that he has fulfilled his legal obligations? This is especially relevant given that if she decides to abort he is legally powerless to stop her, but if she doesn’t abort he can be forced to pay for a child whose intentional execution he could not legally prevent. If abortion is about equal rights – as the pro-choice gang claims – how can “forced fatherhood” be right if “forced motherhood” is wrong?

For starters, when one gets into a car accident, one isn't forced to "live with the consequences" by not being allowed to get surgery to fix any injuries sustained.

I believe that the definition of "responsible" being used by the original author is:
Quote:
Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior.

I fail to see where in the (fourth or any other) definition of responsible it says "being willing to keep any pregnancy resulting from sexual activity".

While it can be responsible to raise children, that doesn't make it irresponsible to get an abortion. It is up to the individual to make their own decision (and to answer for their choice). In some situations, it could even be said to be more responsible to abort than to keep a pregnancy (for instance, if the woman had no steady income, had been drinking heavily, and did not know who the father was - I would say it most likely would more responsible for her to choose to abort). But really, what is "responsible" behavior depends on the individual and the situation, and unless you know every detail about both, you really cannot judge what is or is not the most responsible course of action.

I agree that men should be able to legally opt out of being fathers just as women are able to opt out of being mothers (through abortion). I feel that men should have the option to sign a document giving up all legal rights and responsibilities to an unborn human during the same time frame that women have the right to electively abort (or as soon as he learns of the child, like when the woman sues him for back child support). Any disputes of this (or of an abortion, for that matter) should be taken to court.

WatersMoon110
Crew


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:30 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
No one can prove when life begins. It is up to the woman to decide.


Trying to rationalize abortion using this argument is utter nonsense. If we don’t know when life begins, then we can’t say it has begun at birth, or at age five, or at 50. By this logic, the law could never convict someone for murdering a 30-year-old woman because there is no way to prove that she was alive.

The fact is, no scientific, biological, or medical textbook says that life begins at any point other than conception. Further, simple deductive reasoning proves that life begins at conception because that is the only time it can begin. Any other point is strictly arbitrary.

However, even if it were true that no one can prove when life begins, that is not a justification for legalized abortion.

The pro-life position is that the unborn should be left alone. Obviously, a person does not have to prove anything about the unborn in order to justify taking that view. On the other hand, the pro-choice position is that it should be legal to butcher the unborn by the millions because no one can prove that they are living human beings. To appreciate just how irrational this is, imagine that the judge and jury in a capital murder case sentenced a man to death because no one could prove that he was not guilty. The public would be justifiably enraged. They understand that the state is the one taking action and that, therefore, the burden of proof belongs to them. The prosecution is required to prove that the man is guilty in order to convict him, but the defense has no obligation to prove anything in order to justify leaving him alone.

In other words, our judicial system is designed to err on the side of life. We would rather let a thousand murderers go free, than execute even one innocent person.

The question is why we don’t apply this standard to the unborn. Why aren’t we saying to the pro-choice mob, “Before we’ll let you kill the unborn, you have to prove that they are not living human beings.” After all, to say that no one knows when life begins is, at the very least, an acknowledgement that it might begin at conception. Shouldn’t we leave the unborn alone until we find out for sure? Saying we can execute the unborn because no one can prove when life begins, is no different than saying we can execute an accused murderer because no one can prove he’s innocent.

Amazingly, when cornered on this, some abortion apologists will contend that abortion should be allowed even if we accept that the unborn are living human beings. The question then becomes, if the humanity of the unborn is irrelevant when deciding whether they can be killed, why is the humanity of a five-year-old relevant when making the same decision?

As for this brainless contention that women must be allowed to decide when the lives of their children have begun, imagine two children who are conceived at the same moment. Three months later, one mother talks about her baby, knows its sex, has named it, and has even seen it on an ultrasound screen. The other mother believes that the life of her child hasn’t begun yet and decides to have it killed by abortion. The pro-choice mentality is that both mothers are right, despite the fact it is physically impossible for that to be true.

Also, if women are to be the ones who decide when life begins, why should they lose that right by giving birth? If a woman who sincerely believes that life doesn’t begin until speech is possible, kills her three-month-old daughter, should she be charged with murder? What makes her belief that life begins at speech less valid than another woman’s belief that life begins in the second trimester, or at birth, or at any other arbitrarily chosen point? And what gives society the right to charge this woman with murder, while saying that women are the ones who decide when life begins?

I don't think that Straw Man is even a real argument. I think it's like two half arguments randomly thrown together (perhaps the original author was drunk or tired).

Anyway, this person really has no idea what "life" is. Life doesn't begin at conceptions. The two sex cells that form the fertilized ovum are already alive. Life begins long before conception (and human life could be said to be a long unbroken chain back to the first Homo Sapiens). And there is no question that the unborn human is human (as it carries human DNA).

But, unlike a three month old child (what is it with this original poster and killing daughters? - I think they have deep, serious issues with their own daughter), an unborn human is hooked up to the body of the pregnant woman. And she has the right to have it removed. Anyone can take care of a born child. The pregnant woman cannot hand her unborn human over to anyone else to carry.
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:38 pm


Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
The Bible does not condemn abortion and Jesus never spoke out against it.


To suggest that the Bible is silent on abortion is a lie. In both the Old and New Testaments, the language used to describe born and unborn people is the same. For example, in Luke 1:41, the unborn John the Baptist is called a “brephos” which means “babe” or “baby” in Greek. Then, in the very next chapter, the born Jesus is also called a “brephos.” We are also told that Elizabeth’s baby leapt in her womb upon being in the presence of Mary. Should we conclude that this makes no statement about the unborn? If so, and if the Bible is silent on abortion, then it is logical to also conclude that Scripture is indifferent about whether these women would have aborted Jesus and John the Baptist. After all, by pro-choice reasoning, at this point they didn’t even exist. (A few Scriptural references to the unborn include: Genesis 25:22-24; Job 31:15; Psalm 22:9-10; Psalm 139:13-16; Jeremiah 1:5; Hosea 12:2-3; Luke 1:15; Luke 1:41; and Exodus 21:22-24.)

Moreover, not every word Jesus uttered is recorded in Scripture so there is no way to know whether He ever addressed abortion or not. We should also remember that there is no record of Jesus ever speaking out against slavery – a point which apologists for slavery routinely made. In fact, most of our laws relate to behaviors which neither Jesus nor the Bible specifically addressed.

First off, the Bible condones slavery in multiple places. So slave owners and other racist morons didn't need to point to the lack of Jesus speaking out against slavery - they just mentioned all of the Biblical quotes stating that slavery was perfectly okay...

Secondly, just because the word used for unborn human is the same as the word for born baby doesn't mean that the Bible is against abortion. In fact:
Exodus 21:22-25
And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


Thus showing that the loss of an unborn human is valued differently in the Bible than the loss or harm of a born woman (since the miscarriage just results in a fine, but injury to the woman calls for a "life for a life").

There are plenty of religious reasons to be against (or for) legal abortion. But the Bible does not say anything that is obviously against abortion.

WatersMoon110
Crew


WatersMoon110
Crew

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:47 pm


Quote:
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
Have you pro-lifers ever thought about the possibility that you may be wrong?


Any rational human being considers that possibility regarding any position they take. However, this question is better suited for our opponents. If the pro-life movement is wrong, then we are guilty of trying to deny women a constitutional right. But if the pro-choice side is wrong, then they are directly responsible for the mass murder of innocent children. So the question is, would it be better to be pro-life and wrong or pro-choice and wrong?

I didn't see this at Pro-Life America, so I don't know who to attribute the quote to.

This is just Pascal's Wager applied to abortion. And, frankly, this assumes that denying rights to women is better than allowing unborn humans to die. I greatly disagree. I feel that both possibilities of wronging others are equally bad.
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:59 pm


WatersMoon110
Actually, it is legal in West Virginia to have sex with any animal that weighs over 30 pounds.


This does not surprise me in the slightest.

WatersMoon110
Most importantly, however, is that the original author does not mention the location of the unborn human: inside of the woman. It doesn't matter if the unborn human is a separate individual (which it is), because it is a separate individual living off and inside of the woman. Thus, because the woman has the right to deny use of her body to any individual, she has the right to demand its removal.


Says who? Not the Constitution...

I'm not even saying a woman shouldn't have that right, but consider this:

Why is forced organ donation illegal? Because you're permanently damaging someone's body. Pregnancy can do that, but it's not a guarantee. (Why is forced blood donation illegal? I don't think it should be...) The need for a donated organ is a pathological condition, which very few people will experience. Everyone has to be carried to term in someone's uterus. You can donate your organs after you die, thus those who need a new organ don't necessarily have to "leech" off someone's body. Again, everyone needs a uterus to be born, and a healthy one at that.

Basically, there's no denying someone a place to gestate without killing them. If I don't donate a kidney, a person in need of a donor will get one elsewhere, or stay on dialysis. (Hearts, you're pretty ********, but you can't donate your heart premortem.) Plus:

Quote:
It doesn't matter if the unborn human is a danger to her or not. To take away one's control of one's own body, whatever the justification, is unethical


No one gets pregnant without either their consent or being raped, which is illegally taking control of someone's body anyways.

La Veuve Zin

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WatersMoon110
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:00 pm


I can, however, prove with one post that the original author of these "answers" is completely insane:
Pro-Life America
The 'ProChoice' Straw Man
Let’s set aside our differences and look for common ground. We should look for ways to end the need for abortion.


From the day this battle began, the abortion lobby has understood two realities. First, they do not have to convince the public that their position is morally superior to ours, only that it is morally defensible. Second, that goal is much easier to accomplish when it is perceived that abortions are done out of need rather than out of want. Every time we take the “common ground” bait, we help them sell both of those lies to the American people.

When we join them to look for ways to reduce the need for abortion, by definition we are agreeing there is sometimes a need for abortion. After all, people don’t go looking for ways to reduce the need for something unless they believe that such a need exists.

The truth is, even studies conducted by hardcore abortion advocates prove that almost every abortion performed in America is for non-medical reasons and involves a healthy baby who was not conceived by rape or incest, and a healthy woman whose pregnancy does not threaten either her life or health. In short, abortions are done for want, not need.

Whenever we do or say anything that suggests otherwise, we support the abortion lobby’s position. The fact is, for these baby killers to say that we should help them reduce the need for abortion, is like some pimp telling the vice squad that they should help him reduce the need for prostitution.

The other problem is, we cannot look for common ground with these people without giving the impression that even we believe their position has some moral validity. It is no different than if the Jewish people would have agreed to look for common ground with the Nazis while the ovens at Auschwitz were burning day and night. To do so would have simply given credibility to the Nazi position.

When people are threatening to do evil, discussions with them may be reasonable. But once they have begun doing that evil, there is nothing more to talk about. At that point, the only goal is to stop them. Remember, prior to World War II we had intense discussions with the Japanese trying to avert the war. But at Pearl Harbor, the talking ended.

Another thing about “common ground” is that it always requires an acceptance of the fundamental premise of the abortion lobby. In all such discussions, the opening statement is something like, “Everyone has agreed to set aside any discussion about whether abortion should be legal or not and simply look for areas of common ground and for ways to reduce the need for abortions.”

If the real goal is common ground, it would be equally legitimate to say, “Everyone has agreed that abortion should be made illegal, so our goal today is to look for ways to reduce the incidence of illegal abortions once that happens.” Of course, that is never the basis upon which we look for this elusive common ground because the abortion lobby would never agree to discuss their position on their opponent’s terms. We seem to be the only ones who fall for that trick.

The fact is, pro-lifers need to stop being so easily manipulated. Our job is not to sit around the campfire and sing Kumbayah with people who torture and slaughter helpless babies for money. Our job is to stop them.

Really? Does anyone agree with this? Can you take anything this obviously unbalanced person says seriously?

Saying that methods to reduce abortion don't matter, because abortion needs to be illegal (no matter what, apparently) sounds pretty damn crazy to me. They also have another post, about contraception (and how, I guess, it somehow doesn't help keep abortion rates down AND is an abortive also) which I really don't feel the need to post here.

Now I feel sort of bad, for attacking the arguments of a crazy person...
Reply
Pro-Life/Pro-Choice Discussion

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