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 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:50 am
Unitarian-Universalists are supposed to accept and love everyone, right? No matter what that person's beliefs are? And not try to change their beliefs
But what about religious fundamentalists? Can UUs be tolerant of that much intolerance?
I'm not... but am I still a good UU if I don't tolerate bigotry? Intolerance of bigotry is still intolerance...
Does this make me a UU fundamentalist? Is that even possible?
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:17 am
Lucca Ashtear Can UUs be tolerant of that much intolerance? You would have to 'recognize and respect the practice of not recognizing and respecting the beliefs and practices of others'. Gah, what I say is this: You can tell them why they should practice tolerance. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with trying to change someone's beliefs, as long as you're not lying/expecting them to change.You can tolerate it, but defend the people who they are intolerant of. I don't know.
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:21 am
I thought I was following you and I had an answer for that until you used the word "bigot". For a while I have associated that word with racial conflicts and not religious ones. So umm....can I ask you to clarify with an example of the intolerance you were thinking of? sweatdrop I'm not a fundimentalist so I don't exactly know whether or not there ARE racial issues here...or if it's a religious conflict. If it's a religious conflict (meaning they are trying to shove their religion down your throats and convert you), then yeah...I think there is a way to meet their "intolerance" with tolerance. This guild is one that has a foundation based on tolerance. It's not just so that Christians can come to understand wiccans and pagans (just to throw out an example)...it's also so that wiccans and pagans can come to understand Christians. Part of that is understanding just WHY some Christians will try to get you to convert. I know a lot of people may wonder "Don't those Jehovah's Witnesses have anything better to do then come knocking on my door?" but truth of the matter is...they probably don't. I'll copy and paste something I wrote in the sexuality thread since it's a little related to my point. Cyanna When hell is a reality for you, things can get scary. Especially if you really care for [someone] outside of your faith. Someone on Gaia asked me how could I live with myself knowing that my agnostic boyfriend was destined for hell and I was doing nothing about it. Believing in hell...*sigh* I don't know what hell is but I wouldn't wish it on anybody. But...you can't force someone to believe. You can only tell them what you know and they must choose [to believe] with their own heart. If someone believes that salvation can only be obtained one way then I cannot comprehend why it is considered hateful to try and help others avoid what is considered to be the worst thing that can happen to a person. I'm not saying that pushing the matter is the best way to go about it as it creates a prejudice towards Christians. But if you fear for a friend's immortal soul, it isn't right to pretend you are totally and completely comfortable with it. Violence, hate crimes and just treating people like crap are a totally different story. This is why I don't feel ill towards the more fundimentalist faiths. I actually appreciate the fact that they care enough about my immortal soul to risk reputation and being hated...that takes a lot of courage. Even if I do not agree with that particular way of practicing faith...at least that can understand their motives. The closed minds do not all belong on one side of the line. To feel that such things are always spawned out of hatred (in particular) is also close-minded....or at least a lack of understanding.
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:42 am
Lucca Ashtear Unitarian-Universalists are supposed to accept and love everyone, right? No matter what that person's beliefs are? And not try to change their beliefs But what about religious fundamentalists? Can UUs be tolerant of that much intolerance? I'm not... but am I still a good UU if I don't tolerate bigotry? Intolerance of bigotry is still intolerance... Does this make me a UU fundamentalist? Is that even possible? If you are intolerant of those who are intolerant, you yourself are in the exact same boat as them. You both are intolerant. To be fully tolerant, well, you simply must understand that it is someone's right to be intolerant and that they have a right to practice it. However, tolerance in no way, ever says you have to agree. So, as long as you understand that it is their right to both think intolerantly and act intolerantly, then you are tolerating intolerance, in a way that would be rather logical. Now, note by right, I do not mean right by the law, I mean right as in outside the context of the social contract theory. That pretty much means that everything is right, if it is right for you.
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:40 pm
Lucca Ashtear Unitarian-Universalists are supposed to accept and love everyone, right? No matter what that person's beliefs are? And not try to change their beliefs But what about religious fundamentalists? Can UUs be tolerant of that much intolerance? I'm not... but am I still a good UU if I don't tolerate bigotry? Intolerance of bigotry is still intolerance... Does this make me a UU fundamentalist? Is that even possible? Agh! Too much thinking! *brain explodes* ...just kidding. Anyway, I think as long as you live a good, virtuous life, and follow your teachings, you're a good Unitarian. Perhaps you can't tolerate bigotry (which is entirely understandible), but you can still love those bigoted people, imperfections aside. Sorta like "Hate the sin, love the sinner." Well, I hope I helped a little. If not, oh well.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:18 pm
im thinking its just that you cant make them stop being intolerant. essentially just look the other way and pretend it isnt wrong.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:14 pm
god hates haters. liberation theology says god sides with the oppressed and the underdog.
what this means for the "loving god" idea is that the bullies and the robber barons get to experience a little "tough love".
i personally think it is foolish to call people intolerant who have no patience for intolerance. it is just playing with words.
i work with little kids. if i see one beating another i separate them, get the story, and punish the guilty. i love them both, but the bully needs a kind of love that will not tolerate that behavior.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:29 pm
Just take it in stride. You have to let others be intolerant, and be tolerant of their beliefs. You should be an example of tolerance to the intolerant.
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:06 am
If 'haters' includes anyone that's ever hated someone... That's like... 99.9% of the population.
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:09 am
Contingent If 'haters' includes anyone that's ever hated someone... That's like... 99.9% of the population. Well, technically more, I can think of only one example, and that can be debated. That person is jesus, and if we count the satan as a person, well then, 100% of well over 6.6 billion people have hated.
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:05 am
chaoticpuppet Contingent If 'haters' includes anyone that's ever hated someone... That's like... 99.9% of the population. Well, technically more, I can think of only one example, and that can be debated. That person is jesus, and if we count the satan as a person, well then, 100% of well over 6.6 billion people have hated. Not to mention god hates himself, if he hates haters.
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:50 am
Contingent chaoticpuppet Contingent If 'haters' includes anyone that's ever hated someone... That's like... 99.9% of the population. Well, technically more, I can think of only one example, and that can be debated. That person is jesus, and if we count the satan as a person, well then, 100% of well over 6.6 billion people have hated. Not to mention god hates himself, if he hates haters. OMG, what a paradox that would be. God can't commit a sin, because he is perfect. Hate is a sin. God hates haters. God is commiting a sin, when god clearly cannot sin. eek
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:03 am
Contingent chaoticpuppet Contingent If 'haters' includes anyone that's ever hated someone... That's like... 99.9% of the population. Well, technically more, I can think of only one example, and that can be debated. That person is jesus, and if we count the satan as a person, well then, 100% of well over 6.6 billion people have hated. Not to mention god hates himself, if he hates haters. Since when does God have self-esteem issues?
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:26 am
Naeryn Contingent chaoticpuppet Contingent If 'haters' includes anyone that's ever hated someone... That's like... 99.9% of the population. Well, technically more, I can think of only one example, and that can be debated. That person is jesus, and if we count the satan as a person, well then, 100% of well over 6.6 billion people have hated. Not to mention god hates himself, if he hates haters. Since when does God have self-esteem issues? Ever since he started sinning. There is an interesting story to why he started sinning, some call it peer-pressure, others like myself say that it was merely a product of him watching all the "cool" people doing it, and he even saw all the "non-cool" people (like myself) do it to. And then one day, he was looking around heaven, and he saw micheal, the archangel, and asked him why people people who sinned had so much fun? And micheal looked at him wierd, and god saw that he didn't understand, so he showed, micheal the picture he saw of all the people sinning and having fun. That picture along with a discussion with people in heaven later convinced micheal to sin, because, he hardly had any fun in heaven. He talked to all of the 2 people there, and realized that after a while they got boring. It took him less than a 10 minute conversation to realize that what he needed to do was sin, and he would have more fun. So he started sinning, and he had fun. Eventually everyone else in heaven followed suit, god was the last to do so, but only after he had talked to the "fallen one." God asked him why people sinned, and the "fallen one" said, well, remember when you created this world? God answered "yes." Then the "fallen one" asked, "remember when you made all things that where considered fun a sin (e.g. pre-marital sex, homosexual sex, pride, etc.)? God answered "what do you mean, surely those aren't fun." The "fallen one" then said, do you know why people rebel? God answered "they have no love" the fallen one said "no, it is because they do not like rules, when one follows the rules, things become unfun, when one doesn't follow the rules, things become fun. That which is considered taboo, is that which is considered fun, because, you are not allowed to do it, yet, when you do, there is the chance that you will get caught, and when that chance is there, it makes it more exciting to do it. That is why people who sin have fun." God later realized, that he was no longer all knowing, since he was surprised by the "fallen one's" answer, which led him to the conclusion that he was no longer perfect, once he realized that, he decided to start sinning, because it looked fun. And he had fun. This is an actual account of the events I saw on my springbreak in heaven.
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:16 pm
i don't see how you can work for justice, or free the oppressed, without punishing some bad guys. if you don't do such things, aren't you just being indifferent aboiut the victims? liberation theology talks about "God's option for the poor." this basically means that we have a deity who takes sides. here is a good site about it: http://latter-rain.com/freedom/libthe.htmexcerpts from the site: "Once you start working for the rights of the poor in an impoverished nation, you are suddenly an economic threat to the forces that will oppress and exploit them. Think of liberation theology however in the Christian context that it is anti-authoritarian, anti-imperialist, has a preferential option for the poor and stands against laissez-faire economic domination and oppression. This will provoke attacks from the right." and... Brazilian liberation theologian Archbishop Helder Camara says, "When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist." and... "Isaiah 61:1,2, The spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound. To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn. The very living of Christian faith involves the creation of a new world with peace and justice fertilized by Christian hopes. A prosperity church has for too long focused on individual faith and family and put down the Biblical notion that kingdom salvation involves liberation from oppressive economic and political structures as well. Liberation theologians have emphasized that unity among Christians is only a myth so long as there are oppressed and oppressors within their ranks. "
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