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divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:18 pm


My parents are big into the churchgoing scene, but it seems to me that they hardly understand anything about their religion, aside from the fact that it is what they were brought up knowing. They can't cite the bible and I'm certain that they have never read any more than the random passages selected by the church once a week.

They constantly consider me to have no faith because I refuse to go to such an institution when I do not believe in the dogma. I don't believe, for example, that Christ is God, nor the value of the ritual of the eucharist. They fall back on the reasoning that church gives them a sense of community, where everyone comes together, and that it gives them time to reflect. To me, this seems like a very weak reason to join a religious organization. My brother is one of the christmas/easter crowd who basically used confirmation as a reason to never go back. I was going to do the same, but left just days before the ceremony. It seemed dishonest to me, to claim submission to a faith that I knew I didn't accept fully, and furthermore, to make a promise to the church I knew I would break- Namely, becoming a member.

This provided a lot of tension, and my family felt that I was somehow agnostic or atheist, when simply, I don't want to be a part of, or make promises to, a system that I don't fully agree with.

Which boils down to this- Is going to church really important? Is the ritual a vital part of knowing God? Is God truly represented through the interpretations of man? And from a christian perspective, how can I word this so that my parents finally understand where I'm coming from?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:39 pm


divineseraph


Which boils down to this- Is going to church really important? Is the ritual a vital part of knowing God? Is God truly represented through the interpretations of man? And from a christian perspective, how can I word this so that my parents finally understand where I'm coming from?

It is important, though it doesn't have to be quite so formal, I think. The early church wasn't that formal, and I think it's really just important for Christians to gather together. It's importance can be seen in other ways in the Bible, I think, especially considering it tells us to forsake the world and bad company. Gathering together is a great way to help those two things happen. Besides that, I've heard a lot of stories of Christians who fall away because they don't have anyone to guide them. I think Christians supporting and helping one another is supposed to help prevent that, so in some cases it could be vital. The church is an imperfect reflection. And the last one depends on what specific Christian beliefs your parents hold. I couldn't really give advice regarding a Catholic, for example.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:57 pm


I personally don't think that its important, my mom almost never went to church, but she remained a catholic her entire life. For most of my younger years, I was a catholic, till I went to a baptist bible camp, which didn't improve my belief more than to the point that people believed in an all powerful being, who was I to disagree with them at the time. Then when I grew up and thought about it, I became agnostic, and even though its part of a contract I sign with the christian school I go to. I don't go to church on Sunday or Wednesday. I see no point in going to something I don't believe in, especially since I have to listen to it every mourning at school.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:03 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
divineseraph


Which boils down to this- Is going to church really important? Is the ritual a vital part of knowing God? Is God truly represented through the interpretations of man? And from a christian perspective, how can I word this so that my parents finally understand where I'm coming from?

It is important, though it doesn't have to be quite so formal, I think. The early church wasn't that formal, and I think it's really just important for Christians to gather together. It's importance can be seen in other ways in the Bible, I think, especially considering it tells us to forsake the world and bad company. Gathering together is a great way to help those two things happen. Besides that, I've heard a lot of stories of Christians who fall away because they don't have anyone to guide them. I think Christians supporting and helping one another is supposed to help prevent that, so in some cases it could be vital. The church is an imperfect reflection. And the last one depends on what specific Christian beliefs your parents hold. I couldn't really give advice regarding a Catholic, for example.


I've heard that the earliest mass was actually a simple meal with a group of people who discussed scripture and theology. There was no real priesthood to speak of, simply discussion. And there was certainly less of this rigorous "Stand, sit, stand, sit, kneel, stand, sit, eat your wafer, stand, go home" business- There was breaking of bread and drinking of wine, and that's where the idea came from. But it's become so corrupted, in my mind, that there's no real learning going on. And that's what religion should be about- Affirming your soul and learning about God through introspection and logic, rather than ritual and dogma.

divineseraph


Semiremis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:11 pm


"They fall back on the reasoning that church gives them a sense of community, where everyone comes together, and that it gives them time to reflect. To me, this seems like a very weak reason to join a religious organization."

That seems like an extremely good reason to me to join a religious organization. Humans are social animals and as much as many people would like to deny it, as a general rule of thumb we do not do too well alone in comparison to how we do together. It's not the only reason to join a church community in my opinion though. If you don't believe then you don't believe.

As far as going to church goes I think that as a Christian it's very important to attend mass (Catholic Christian that is). It's important for that sense of solidarity, for sharing your faith in Christ, for coming together in that truth and continually enriching your life with it.

EDIT: (just throwing this out there)

Hebrews 10:19-25 19 Therefore, brothers, [3] since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:14 pm


It's not nessesary for Christians to go to church. All God wants is to have you back with him. About reciting the bible, not even my pastor can do that. It's too long. I'm suggest going to the early mass as stated above. Though it sounds like you're cathlic (sorry if I spelt it wrong) and I'm not. At our early service we have a christian praise band play.

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caeruleus5765

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:30 pm


Well I'm an outer Christian, which is basically the Christian that worships god outside of church. However, my situation doesn't relate to you because you don't believe. So lets see.

There was a forum in this guild which seemed to believe that people need to be baptized. (Not much help there)

I suppose you can argue that your doing gods work in your daily life, whether you believe in him or not. Thats what church is supposed to help teach. I mean, you are generally a good ethical person aren't you? If your family considers you a really good person you may get away with it.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:50 pm


For reading may I suggest the gospel of St. Thomas, it is a Gnostic gospel and one of my favorites. But within it says basically that you do not have to go a church to worship God.
To me what it comes down to is if you are not comfortable with it then that faith is not for you. But I do understand the problem with having family members that don't understand you and don't even fully grasp their own religious beliefs. To me the absolutely worst thing is people who go to church because to them it looks good but then they lack moral values. But when it comes right down to it, you are going to be hard pressed to change their minds.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:52 pm


divineseraph

Is going to church really important?
Yes because a Church is a body of believers coming together for fellowship, reflection, and learning. It may seem weak but that is actually part of the core since each believer makes up the Body of Christ and by coming together as one, Christ becomes present. That's the ideal anyway. There is scriptural support for this as Semiremis pointed out. The person ministering is supposed to be knowledgeable about the scripture and giving the meaning of the scripture in the Christian context. Though in my experience this is often rare.

Quote:
Is the ritual a vital part of knowing God?
Personally I would say yes because the rituals are designed in such a way for the believer to experience God. In the Eastern Orthodoxy, the sacraments are referred to as the Mysteries because it is through performing these actions that an understanding of God is fostered.
Quote:
Is God truly represented through the interpretations of man?
Depends if the person giving the interpretations has theoria or not. If the person teaching does not know of God then how can they adequately teach about God to others?
Quote:
And from a christian perspective, how can I word this so that my parents finally understand where I'm coming from?
You could tell them that God is calling you to be elsewhere and it would better serve the Church for you to be where God wants you to be. Or this one is kinda insulting but fits with your situation, you don't feel the Holy Spirit at the Church your parents are wanting you to attend.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:58 pm


Semiremis
"They fall back on the reasoning that church gives them a sense of community, where everyone comes together, and that it gives them time to reflect. To me, this seems like a very weak reason to join a religious organization."

That seems like an extremely good reason to me to join a religious organization. Humans are social animals and as much as many people would like to deny it, as a general rule of thumb we do not do too well alone in comparison to how we do together. It's not the only reason to join a church community in my opinion though. If you don't believe then you don't believe.

As far as going to church goes I think that as a Christian it's very important to attend mass (Catholic Christian that is). It's important for that sense of solidarity, for sharing your faith in Christ, for coming together in that truth and continually enriching your life with it.

EDIT: (just throwing this out there)

Hebrews 10:19-25 19 Therefore, brothers, [3] since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.


But does it matter, then, which church or which religion? If the important point is the social aspect, why not join a different church, or simply be an active member of the community, or go to a bunch of parties?

divineseraph


divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:08 pm


rmcdra
divineseraph

Is going to church really important?
Yes because a Church is a body of believers coming together for fellowship, reflection, and learning. It may seem weak but that is actually part of the core since each believer makes up the Body of Christ and by coming together as one, Christ becomes present. That's the ideal anyway. There is scriptural support for this as Semiremis pointed out. The person ministering is supposed to be knowledgeable about the scripture and giving the meaning of the scripture in the Christian context. Though in my experience this is often rare.

Quote:
Is the ritual a vital part of knowing God?
Personally I would say yes because the rituals are designed in such a way for the believer to experience God. In the Eastern Orthodoxy, the sacraments are referred to as the Mysteries because it is through performing these actions that an understanding of God is fostered.
Quote:
Is God truly represented through the interpretations of man?
Depends if the person giving the interpretations has theoria or not. If the person teaching does not know of God then how can they adequately teach about God to others?
Quote:
And from a christian perspective, how can I word this so that my parents finally understand where I'm coming from?
You could tell them that God is calling you to be elsewhere and it would better serve the Church for you to be where God wants you to be. Or this one is kinda insulting but fits with your situation, you don't feel the Holy Spirit at the Church your parents are wanting you to attend.


There is little learning done in church. You can not learn when ritual ties you down. What gets me is the pointless ritual that nobody understands anymore- You chant the chants, stand and sit, eat the bread- But what does it mean? I know that you can find an answer very quickly online, or you may actually know where the ritual comes from. But religion is not supposed to be about the ritual, it's about the connection. And the connection is found as far away from robotic ritual as possible. This was not Jesus' original intent.

How is this? I find no understanding of God by eating the eucharist or chanting the chants- In fact, I feel it devalues the whole reason of being there- Understanding God. I think of it this way- Connection with God is supposed to be on a personal level, through reverberation of the soul. How are we supposed to transform our soul when it is stuck in rituals that have become so far from the original that it's hard to even know what most of them mean? How can you find the truth when you're only allowed to observe through a keyhole?

Exactly.

That's not really true, though. God isn't calling me anywhere. I just don't see God in church. And it's so bad, I doubt they could tell you what Holy Spirit means. I'd bet they know it's something to do with God, but that's about it.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:34 pm


divineseraph

There is little learning done in church. You can not learn when ritual ties you down. What gets me is the pointless ritual that nobody understands anymore- You chant the chants, stand and sit, eat the bread- But what does it mean? I know that you can find an answer very quickly online, or you may actually know where the ritual comes from. But religion is not supposed to be about the ritual, it's about the connection. And the connection is found as far away from robotic ritual as possible. This was not Jesus' original intent.
That's one of the sad things about the Western Church is that most of the meaning behind the rituals has been forgotten. Part of my favoritism toward the Eastern Church, though I'll never be able to be a member since I'm a heretic, is that they still understand the meanings. But yeah I do agree with you, if there is no meaning behind the rituals, then it's just a robotic action that does nothing.

Quote:
How is this? I find no understanding of God by eating the eucharist or chanting the chants- In fact, I feel it devalues the whole reason of being there- Understanding God. I think of it this way- Connection with God is supposed to be on a personal level, through reverberation of the soul. How are we supposed to transform our soul when it is stuck in rituals that have become so far from the original that it's hard to even know what most of them mean? How can you find the truth when you're only allowed to observe through a keyhole?
All I can say is that if it's keeping you from understanding God then drop it. God made Sabbath for man.

Quote:
That's not really true, though. God isn't calling me anywhere. I just don't see God in church. And it's so bad, I doubt they could tell you what Holy Spirit means. I'd bet they know it's something to do with God, but that's about it.
Well technically the Holy Spirit is God in most Christian theologies so if you don't think they would understand it, then just tell them that you don't feel God at that Church.

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Semiremis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:28 pm


divineseraph
rmcdra
divineseraph

Is going to church really important?
Yes because a Church is a body of believers coming together for fellowship, reflection, and learning. It may seem weak but that is actually part of the core since each believer makes up the Body of Christ and by coming together as one, Christ becomes present. That's the ideal anyway. There is scriptural support for this as Semiremis pointed out. The person ministering is supposed to be knowledgeable about the scripture and giving the meaning of the scripture in the Christian context. Though in my experience this is often rare.

Quote:
Is the ritual a vital part of knowing God?
Personally I would say yes because the rituals are designed in such a way for the believer to experience God. In the Eastern Orthodoxy, the sacraments are referred to as the Mysteries because it is through performing these actions that an understanding of God is fostered.
Quote:
Is God truly represented through the interpretations of man?
Depends if the person giving the interpretations has theoria or not. If the person teaching does not know of God then how can they adequately teach about God to others?
Quote:
And from a christian perspective, how can I word this so that my parents finally understand where I'm coming from?
You could tell them that God is calling you to be elsewhere and it would better serve the Church for you to be where God wants you to be. Or this one is kinda insulting but fits with your situation, you don't feel the Holy Spirit at the Church your parents are wanting you to attend.


There is little learning done in church. You can not learn when ritual ties you down. What gets me is the pointless ritual that nobody understands anymore- You chant the chants, stand and sit, eat the bread- But what does it mean? I know that you can find an answer very quickly online, or you may actually know where the ritual comes from. But religion is not supposed to be about the ritual, it's about the connection. And the connection is found as far away from robotic ritual as possible. This was not Jesus' original intent.

How is this? I find no understanding of God by eating the eucharist or chanting the chants- In fact, I feel it devalues the whole reason of being there- Understanding God. I think of it this way- Connection with God is supposed to be on a personal level, through reverberation of the soul. How are we supposed to transform our soul when it is stuck in rituals that have become so far from the original that it's hard to even know what most of them mean? How can you find the truth when you're only allowed to observe through a keyhole?

Exactly.

That's not really true, though. God isn't calling me anywhere. I just don't see God in church. And it's so bad, I doubt they could tell you what Holy Spirit means. I'd bet they know it's something to do with God, but that's about it.


There may be little learning done in church for you, but it may be a place of gathering, of amassing and sharing knowledge for others.

Ritual may tie you down, but it may be enriching and freeing to others.

The rituals may be pointless to you but they may contain a plethora of meaning and value to those who understand them.

Ritual may seem robotic to you, but they may seem full of life to those who actively take part in them.

Your version of things certainly was not what God intended but your version isn't the same version experienced by an active and devout catholic.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:39 pm


I myself believe that "Going to" church is not Biblical. The original Christians gathered together to help one another. They helped with each other's work and then they would have a meal and they would discuss their Faith. They didn't do this on the Sabbath, because you were not supposed to work or travel on the Sabbath.

There was a leader that would make rounds to see that everyone was well, and each community had a "pastor" that people could take questions to.

"Going to" church didn't start until the persecutions pushed believers underground. Christians set up shrines as markers where people could gather, or went into the catacombs and graveyards because that was the one place Romans would not go. They started to meet on the Sabbath, because the authorities understood that the Christians were beholden to so many of the Judaic traditions, the Sabbath rules notwithstanding.

When the Romans, particularly Constantine recognized Christianity as a religion, the wheels were set in motion to get the whole thing "organized". Constantine incorporated many of the traditions of the sect of Mithras, as he was convinced that, Mithras and the God of the Christians were the same. He set up the first counsels to set a specific cannon. Constantine provided the way for the church to become institutionalized, which came to be known as the Roman Catholic Church.

The Early RCC began to prohibit any writting that they could not agree on, even scriptures that Jesus Himself quoted from. One of the most notable and sad exclusions that was made was the book of Enoch... anyway, that's getting off-topic....

My point is, most pastors don't know their history, many can not even tell you what books were written in Hebrew, or Greek, or Aramaic. People go in to these institutions to learn, and they just get quoted to out of the Bible.

If you really want the Church to mean something, you need to get out there with fellow believers, and DO something, not sit on your a**. That is where fellowship comes in, and that was what the Church is supposed to be about. You don't fellowship if you walk into a building, sit down, listen to a half hour of someone telling you what and what not to do, and then leaving.

A church is supposed to be a family that cares, and works for each other. There are only a very few of those left, and they still have some improvements to make.

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Semiremis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:50 pm


Quote:
When the Romans, particularly Constantine recognized Christianity as a religion, the wheels were set in motion to get the whole thing "organized". Constantine incorporated many of the traditions of the sect of Mithras, as he was convinced that, Mithras and the God of the Christians were the same. He set up the first counsels to set a specific cannon. Constantine provided the way for the church to become institutionalized, which came to be known as the Roman Catholic Church.

The Early RCC began to prohibit any writting that they could not agree on, even scriptures that Jesus Himself quoted from. One of the most notable and sad exclusions that was made was the book of Enoch... anyway, that's getting off-topic....

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