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This isn't really a new concept for the Church, as many of us know. Some of you may recall the pressure put on the thread when it was still in M&R to be more accepting of newcomers and not be so elitist.

We've since been moved to the Chatterbox and I think neccesity has made most of us a little more accepting to newbies, intellectual snobbery pushed aside for patience and forgiveness. Publically, at any rate.

Today it was brought back up in the thread and the discussion was quickly stifled for the sake of peace and, I'm sure, avoiding possible drama. But I think it's something worth talking about; not as a critique of the thread or any specific people, but as a simple discussion on the social order of our little clique and how we all view it.

Are we elitist or not? Are people made to feel unwelcome? Is elitism neccesarily a bad thing?

I know this is unstable ground here, so I repeat: this isn't a place for fingerpointing. Discuss.

It's only fair I put my own two cents in.

I'm fairly elitist. I don't pretend otherwise. I have standards for myself and friends outside of the internet as well as in the thread. So generally, I'm slow to warm up to people. But I do give them a chance.

The thing with forums is that who ever may be in "power" at any given time can change within less than a year. New people come, old people leave, new people become the old people and the cycle continues. There's no denying that those who were active in the "good ol' days" aren't as high in number any more.

Is it possible to interact in a group without elitism coming into play? I think it depends on your definition of elitism. I mean, we all have preferences of who we like more and who we'd rather hang out with. We may snub some people in favor for others. Does that make us elitist or just picky?

~Flutters Wings nervously~
Well, it's hard to claim there isn't some sort of hierarchy... sweatdrop
However, I'm not exactly sure how it comes about.
I can speculate on the matter, but it's just that, speculation.
The easy answer is raw popularity, however, that only covers certain facets.
If I were to speculate, I would venture that, not only is there a certain unspoken (as well as spoken) striation (as occurs in many social dynamics) but that, mayhaps, there are multiple ones.
From some of my lurk time, and some of my don't have time to post time, I notice that certain member of our august humble assembly seem more prone to interacting with certain specific others.
Not only Elitism, but Sectarianism, oh my. eek
Honestly tho, I have only rarely seen it peek to the point of isolationism or xenophobia.
Even these brief events are to be expected, if not endorsed, given the circumstances.
Many instances which are considered stand-offish, I am confident, are really just miscommunications or misunderstandings.

In all fairness... I should likely lurk for awhile and actually watch how the thread goes, without throwing in the mix... because I have observed that there are subtle shifts in behavior when some people are in known to be in the thread. ninja

This is something that needs to be said. I'm glad it was brought up here, as DYB is not the place for such discussion.

There is, for lack of a better term, elitism in the Church. There always has been, and as far as I can tell, there always will be. Trying to pretend otherwise is self-delusion.

There are those who have been around since the beginning. There are those who have been around since the M&R days, which include many of the people from the first group. There are those who came in simply because they were friends of existing members, or passed the thread and decided to take a look. There are those who came in after the Chatterbox.

Of course there is a percieved hierarchy. Of course there are those who are in an "inner circle". You will never find a place where there are not social groups within a social group. People tend to tolerate and talk to and hang around the same people, based off of similar interests, unique experiences, or simply because of familiarity. You will always like some people more than others.

Is there power in the thread? Of course there is. When Rommy says to stop, people stop. When a Saint comes in, people pay attention. When someone has something interesting to say, people will listen.

Is any of this a bad thing? No. It's natural order. It's human nature. Many people are uncomfortable in the face of newcomers, mostly because of the inherent unfamilarity.

Personally, I have found that the most common cries of "OMG ELITISM" are from those who want instant respect and acknowledgement, without having to become a known presence. Those who commonly cry out "ELITISM" are those who wanted something and didn't get it. Are there exceptions to this? Yes, but that does not disprove the fact that the most common occurances of this is as detailed above.

Sure, people get lost in the thread's speed and the presence of better-known figures. People are dismissed simply because they're new and nobody knows precisely who they are. This is an issue, and a valid one. Cries of "OMG ELITISM" will not garner favor in the eyes of those whose respect you want.

I will not even touch upon the Societas, since Elitism is the whole point of that place. This is neither the place nor the time to discuss it, however.



I believe this is not the case. As I stated above, the very nature of humans is to gravitate towards those who they are more familiar and/or comfortable around.



"Elitist" is the wrong word in this context, but "picky" isn't much better. As soon as I figure out what the appropriate word is, I'll let you know.

Conceded. I had completely forgotten about that, sorry.



That's precisely the feeling I got from it, too.

Speaking of which, Kyraa should be contacting you pretty soon, I think. But that's something else entirely.

Now, I have to say that there is elitism in the thread, that it's bad, and that it's rampant. That said, it's nothing I haven't said before.

I'm not sure how, or why, it comes about. Except that people tend to gravitate toward each other when they know one another, and that when that happens, they get shared experiences which they'll talk about. Now, that's not really a bad thing, but it makes it hard for new people to join in. The more this goes on, the harder it is.

That's not to say it's so simple, though. When things like that happen, a lot of the time people start to play off each other, and can start to gang up on others who aren't really all that comfortable in the environment. This, also, is a mistake that people don't really mean.

But then, there are also people who simply favor themselves and those they know over others. They'll purposefully ridicule or pick on people for no reason other than that they don't know them. This is just horrid and it really, really pisses me off. Now, I'll admit that I've been a bit sore about it, because I felt a while ago that I was a victim of it. But that's been made up and the parties involved are fine and dandy, even friends.

So why? Because it's wrong. It's just not what the CoM is about, is it? What was the CoM founded on? I don't think it was staying close to those you know, and getting off a joke at another's expense, or just simply letting out your frustration on someone you don't know?

I know for a fact that a lot of the people who are here were victims of it. It's strange, because the ones that fight hardest to get in are the ones that almost always seem to face elitism. I remember Ichigo faced it, and I know was I part of it, and I hated myself for it.

Is there a point for that? At all? I don't care if you're elitist, but if you are blatant...and you start to piss people off, are you really any better than a troll who happens to have been there a while?

It just angers me.

I will point the finger at myself and say that I did mention elitism in the DYBIM today. However, I really threw out the word offhand, and was referring to the more inherent nature of this group than any purposeful designs. Afterall, do we not have our select members who are saints or maybe even mods? And like was mentioned before, the very concept of a "secret society" is elitist in and of itself. This is the result of the type of group we chose to join, one that is loosely based off a theocracy.

However, do I believe there is some hurtful elitism as well? Definitely, though I will say I see it much less often than I used to. And like Icy, I will admit there are times that even I only want to talk to certain people. Furthermore, the presence of specific people in the thread definitely changes the dynamic, and I will say there have been times (mostly in the past) where I've felt uncomfortable or left out. This really isn't any different from social situations in real life, though. And we've become a lot better about it. I think we're one of the more welcoming of long-term literate discussion threads in the chatterbox.

I don't see anything wrong with that, nor do I really feel that warrants the title of elitism or cliquishness.




Why would the presence of certain people alter your own comments?




Really? Why?




A highly inappropriate comment, though ironic given the source.


Does that mean you disagree with the decision to saint certain people, or do you simply disagree with the method for choosing them?




Really? I disagree. I think that the thread is a fairly open and friendly one, as long as people conform to the general practices of the thread (literacy being chief among these). People who don't conform to the thread but instead expect the thread to conform to them are rightfully shunned.




Except that the sainting process is open and democratic.