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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:40 pm
It was the Headline of our paper yesterday "Unbaptized Babies Go to Heaven." In my religion we teach that anyway, but this is pretty important to Catholics, I would think. Because I just can't imagine how sad it would be to picture a family losing their newborn baby and having to deal with that grief... and then to run around trying to get a priest to hurry and baptize your infant so they don't go to "Limbo?" That seems so tragic to me! If you haven't read yet, here's a story from one of the news sites. Quote: [ size=24]Catholic Church sees 'hope' for unbaptized babies20/04/2007 4:16:12 PM The Roman Catholic Church has revised its teaching on one of the major concepts of limbo, as Pope Benedict approved a church report Friday that said there are "grounds for hope" that unbaptized babies can go to heaven. The limbo of children is traditionally defined as the state of permanent exclusion from heaven for babies who die without being freed from original sin through baptism, although there is no formal Catholic doctrine. The Pope, a respected theologian before his election as pontiff, approved the findings of the International Theological Commission that limbo reflected "unduly restrictive view of salvation." The commission's long-awaited 41-page document was released on Origins, the documentary service of Catholic News Service, the news agency of the American Bishop's Conference. "We can say we have many reasons to hope that there is salvation for these babies," the Rev. Luis Ladaria, a Jesuit who is the commission's secretary general, told the Associated Press. Baptism still necessary, says commission Theologians have long taught that children in limbo enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness but without being in communion with God. Pope Benedict and his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, had urged further study on limbo, in part because of "the pressing pastoral needs" sparked by the increase in abortion and the growing number of children who die without being baptized, the report said. In the document, the commission said there were "serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and brought into eternal happiness." It stressed, however, that "these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge." It also emphasized that the declaration was not a questioning of the concept of original sin and should not be used "to negate the necessity of baptism or delay the conferral of the sacrament." Ladaria said no one could know for certain what becomes of unbaptized babies since Scripture is largely silent on the matter. The International Theological Commission is a body of Vatican-appointed theologians who advise the Pope and the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Benedict headed the Congregation for two decades before becoming Pope in 2005. With files from the Associated Press © 2007 Bell Canada, Microsoft Corporation and/or their contributors. All rights reserved. Terms of Use Advertise Privacy Statement About Us Anyway, what do any of you think about this, ummm, decision? Are any of you Catholics? How did this affect you?
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:51 am
As someone who was born Catholic, I was baptised against my will at an age before I had the ability to protest. Not viewing baptism as a requirement of being eternally happy, I believe baptism should always be performed under free will. I've already decided that my future children won't be initiated or baptised into any religion until they are at least 13 AND show convincingly that they are fully aware of what is going on.
Besides, in the bible, no one was baptised before they became a fully consenting adult, including Christ himself.
I'm not sure when churches started baptising children, but I know it did occur early in church history. They did mean well: No one is born without original sin and no one can enter heaven before "washing away" that original sin. Limbo was created by the church in the middle ages to help comfort mothers who lost their babies and were worried about their babies burning in Hell. There is no scriptural evidence for it. But at the same time, the bible doesn't seem to worry about dead babies anyway. Perhaps their innocence overrides their original sin? Perhaps that is a conclusion the Catholic Church is begining to come to...
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A Murder of Angels Captain
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:43 pm
My mom protested against normal belief and waited to get me baptistized. She thought I needed to know the religion before commiting to it. I'm still a Christian, a very wierd one, but one none the less.
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:54 pm
Yeah, MoA, I think I mostly agree with you. I guess it depends on a persons definition of baptism. For me, it is a covenant made with God, so obviously I don't believe babies or young children CAN make that decision. If it is against your will, well, to me it seems a pointless ordinance. But I understand if someone did NOT view it as a covenant, and that all must have it done, then you wouldn't want your kids to miss out.
For me, I was taught that original sin that made us mortal and have the ability to sin... but that we "will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression" as the 2nd Article of Faith of my Church says. Through Christ's atonement babies are born clean and innocent and remain such until they are old enough to know better and make their own mistakes... which, of course we all DO and that's why there is Baptism and repentance and such.
I have been meaning to ask my cousin-in-law wink Jake what he thinks about the announcement. He is Catholic. His wife, my cousin and best friend in the world is LDS like me, though not as devout. I actually have wondered, if they choose to have children (She is child-free at present and would rather remain that way awhile and maybe forever.), if they would baptize their baby in the Catholic church, or have them decided later as to which church they should join. Right now, like I say, it's a moot point. They are happy with their "babies"... their cats, Pixie and Monet. razz
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A Murder of Angels Captain
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:40 am
Kipluck For me, I was taught that original sin that made us mortal and have the ability to sin... but that we "will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression" as the 2nd Article of Faith of my Church says. Through Christ's atonement babies are born clean and innocent and remain such until they are old enough to know better and make their own mistakes... which, of course we all DO and that's why there is Baptism and repentance and such. Exactly! If Christ didn't come down here to take away original sin, what was the point of him coming down here at all??
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:53 pm
I myself was born and baptized only a day or two later. I was never told about any other religions and kept on the 'Christ Path', but as devout as I was, I never felt Christ's presence save for a few times. As I got older, I began meeting people of different faiths, mostly Mormons and Wiccans. I certainly never felt comfortable with the door-to-door Mormons, they made it seem like religion was more of a sales advertisement. I didn't look into Wiccan practices and beliefs until much later in life, about the same time I came across the Kemetic Orthodoxy via my spiritual Mother Sekhmet-Hethert. but even before I heard about other religions when I was younger, the Roman Catholic faith seemed hypocritical to me. Preaching peace and love yet condemning all other faiths, reading about the Spanish Inquisition, the burning of witches at the stake, the killing of native americans, and yet Jesus taught us 'Love thy neighbor and thy enemy as thyself.' I think baptism at birth or while still a baby is for the church to ensure that child will grow up in their faith.
What would be best for parents to do in the interests of thier children, is allow thier children to learn about other faiths while practicing thier own and then when they are old enough to decide what they want to do faith-wise, allow them to choose thier faith and if baptism is a part of it, then let them be baptized.
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:18 am
I shy away from the practice of infant baptism for the same reasons MoA wrote. If you're not really cognizant of what's going on, there isn't a point. Or is there? By some perspectives, relatives or those of certain religions will not be happy unless you've been at least baptized. Some of them feel that is a failsafe to ensure the child doesn't go to hell when they die and such.
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:20 pm
My mom didn't baptized me because she said it was my choice to pick the religion i wanted..... even though she is a hypocrite and doesn't accept the fact i choose on my own....
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:03 pm
I personally believe that baptism is an unnecessary social ritual. I accept, though, that others certainly don't believe that so they can baptize away . . . BUT WHY INFANTS?!?!? Ok, I understand the whole Adam & Eve and original sin, but I think it direspects who the infant will grow to be to force them through a ceremony of what you believe.
I was baptized at two months. I've been told it was to appease my grandparents and then that it was because my parents married in a Lutheran church (mom's Catholic, Voldemort's Lutheran, so my Catholic baptism was basically to balance them out. So basically I'm a business transaction).
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 2:34 pm
I'm a Christian and i believe to go to heaven you have to believe in your heart Jesus died and rose again and he is God's Son. Babies can't decide that... they are too young...
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:05 am
Though she did it in a very odd manner, Soupy touched on a very important issue. Are children capable of accepting Christ? I think that it is impossible to have a Christian child, only a child whose parents are Christian. Children do not have the capacity to think critically about their own faith (hell, most adults don't), and so having a child be any kind of religious is an impossibility, by nature.
But this raises an even more important issue. My mother, in her ever-astounding social grace, declared that anybody who has been baptised, even should they later reject Christianity, is a Christian. What do you all think? I'll chime in later, as usual.
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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:30 am
I don't think it's right to be baptized at birth. I mean, I think it should be a choice you make for yourself. I think I might have been baptized Roman Catholic as per my mother's request, but I don't remember.
All I know is that I think it's unfair to do that to a child before they can make any sort of decision on their own.
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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:30 pm
I don't believe in baptizing infants, for -as it's been said- even Christ wasn't baptized until he was a consenting adult. I do, however, believe in Christenings. Which, although they are called baptisms, are in the United Methodist Church a profession of the parents' faith. The text, or whatever, says something about raising the infant child in a Christian home until he or she is old enough to choose for him/herself the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. I plan on giving this to all of my children, promising to raise them in a Christian home that is open-minded enough to allow them to choose for themselves a religion.
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:51 pm
I would agree with the idea of Christening, as well, I believe. biggrin But not actual BAPTISM of babies.
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:49 pm
I don't think you should baptise babies. It doesn't mean anything if you do. From what my church says, you are supposed to get bapatized as a kind of "confirmation" of your faith in Jesus Christ. A baby cannot do that.
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