I tried to broaden the options a bit, but left out anything that would to be too favorable/extreme for a starting village.
All of them technically have a slight elementary leaning one way or another, but they are still mostly neutral.
I recommend you follow up with a post explaining yourself and/or adding detail to your vote (make sure you state what it was)
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:07 pm
I think a bamboo forest near a mountain would be very good to start in. Similar benefits as a forest, but with some interesting benefits.
While it isnt too themy, it would be something new. Limited visibility, far easier to get lost in than a forest, very easy to lay traps with bamboo making it dangerous for outsiders. Putting it near/on a mountain would allow you to keep one side mostly defended naturally.
It's a bit obvious that I voted for bamboo forest. It just seems to be the most neutral, as well as fresh idea. Placing it near a mountain even allows us to further balance roleplaying for doton users among the other things aforementioned.
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:26 pm
Just felt I should clarify, since people seem to be confused. The actual Poll isn't really the important part here, its just an easy way of organizing the possibilities. If you want a mix or something then state so in the comment and that will be what you voted for. Anyone can change their vote later if they see a more interesting suggestion.
We currently have two votes for bamboo forest right next to a mountain
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Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:46 pm
I wouldn't mind having a lake or pond nearby. Maybe up the mountain a bit, or somewhere in the Bamboo forest. I also think that we should have a plains area close by.
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:11 pm
Well, the reason I think that we should have a lake nearby or some source of salt/fresh water, is that if we don't, we'll mostly survive off of small game, pandas, and produce. I mean we could hike a couple miles up the mountain, hunt for an entire day in game, and then walk back down the next day, taking 3 days to actually get large game such as elk or deer. With a lake, we could supplement the dietary needs with fish, and maybe pass off the bamboo forest as having larger game.
Hintoe makes a point, I thought that we'd have the village with the mountain wrapping around slightly about a mile, mile and a half from the village itself, and then the bamboo forest about ten miles off in the distance. Close enough for having the ability to walk to and back in one day with enough time to stay there for about 8 hours, and that's if you actually walk it rather than sprint/run it. Rather than the mountain runs into the bamboo forest, and the village is kinda in the middle-ish. Given that position, the village would be in a hilly area, and about 8 of the miles between the village and the bamboo forest would be plains, perfect for farmland and grazing pastures of animals.
Depending on placement of the lake/pond/river, we could easily transform it into a way to retrieve more resources if it is up the mountain. I'm fairly certain that there is an actual forest on the mountain somewhere right? Well, if we have a lake, all we'd have to do is make a flume to send the logs down the side of hte mountain with some water, and we'd make a pond at the bottom that we'd be able to retrieve the logs from without any damage to them, as well as retrieve water easily. As things are now, we'd be hard pressed for water. If we're on the leeward side of the mountain we get absolutely no rain what so ever. If we're not, then we get all the rain since it can't pass the mountain, and will flow down. Then we have to decide if it is fresh or salt water, since if it is fresh, we're limited to having mostly only fish and a couple of crawfish to eat. If it is salt based, then we've got a much larger array of crustaceans we can eat along with fish. We'd have to desalinize the water for drinking purposes if it was salt water, but that equates to boiling it and catching the water in a different container. It's an extremely simple process, and we'd probably be doing it anyway since fish and other animals bathe and relieve themselves in the water. If we are on the Leeward side, then the river/lake/pond would be on the other side of the mountain's peak.
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Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:14 am
...
What?
You have us a mile from the mountain, which would be our main defense, and ten miles from the bamboo forest, our intended cover to hide us from view. I don't think I should need to explain why that makes no sense. You basically have us sitting in the middle of nowhere, miles from the terrain we apparently have decided to start in. With the mountain backed forest design, the village would be right on the edge of the mountain, with the forest surrounding us. The village would be started as a clearing in the bamboo forest, not on a random hill hours away from it.
You also seem to forget we're ninjas. Not loggers, nor hunters or fishers. Building materials we can get from buying from actual loggers, or theft, or we could just hack down some of our handy bamboo. Food can be attained in the same ways, or we can hunt. It wouldn't however take a ninja three days to hunt down some large game. More like a few hours if it's in the area to get enough for a week. And if we felt the need to process our water, there is such a thing as suiton which can not only pull water from thin air, but also be used to purify the water. We're making a ninja simulation, not a wilderness survival game. The only time food or water are likely to even matter is if we build it into a scene/mission/story.
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:35 pm
The mountain hooks around, covering two, maybe three sides of the village. Just because we're not sitting directly with our backs against the mountain doesn't mean it provides no defense. If we're sitting with our backs right against the mountain, do you have any idea how hilly and difficult the terrain would be? Travel and moving resources would be difficult, unless we felt like just making it flat as soon as we get off the mountain, which seems really unrealistic. Or we could put a cliff to our back which is really scary because then there is no place to run if someone just decides to zerg us. With it being a short distance away, we have space to run, we are ninja, you put us in a confined space and we start to get a tad bit screwed. Also, The Forest can't be right on top of us because then we either expand by removing portions of the mountain [Our defense] or by hacking and slashing the forest [Our Cover]. The Forest is going to be huge I'm guessing, easily about 50 miles long and 30 miles thick. That would be 150 square miles, enough for anyone to find cover or get lost in. By putting that much forest that far from us, we've got the space for farmland and development to expand the village and not have to worry about getting rid of our cover.
You're right, we're just ninja, trying to survive without the resources to survive. It's not like we have to get food, hunting or fishing, or build sufficient cover, logging and mining. I guess we could just build shacks to live in, since bamboo isn't the sturdiest of materials, and we could rebuild tools over and over and over again because we use bamboo which is grass instead of actual wood. [Yes, Bamboo is considered a grass.] Do you have any idea how hard it is to climb a mountain, with the tools to kill an elk with your bare hands, or a blade, or trap it [which would take a bit of time in set up and waiting for the traps to actually injure it, unless you dropped a boulder on it.] It would take a day to trek up, find the game trails, make sure game is in the area without scaring it off, set the traps, make sure they're functional, and then wait for the animals to wonder into the traps. Then another day to check the traps, locate the game that unless you built a pitfall it ran away bleeding [If it was a pitfall, then you get to hoist the game back up.] then get it back to camp, field dress it, clean the area of all scents [A lake or river would really help with this], find a safe route down with 300+ pounds of raw meat on you, so unless you plan on tripping and falling down the side of a mountain, ruining the meat unless you took the time to wrap it, and make it down fast enough so the meat doesn't spoil, that would take a day, maybe two. If you expect a single shinobi to have enough chakra to be able to draw the moisture from the air to give an entire village water, irrigate crops, and water animals, then something is a bit wrong. The water manipulation jutsu doesn't have a set amount, but if we've got someone making a pond worth of water daily, then that's just a tad bit op. If we're on the Leeward side of the mountain, there wouldn't even be enough moisture in the air to actually do that.
I'm not saying make it absolutely necessary to do that, but maybe, just maybe, I'm thinking of making it more realistic so we can have genin doing better missions that take time a small amount of irp, and require a bit of cooperation between each other rather than this is our target, everyone start trying to achieve it independently of each other. Unless we're going to have fighting missions for the genin regularly, this would be a great alternative.
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Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:25 pm
Tim, I think you're downplaying the fact that even genin are still badass superhumans compared to civilians. We can hunt with a set of kuai, scale the mountain in a few hours with ninja jumps and wall walking, and have a whole team of ninja with the water element purify our water or even mechanical equipment or seal array. The point is, the hyper-realism isn't necessary since it's easily circumvented with chakra.
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:24 am
If you stab an Elk or a deer, it'll just run away and die about 3 or 4 miles away if you did well and hit a vital area, or it might just run away and survive. I've seen deer that have three or four arrows sticking out of their rib cage and are still moving around well enough to survive. Big game aren't as easy as you guys make them out to be to kill. I doubt genin can hit a moving target with such strength and precision that even archers can't hit with compound bows. I'd also like to point out that we've limited ninja jumps before to the point 15 feet was the max someone could do. I think we've removed that, but climbing a sheer face mountain is going to take a bit mroe than 15 feet. As for wall walking, I can see that, but do we really want to be spending that kind of chakra, and what about my weapon specialist character who is going to be unable to even utilize chakra? Is he just going to latch on to the nearest person with available sticky feet?
I think that just because several of the people are superhuman doesn't mean that everyone will be. Rock Lee was basically a child version with less intellect of Bruce Lee. He was perfectly human, but I'd wager that Bruce could have fought through most of the ninja ranks one on one. Just because it is easily circumvented doesn't mean it should be. Let the roleplayer circumvent it through rp, don't just spoon feed them the results. If there is a tricky area to traverse, by all means use Wall walking. If you think you can take out a deer with a tiny knife and your bare hands, by all means, try it. But if you'll take the time, go camping with your team, talk for a couple of posts, maybe about 5, the fifth ending with everyone going to sleep and waking up. You've had character development as well as an analog of the passage of time for the deer/elk to have been injured, or killed in your traps you've got set up. I've been told not to just try and rush through everything to try and rank up, but the reason I rush through stuff was because the missions were so boring, and over so fast if I just posted back to back about chasing a chihuahua through Kumogakure. This way, we encourage teamwork, posting, and get some decent character development.
I'm going to shut up now, because I'm going to guess that you guys are starting to get annoyed by me. I've given my two cents, and I hope it at least gives you guys an idea of where to go from here.
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Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:46 am
"If we're sitting with our backs right against the mountain, do you have any idea how hilly and difficult the terrain would be? Travel and moving resources would be difficult,"
Ninja.
"Or we could put a cliff to our back which is really scary because then there is no place to run if someone just decides to zerg us."
Ninja.
"we either expand by removing portions of the mountain [Our defense] or by hacking and slashing the forest [Our Cover]."
Yes. That is the idea.
"The Forest is going to be huge I'm guessing, easily about 50 miles long and 30 miles thick."
No... Just, no. At that point it WOULD be an entire country of only bamboo, which is quite silly. The forest would be a couple miles or so in each direction at most.
"You're right, we're just ninja, trying to survive without the resources to survive. It's not like we have to get food, hunting or fishing, or build sufficient cover, logging and mining."
Exactly. You're still forgetting that we are ninja. The nearest civilian town will be at most a day's walk away, for a genin. Rather than sending a bunch of genin out hunting to hopefully find a deer or two, why not send them to intercept and steal a village's entire supply caravan? Or just buy the stuff. We're the first ninja village. We aren't the first village period, and we're not trying to live out in the middle of nowhere.
"bamboo isn't the sturdiest of materials, and we could rebuild tools over and over and over again because we use bamboo which is grass instead of actual wood. [Yes, Bamboo is considered a grass.]"
Bamboo is a common building material in areas where it grows. It's certainly not the strongest of materials, but it's sturdy, and quick growing, and where there's any of it, there's a lot of it. besides, how better to blend a village with a bamboo forest than to build it out of bamboo? Any invader would have to look twice just to see there was anything there but a more dense section of forest. As for tools, again, we're not alone in the world, living on a deserted island or something. We're not going to try building hammers and pickaxes out of bamboo. If we want that stuff, we can get it from other people.
"Do you have any idea how hard it is to climb a mountain, with the tools to kill an elk with your bare hands, or a blade, or trap it"
Ninja.
"find a safe route down with 300+ pounds of raw meat on you, so unless you plan on tripping and falling down the side of a mountain, ruining the meat unless you took the time to wrap it, and make it down fast enough so the meat doesn't spoil,"
Ninja.
"If you expect a single shinobi to have enough chakra to be able to draw the moisture from the air to give an entire village water, irrigate crops, and water animals,"
Multiple ninja. Also, we don't need crops, nor animals. And I never said there wouldn't be water nearby. However, the idea of building a "Hidden" "Ninja" village, with massive fields of produce and the sounds of farm animals acting as a beacon straight to us, is ludicrous.
"I'm thinking of making it more realistic so we can have genin doing better missions"
This new setup has plenty of potential for us (By which I mean either the crew or the council, or both.) to come up with plenty of realistic missions. You're not looking at realistic. You're looking at everyone completely forgetting they're ninja for days, weeks, and months at a time to do things that they could achieve in hours.
"If you stab an Elk or a deer, it'll just run away and die about 3 or 4 miles away"
Ninja. What happens if you hold onto it rather than letting it run? Overpower it and hold it down? Dive on it from above and lop it's head right off? If ninja have to hunt, they're going to hunt as ninja, not civilians.
"I think we've removed that, but climbing a sheer face mountain is going to take a bit mroe than 15 feet."
So somehow we've gone from a trek up a mountain to rock climbing? Unless the mountain is literally a sheer face, without a single crack, outcropping, or indent, fifteen feet is more than enough to jump along it. And we never did work out any sort of jumping limitations.
"what about my weapon specialist character who is going to be unable to even utilize chakra?"
Tough luck? Any weakness caused by your character design is up to you to compensate for, we don't have to build the world to fit your character.
Basically, to summarize... We are ninja. We do ninja things in ninja ways. We can go hunting if we want, but more than likely it will be done with ninja methods. We're not starting a farming or hunting settlement though, we're starting a ninja village. If there's ever going to be any sort of farming or mining or anything of that sort going on within the village, it's going to be MUCH further down the line when we've expanded and gotten more reliable defenses than anonymity to keep those areas safe. It'd also be civilians who moved in over time that would be working the farms and things, not our ninja.
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:28 am
I think a simpler way to answer would be... We are not going for a survival RP (which might be fun actually with the right people) either. I don't see why you couldnt go on a hunting trip like that, though I imagine if you are taking that kind of game for a ninja then it would probably be very specific/rare. Even without tools, remember that we sorta have ninja magic which can blow stuff up (or stuff that might not ruin the meat)
Missions will no longer be quite as "boring" for genin because the village simply isnt that prosperous. We simply wont be able to afford wasting time on low paying dog sitting missions, and will not have enough ninja to leave Genin out of important village centered missions. Hunting could be a possible mission, but even if it was I doubt weed want to force the kind of realism where everyone has to know how to prepare and protect meat, etc.
Although as a more minor point... You do realize people used to survive like that all the time before cities existed correct? its not impossible even for normal humans. Every large city started as a small town once, these towns could not have existed if they could not either get their own food/water or trade/steal for it.
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Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:04 pm
Because you're talking directly to me, I'll respond, but it'll be in a spoiler. Ignore it if you would please, I'm not even wanting to really continue the conversation because it's just going to end in me being ignored, or told to be quiet. I just want some water, a reasonable area for expansion where we don't have to destroy the mountain or the forest, and missions where we don't have to explain everything as ninja magic when normal humans would be having difficulties.
Yes, because Ninja can compensate for animals being crap at walking over hills, or easily drag entire trees over hills.
And we'd just let the civilians die a horrible death? Sounds kinda sneaky and underhanded, which I'v'e recently read would make you untrustworthy.
I'm going to say that's a stupid idea... By the end of the village, the entire bamboo forest would be gone.
Thats 150 square miles... For reference, that's almost 1/3rd of the city Hong Kong. That's extremely tiny...
You've already stated if we start stealing everything, then we're going ot get targeted really really fast. So the less we steal in the beginning, the less we have to worry about people zerging us, wiping out our civilian population, along with any shinobi who don't know the wall walking technique. I'm fairly certain that we ARE trying to live out in the middle of no where. We're in a heavily secluded area, that no one knows about a village being there, and we're trying to keep it that way. Yeah, we're living in the sticks. [or grass if you would.]
Bamboo is used as scaffolding... It's to hold you up while you work on the actual building. It's not all that sturdy, a child could break a full grown sprout by swinging on it. A grown man standing on a single piece walking back and forth WILL break it, and piling rocks on top of it for a house will break the house. Also, you'd have to be nearly an idiot to have to look twice when you see a bamboo box [a rag tag shack] in the middle of a forest. Unless you plan on living in something where you open the door and that's the entire house, you're not going to be blending in. You'd have a better chance of building a brick house in a brickyard than building a bamboo house in a forest made entirely of lines. Again, we're living in the sticks, wanting no one to know about us yet, and we're going to be stealing or trading? If we trade, we're going ot get asked where we're from. If we don't come up with a decent back story for every single shinobi before we start trading, then we'll be in trouble.
Naruto could barely carry 200 pounds of anything... That goes for nearly everyone aside from Tsunade, Sakura, or some of the other people. Obito was pretty much crushed by about 400-600 pounds, sooo... 300 would be difficult to move around with. I know you've said you could dance ballet with 200 pounds on your back, but I call so much bs on that it isn't even funny. None of the show's characters could do half hte things they do with that kind of weight on them. If you use Rock Lee, you're using the guy that is purposfully superhuman to even him out with the others, and that's the only reason he's got weights that heavy. None of the other characters would function with those weights, besides maybe tsunade or Sakura, or one of hte huge guys from half hte filler episodes.
Sound Village was EXACTLY what I'm describing, and you loved the Sound village.
No, I'm looking at us being human, we have to eat drink, and not use our super powers every single opportunity we get. What would happen if someone was climbing the mountain and saw us spamming fireballs at rabbits? Also, what is the point of hacving civilians if we're just spamming water manipulation to create drinking water? That's just outright idiocy.
Elk and Deer will drop if something latches onto them. Despite us being "better" than human, if we take 400 pounds going about 10 miles per hour, we're going to break a lot. Trust me, I've seen a coyote hop onto one's back, and this was a little deer, It ran a bit, did a front flip, and got back up with it's back covered in blood as the carcass slid off of it's back, then resumed running despite the holes in it's side.Overpower it? You can hit the things with a tundra or one of those other huge trucks, wreck your entire front end, damage the engine block, and the deer will stand up, shake it's head, and run away. You could do that, but suppose it's a buck and it notices you up above it and swings it's antlers to block, or gouge your leg? You're basically going to hack the antlers and miss the deer/elk, or you're going to be limping home, assuming it decided to run instead of throwing you, then following you aiming to gore you. If we're going to be acting as civilians, we should do so at all times, not just when we're with other people.
The reason I said that is because of the mention of Wall walking. Wall walking works on solid surfaces. Gravel or rocky paths wouldn't be solid. It was the old Taijutsu specialist Bird Watching. It capped jumps at 15 feet.
I understand that, but if you need jutsu to do everything, then my character is pretty much screwed. The way you're explaining it is everything is done with jutsu, screw logic saying that we have to protect our identity, we'll just blow everything up.
@ Hikaro So what are we talking for missions, steal from a caravan, that will just be 5 posts of mindless violence followed by 3 posts going home? That's pretty much boring. Heck, I was getting pretty bored with the track and fight Kensei quest because it just got tedious. The mission I've proposed, allows us to travel, do work, talk, train, bond, advance as a human being, and then achieve the set goal, then travel.
I'm saying EXACTLY that. But you're just explaining it away as ninja magic. I'm giving you vague ways to achieve the goals of a old style of living, and you're trying to circumvent it with ninja magic.
So we're not having ANY civilians in our village to start with what so ever?
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:56 am
The limited trading/stealing is why I advocated copying the Sound Village concept but composed almost entirely of ninja under the guise of civilians. Basically a dozen or so clans and individual ninja brought together by the council. The clans would have their own money and equipment that would be piled together for the village. One of they may have ownd the plot of land that the village is built on. We can steal from caravans but as ninja we can make it look like simple bandits. We can easily come up with a backstory for trade but at the same time we don't need to answer any questions in the first place. If they want what were a selling (services, resources, or furnished goods), they'll shut-up and trade.
Hunting: A team of ninja could simply force the animals into prepared traps, we don't need to spam fireballs. If carrying a heavy deer is too unrealistic then sure, someone can spend a post doing whatever it is to make the trip easier but most Rpers won't know what to do or care as much. Also it's up to the team members to bond/interact in any mission, the type of mission typically won't effect that too much. Rather than gear missions towards interaction we should work on making the Rpers know to interact in the transition phases. Because the mission you proposed follows the same formula as the caravan mission and EVERY mission; travel/bonding phase, mindless violence phase, return home phase.
And you're in a Naruto RP with a character who can't use chakra at all, that's one of the biggest hindrances you can have. Against bandits and samurai you won't be in too much trouble but against ninja who can spam miniture natural disasters, clone themselves, and summon large creatures...well every battle will be on hell of a challenge.
And Tim, you're making good points and you're not being a d**k about it. Nobody here has the right to tell you to be quiet. The only thing about what you're saying is that it will end up detracting from the ninja experience in favor of more of a heavy survivalist experience. I like that you're pushing for an old style living, in fact my character will the type that hunts for his own food and everything. We do need some more mission variety but ninja are more likley to hunt/stalk people rather than deer.
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Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:47 am
I dont recall anyone telling him to be quiet. Anyways the discussion is getting off topic, as the topic here is purely about where the village will be located. If you want to discuss how the village is designed, how it functions etc. go back to the original reboot thread.
