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Are morals universal?
Of course
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
No way!
35%
 35%  [ 12 ]
Some are...
44%
 44%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 34


xxEverBluexx

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:53 pm


This is an except from a hilarious Christian book I read today that had me thinking about it:
Quote:
Chapter 13

College Daze

I was sitting in a college class discussing other cultures, when I inadvertently used a naughty word that brought the entire class to a halt.

The word was uncivilized.

Specifically, I had referred to the cultural custom , formerly practiced in India, of burning alive the living widow of a deceased male.

“It was uncivilized, and the British were right to put an end to it,” I said.

All heck broke loose.

“That is ethnocentric!”

“That presumes one people has the right to impose its own morality on another people!”

“The term ‘uncivilized’ is a value judgment!”

I then did another bad thing. I stuck to my position.

“I believe in value judgments. World War II was, in large part, a huge value judgment. The Nazis and the Fascists had a morally inferior position that allowed unprovoked aggression and the wholesale slaughter of entire groups of people. The United States and the Allied armies were right to stop them by force..”

Oodles more heck broke loose.

“So are you saying that all Americans were morally superior to all Germans or Italians?” huffed one student.
“No, but I am saying that the position of America was morally superior to what Hitler stood for.”

“I disagree with Hitler’s position, but I don’t think I would use the term ‘morally superior,’” chimed in another student. “I would be comfortable saying that I personally disagreed with him, but I don’t see how we can say we were ‘morally right’ and he was ‘morally wrong’ because morality is a culturally determined thing. It isn’t as though there is a single, objective standard that exists out there.”

I am not making this stuff up. This exchange actually took place. On college campuses today, it is entirely possible to find lots of students who are unwilling to say that Adolph Hitler was morally wrong by any universal standard. They’ll be quick to say they disagree with him, that they are repulsed by him, that they would have resisted him–but they can’t say he was “wrong” by any objective, transcendent moral law. All that exists is individual preference.

“Let’s do a role play,” I suggested. “Let’s pretend that I am a guy named Heinrich Himmler and you are all Jews. I have a gun, and you do not. We are in Germany in 1942. It is the official position of the German Government that Jews are an inferior race who must be eliminated. If morality is determined by the culture, then I would be on morally defensible ground to put a bullet in your brain. Convince me not to shoot, or I will open fire on you one by one.”

There was a stunned silence. Finally, one student spoke up.

“I would try to persuade him that Jews were not inferior.”

“I’m unconvinced,” I replied.

BLAM!

One down, twenty to go.

“I would say that I personally disagree with taking an innocent life,” ventured another.

“Your disagreement has been noted,” I replied.

BLAM!

I continued to pick them off, one by one, because not one student could articulate any reason other than some form of the statement, “I disagree with you.”

Finally, an exasperated student snapped, “I don’t think it is fair for you to throw these kinds of hypothetical situations at us.”

“it isn’t hypothetical,” I
retorted. “there really was a guy named Himmler, and he worked under Hitler, and eliminating Jews was in his job description. And you can’t even tell the guy that what he is doing is wrong, because you don’t believe in any objective standard of right and wrong. All you have is preferences. But he has his own preferences. And he prefers to have you dead.”

BLAM!

“Do you realize the enormity of what you believe?” I asked. “You are saying that throwing people in an oven or not throwing them in an oven are nothing more than issues of personal preference. It is precisely that kind of thinking that makes genocide possible. Someone please give Himmler a reason not to pull the trigger again. Even if he ignores you, give him something better than ‘I disagree with your preference.’”

I finally ended up facing a young woman who looked me in the eye and said, “God will judge you for every innocent life you take.”

That was one of the few rational thoughts uttered that day.

The period ended and the class was dismissed.

As I made my way toward my next class, a student ran up to me. It was the guy who complained that my “hypothetical” situation was unfair.

“I really do believe that Hitler was wrong,” he said, his brow furrowed in dismay.

“Was he wrong by any universally binding standard” Or do you just mean you personally don’t like what he did?”

The poor guy was in agony. Every commonsense impulse in him told him to agree that Hitler was a moral atrocity. His own conscience was almost audibly screaming at him to agree that throwing babies into an oven is a horrific moral outrage that is a universal WRONG! But years of university nonsense had persuaded him that only a cretin believed that some things are always right and some things are always wrong. In the end, all he could do was tell me that personally, he really, really, really disagreed with Hitler.

He kept walking with me.

Finally, I turned to him and said, “You know deep down that genocide is wrong. You know it because in your heart you are better than your creed.”

We parted company on that note.

What do you think? Are all morals personal? Or are there some things that are just plain wrong? And off-topic, would you want to read a book where a study guide question asks you if it's irritating that the author doesn't have to put anything in the study guide? xd (he does that. I adore this author rofl whee )
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:28 am


Yes and no. It depends on the context. Guessing from the topic, though, I'm assuming you mean are there morals on a wide scale. I believe there are commonalities in morals across the board, but I've questioned whether I want to call them "universal" since it has the connotation to many as applicable regardless of the circumstance.

A1Saucy

Devoted Codger


Artto

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:26 am


I think morals do stem from culture, except for the most basic ones, which are about cooperation and preservation of human life (which are often times more what is good for your "tribe"). I would go as far as to say that those are actually our natural instincts.

In most of Islamic culture, it is immoral for a woman to not wear a scarf over her head. I doubt anyone would say that was intrinsic to humans.

I am totally against any moral absolutism, because discerning right and wrong is not as simple as reading a rule book. It is complex and varies from situation to situation. I have yet to come across moral a rule, that would not have an exception.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:01 am


Some morals are culturally formed, yes. I believe that there are some particular rules in different cultures that are considered moral or immoral in that culture, and I have no problem with that.

However, there is a reason that the United Nations and other international organizations attempt to make a universally binding code of human rights. There are universal rights; a universal code we should all follow.

I just don't think that every moral belief is an objective standard. For example, I don't follow many Jewish rules about diet because I am not Jewish. I fail to see how they would be morally superior to me for following those rules, though. On the other hand, rape and genocide are NEVER acceptable. THAT is a universally binding moral, as far as I'm concerned.

Ivy Lana Lee

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Itachi_Hare

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:04 pm


I must say that I completely agree with Artto... Even genocide can be morally correct at times. The Holocaust was not one of those times, but if there was a race of people in which every man woamn and child were harmful to the rest of us as a species because of say an extremely violent mental disorder or mutant gene that made them nearly unstoppable and unconvincible to stop hurting others, in that case genocide would be the only good option. Even rape and murder can be necesary... For instance murder: self defense, defense of ones tribe, to stop an unchangeably violent person ect... Rape: if that is the only way to reproduce... many animals have to rape their mates in order to reproduce.... and i know using animals as an example probably isn't very convincing, but that might be how it was way back in our earliest days. For the most part these things are morally wrong today but there are circumstances in which they are required and therefore morally right.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:38 pm


Itachi_Hare
I must say that I completely agree with Artto... Even genocide can be morally correct at times. The Holocaust was not one of those times, but if there was a race of people in which every man woman and child were harmful to the rest of us as a species because of say an extremely violent mental disorder or mutant gene that made them nearly unstoppable and unconvincible to stop hurting others, in that case genocide would be the only good option.

Who else thought of zombies? xd

Shiori Miko


xxEverBluexx

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:11 pm


I think there are some moral absolutes. If it's all based on personal perspective, then basically whoever has the most power makes the rules. Plus, just because something becomes a necessary evil doesn't mean it's still not evil. In Itachi's genocide scenario, despite it being necessary, would it be a good thing to kill those people? Good=/=necessary.

And what would you say to convince him not to shoot?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:19 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
I think there are some moral absolutes. If it's all based on personal perspective, then basically whoever has the most power makes the rules. Plus, just because something becomes a necessary evil doesn't mean it's still not evil. In Itachi's genocide scenario, despite it being necessary, would it be a good thing to kill those people? Good=/=necessary.

And what would you say to convince him not to shoot?


Do you think "God will judge you for every innocent life you take." would really work in this situation? This question doesn't have an answer, he'd shoot you in any case. If you ask me, I'd rather try and take the gun razz

Artto


xxEverBluexx

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:05 pm


Artto
xxEternallyBluexx
I think there are some moral absolutes. If it's all based on personal perspective, then basically whoever has the most power makes the rules. Plus, just because something becomes a necessary evil doesn't mean it's still not evil. In Itachi's genocide scenario, despite it being necessary, would it be a good thing to kill those people? Good=/=necessary.

And what would you say to convince him not to shoot?


Do you think "God will judge you for every innocent life you take." would really work in this situation? This question doesn't have an answer, he'd shoot you in any case. If you ask me, I'd rather try and take the gun razz

If you believe in God, that is the gun. What's worse then suffering forever for what you've done?

...I'd probably try and take the gun too...or consider escape...but that's beside the point! The point is that if there's moral absolutes, then there's a reason for those moral absolutes, and it goes deeper then brain chemistry, evolution, society, etc. We have a heart and morals because someone created us to be good, and that someone will take of people like Himmler and Hitler.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:29 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
Artto
xxEternallyBluexx
I think there are some moral absolutes. If it's all based on personal perspective, then basically whoever has the most power makes the rules. Plus, just because something becomes a necessary evil doesn't mean it's still not evil. In Itachi's genocide scenario, despite it being necessary, would it be a good thing to kill those people? Good=/=necessary.

And what would you say to convince him not to shoot?


Do you think "God will judge you for every innocent life you take." would really work in this situation? This question doesn't have an answer, he'd shoot you in any case. If you ask me, I'd rather try and take the gun razz

If you believe in God, that is the gun. What's worse then suffering forever for what you've done?

...I'd probably try and take the gun too...or consider escape...but that's beside the point! The point is that if there's moral absolutes, then there's a reason for those moral absolutes, and it goes deeper then brain chemistry, evolution, society, etc. We have a heart and morals because someone created us to be good, and that someone will take of people like Himmler and Hitler.
If that's the case then what about sociopaths and psycopaths? How did they come to be? Hitler was a wacko but he thought what he was doing was the right thing. The argument about God punishing him wouldn't have effected him because he didn't think he was killing innocents. He thought he was destroying a plague. I believe waht he did was evil but do I believe that because it's a moral truth or because I was raised in a society that condems it as such? Difficult to answer. What would I believe if I'd been raised in a world where Hitler won?

And about the students in the scenario you presented, if they didn't know that Himmler was a very real and high ranking Nazi they probably don't belong in a college classroom. It's not like he was an obscure figure.

CalledTheRaven

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brainnsoup
Crew

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:44 pm


Shiori Miko
Itachi_Hare
I must say that I completely agree with Artto... Even genocide can be morally correct at times. The Holocaust was not one of those times, but if there was a race of people in which every man woman and child were harmful to the rest of us as a species because of say an extremely violent mental disorder or mutant gene that made them nearly unstoppable and unconvincible to stop hurting others, in that case genocide would be the only good option.

Who else thought of zombies? xd
Hahaha, right when I read that, I thought, "Please don't let me be the one to shatter the serious tone of this thread by bringing up zombies..."
Braaaaaiiins

On a serious note, I do disagree with that author judging people as uncivilized or inferior in some way. Even if there were absolute universal truths on good and evil, just and unjust, fun stuff like that (and I don't think there are), who's to say that we have the right answer? Isn't it arrogant to assume that we are the civilized ones? I think if we were judged by people in countries we deem uncivilized they would probably take issue with our tendency to treat are elderly with disrespect and as if they are burdens on society, or tendency to end a marriage so quickly and easily, or the fact that many of us eat meat and then squirm and cry when we see animals being killed.
It is ethnocentric to assume that we are the civilized ones.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:05 am


brainnsoup
Shiori Miko
Itachi_Hare
I must say that I completely agree with Artto... Even genocide can be morally correct at times. The Holocaust was not one of those times, but if there was a race of people in which every man woman and child were harmful to the rest of us as a species because of say an extremely violent mental disorder or mutant gene that made them nearly unstoppable and unconvincible to stop hurting others, in that case genocide would be the only good option.

Who else thought of zombies? xd
Hahaha, right when I read that, I thought, "Please don't let me be the one to shatter the serious tone of this thread by bringing up zombies..."
Braaaaaiiins

On a serious note, I do disagree with that author judging people as uncivilized or inferior in some way. Even if there were absolute universal truths on good and evil, just and unjust, fun stuff like that (and I don't think there are), who's to say that we have the right answer? Isn't it arrogant to assume that we are the civilized ones? I think if we were judged by people in countries we deem uncivilized they would probably take issue with our tendency to treat are elderly with disrespect and as if they are burdens on society, or tendency to end a marriage so quickly and easily, or the fact that many of us eat meat and then squirm and cry when we see animals being killed.
It is ethnocentric to assume that we are the civilized ones.


Me too!! xd I love zombies....

Ivy Lana Lee

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Itachi_Hare

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:45 am


Ivy Lana Lee
brainnsoup
Shiori Miko
Itachi_Hare
I must say that I completely agree with Artto... Even genocide can be morally correct at times. The Holocaust was not one of those times, but if there was a race of people in which every man woman and child were harmful to the rest of us as a species because of say an extremely violent mental disorder or mutant gene that made them nearly unstoppable and unconvincible to stop hurting others, in that case genocide would be the only good option.

Who else thought of zombies? xd
Hahaha, right when I read that, I thought, "Please don't let me be the one to shatter the serious tone of this thread by bringing up zombies..."
Braaaaaiiins

On a serious note, I do disagree with that author judging people as uncivilized or inferior in some way. Even if there were absolute universal truths on good and evil, just and unjust, fun stuff like that (and I don't think there are), who's to say that we have the right answer? Isn't it arrogant to assume that we are the civilized ones? I think if we were judged by people in countries we deem uncivilized they would probably take issue with our tendency to treat are elderly with disrespect and as if they are burdens on society, or tendency to end a marriage so quickly and easily, or the fact that many of us eat meat and then squirm and cry when we see animals being killed.
It is ethnocentric to assume that we are the civilized ones.


Me too!! xd I love zombies....
Seriously guys, who doesn't love zombies?! If they end up being put up for genocide I plan on going all Shawn of the Dead and keeping one in my basement... just because it would be awesome...

I agree Brainnsoup.... i think that in itself proves that there isn't a universal right and wrong.... for instance when I was reading the book "Case for the Creator" by Lee Strobel, which honestly I did not find very convincing, I had a few thoughts that went along the lines of "what if everyone is wrong and the only thing God/the gods consider a sin is something we think is completely inconsequintial, take for instance walking on grass which even though it is unable to communicate or move happens to be the single most intelligent species on the planet. I'm fairly certain that almost every living thing has walked on grass plenty of times (except maybe desert peoples who aren't near any) so therefore we've all commited the most horrid attrocity there is.....
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:20 pm


Itachi_Hare
Ivy Lana Lee
brainnsoup
Shiori Miko
Itachi_Hare
I must say that I completely agree with Artto... Even genocide can be morally correct at times. The Holocaust was not one of those times, but if there was a race of people in which every man woman and child were harmful to the rest of us as a species because of say an extremely violent mental disorder or mutant gene that made them nearly unstoppable and unconvincible to stop hurting others, in that case genocide would be the only good option.

Who else thought of zombies? xd
Hahaha, right when I read that, I thought, "Please don't let me be the one to shatter the serious tone of this thread by bringing up zombies..."
Braaaaaiiins

On a serious note, I do disagree with that author judging people as uncivilized or inferior in some way. Even if there were absolute universal truths on good and evil, just and unjust, fun stuff like that (and I don't think there are), who's to say that we have the right answer? Isn't it arrogant to assume that we are the civilized ones? I think if we were judged by people in countries we deem uncivilized they would probably take issue with our tendency to treat are elderly with disrespect and as if they are burdens on society, or tendency to end a marriage so quickly and easily, or the fact that many of us eat meat and then squirm and cry when we see animals being killed.
It is ethnocentric to assume that we are the civilized ones.


Me too!! xd I love zombies....
Seriously guys, who doesn't love zombies?! If they end up being put up for genocide I plan on going all Shawn of the Dead and keeping one in my basement... just because it would be awesome...

I agree Brainnsoup.... i think that in itself proves that there isn't a universal right and wrong.... for instance when I was reading the book "Case for the Creator" by Lee Strobel, which honestly I did not find very convincing, I had a few thoughts that went along the lines of "what if everyone is wrong and the only thing God/the gods consider a sin is something we think is completely inconsequintial, take for instance walking on grass which even though it is unable to communicate or move happens to be the single most intelligent species on the planet. I'm fairly certain that almost every living thing has walked on grass plenty of times (except maybe desert peoples who aren't near any) so therefore we've all commited the most horrid attrocity there is.....
D: Not me. Zombies freak me the hell out.
I love zombie media though. World War Z anyone?

brainnsoup
Crew

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xxEverBluexx

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:31 pm


Itachi_Hare
Ivy Lana Lee
brainnsoup
Shiori Miko
Itachi_Hare
I must say that I completely agree with Artto... Even genocide can be morally correct at times. The Holocaust was not one of those times, but if there was a race of people in which every man woman and child were harmful to the rest of us as a species because of say an extremely violent mental disorder or mutant gene that made them nearly unstoppable and unconvincible to stop hurting others, in that case genocide would be the only good option.

Who else thought of zombies? xd
Hahaha, right when I read that, I thought, "Please don't let me be the one to shatter the serious tone of this thread by bringing up zombies..."
Braaaaaiiins

On a serious note, I do disagree with that author judging people as uncivilized or inferior in some way. Even if there were absolute universal truths on good and evil, just and unjust, fun stuff like that (and I don't think there are), who's to say that we have the right answer? Isn't it arrogant to assume that we are the civilized ones? I think if we were judged by people in countries we deem uncivilized they would probably take issue with our tendency to treat are elderly with disrespect and as if they are burdens on society, or tendency to end a marriage so quickly and easily, or the fact that many of us eat meat and then squirm and cry when we see animals being killed.
It is ethnocentric to assume that we are the civilized ones.


Me too!! xd I love zombies....
Seriously guys, who doesn't love zombies?! If they end up being put up for genocide I plan on going all Shawn of the Dead and keeping one in my basement... just because it would be awesome...

I agree Brainnsoup.... i think that in itself proves that there isn't a universal right and wrong.... for instance when I was reading the book "Case for the Creator" by Lee Strobel, which honestly I did not find very convincing, I had a few thoughts that went along the lines of "what if everyone is wrong and the only thing God/the gods consider a sin is something we think is completely inconsequintial, take for instance walking on grass which even though it is unable to communicate or move happens to be the single most intelligent species on the planet. I'm fairly certain that almost every living thing has walked on grass plenty of times (except maybe desert peoples who aren't near any) so therefore we've all commited the most horrid attrocity there is.....

Someone needs to put a zombie thread in the spa forum. xd

Well if it was something obscure, we should see evidence it's wrong. As it is, a lot of the things outlined in the Bible have some sort of negative psychological or physical impact, so the evidence is many times, in the consequences.

@brainn: Why does it matter if we're arrogant then? What makes it wrong to be arrogant if there's no universal morality? If no behavior is wrong, then anyone can be an arrogant jerk if they feel like it.
Plus you're assuming we're judging people we just want to feel self-righteous towards. Jesus said we're supposed to clean up our act and love our neighbor first. So if you're telling someone their behavior is wrong, you're supposed to be doing it because you care about them.

@Raven: You might actually. There was an underground that recognized Hitler was wrong.



Note: I'm gonna say this: Hitler was morally in the wrong. Not just in 'my opinion'. He was just plain wrong, no matter if he thought he was right or not. If he was alive, I'd pray for him, but what he did was still EVIL, and that should be recognized.
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