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 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:44 pm
I always used to think that chicken was a form of meat, but recently I realized otherwise.
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,2195154/Are-chicken-and-fish-considered-meat-and-not-allowed-with-dairy.html
According to the bible, one is not allowed to boil a baby in its mother's milk. If you think about it, a mother chicken does not give milk. Therefore, technically speaking, one would be aloud to eat chicken and milk together with out it being a violation of the Torah.
So, why then is chicken thought of to be meat? For a long time people have considered it as such, and because it was commonly thought of as meat people could accidentally make a mistake and eat meat with milk if they were to eat chicken with milk. Therefore, the sages- who were commanded to protect the Torah's laws- declared chicken to be a form of meat, and thus not aloud to be eaten with dairy.
There was never this confusion with fish, so it has and is considered parav.
Nowadays it is a common halacha that chicken and meat may not be eaten together.
If you think about the reason, though, it is because one may confuse it to be a form of meat. Why then is it okay to eat fake bacon bits, or have soy milk while eating meat? Bacon bits resemble actual bacon, and soy milk resembles milk, but these are deemed okay.
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:54 pm
Ok... I have been preaching this idea for quite some time.
Show me a chicken that gives milk, & I'll stop putting it in my chowder.
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:56 pm
Shalom_Zeev I always used to think that chicken was a form of meat, but recently I realized otherwise. http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,2195154/Are-chicken-and-fish-considered-meat-and-not-allowed-with-dairy.html According to the bible, one is not allowed to boil a baby in its mother's milk. If you think about it, a mother chicken does not give milk. Therefore, technically speaking, one would be aloud to eat chicken and milk together with out it being a violation of the Torah. So, why then is chicken thought of to be meat? For a long time people have considered it as such, and because it was commonly thought of as meat people could accidentally make a mistake and eat meat with milk if they were to eat chicken with milk. Therefore, the sages- who were commanded to protect the Torah's laws- declared chicken to be a form of meat, and thus not aloud to be eaten with dairy. There was never this confusion with fish, so it has and is considered parav. Nowadays it is a common halacha that chicken and meat may not be eaten together. If you think about the reason, though, it is because one may confuse it to be a form of meat. Why then is it okay to eat fake bacon bits, or have soy milk while eating meat? Bacon bits resemble actual bacon, and soy milk resembles milk, but these are deemed okay. You know, I've always had that notion cross my mind, but I figured it was all meat and all dairy prohibited together.... So technically, I could have a turkey and cheese sandwich? Or steak and mashed potatoes with milk? Such a weird concept, actually....
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Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:23 pm
Technically DP, if you eat steak and buttery mashed potatoes, they end up in your stomach together at the same time and in you'll break kosher that way.
How much time should pass before you go from milk to meat? the sages have been arguing that for centuries I'm afraid.
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:50 am
Chicken+milk was originally okay.
The issue was that chicken is cooked and eaten in many of the same ways as meat, or at least was in the time of the Gemara. Due to this possibility of confusion, the rabbis declared it forbidden to eat chicken with milk, too.
But many people still eat milk sooner after eating chicken than meat (for example, waiting 3 hours after chicken when they wait 6 for other meats.)
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:49 am
Meat versus Fowl:
It's what the rabbinic sages refer to as building a fence around the Torah. Fowl looks so much like meat that they lumped them together because one Jew seeing another eating, say, a chicken-and-cheese enchilada would maybe think, "Oh, if that person is eating meat and fowl together, and they're a very observant and pious person, then it must be okay. There must be a rabbinic heter (leniency) that I don't know about." Then they could go out and eat meat with dairy. Also, if a non-Jew sees a Jew eating a turkeyburger with cheese, they could think, "See, that Jew is eating meat with dairy. Jews don't keep their own Torah. They are a faithless and irreverent people." It could create a very bad impression of Jews, of Judaism, and of (G*D forbid) Hashem for having the poor judgment to choose such a people, who don't even care about his Torah! So, while it's annoying, it is a rabbinic ruling.
A Jew can (I regret to say) disobey the Torah and Talmud and still remain a Jew, albeit an unbservant one, so it's... well, it's not fine, but it's just a fact, if they choose to eat dairy with fowl in keeping with Torah but not with Talmudic ruling. However, a convert cannot be considered a true convert unless they take on the whole of rabbinic law as well as the whole of the Torah, without putting their own conversion into doubt. What's worse, if a convert's conversion is put into doubt, all other conversions by that same rabbi will also be put into doubt, because clearly he couldn't adequately judge a conversion candidate's sincerity and commitment to living a Torah life. I've got a friend whose conversion was put into doubt through the actions of a different convert, and she is still -- after twenty years since the event -- under scrutiny, as the whole Jewish community watches to see if she will revert. So please, if you are a convert or potential convert, do all your fellow converts a favor: don't convert at all if you intend to still eat fowl with dairy.
Fish versus Meat:
Actually, the stricter Sephardim won't eat fish with either milk or meat, though they'll serve it at the same meal. You have your fish, then the plates are cleared away and you have your milk or meat on different plates. However, you can use your milk plates or your meat plates for fish -- just not at the same time that there are milk products or meat products on them. You can even cook fish in the same vessels that you use for either meat or milk, just not at the same time. (I don't hold by this ruling, for the record. I will NOT give up my tuna casserole or my lox and cream cheese.)
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:12 am
So Divash, even though it is not in the Torah that chicken is not allowed with dairy, it is just as much a law because it is in the Talmud. That is an interesting way to look at it because i was sorta starting to see it just as a common halacha.
But still, why are bacon bits or soy milk with meat okay? Isn't that a similar concept?
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:39 am
http://jewneric.com/the-six-degrees-of-kosher-bacon/2008/01/15/
It all says parve
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:43 am
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Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:10 am
Funny, I'd always heard Chicken was Parve and just wondered about Turkey.
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Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:24 pm
Turkey is a bird just like chicken so I don't see any reason for them to be in different categories
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:32 am
Shalom_Zeev So Divash, even though it is not in the Torah that chicken is not allowed with dairy, it is just as much a law because it is in the Talmud. That is an interesting way to look at it because i was sorta starting to see it just as a common halacha. But still, why are bacon bits or soy milk with meat okay? Isn't that a similar concept? "Halachah" is law, therefore must be obeyed, whether it comes directly from Torah, or was deduced from Torah principles by our Talmudic sages. I think the word you're looking for is "minhag," custom. Bacon bits and soy milk are okay, basically, because the Talmud was closed (can't be added to) before those were created. Also, they are plant-based products, always parve. Turkey and chicken are animal-based and are NOT in the category of fish, and therefore they are considered meat. I think this is correct, anyway. CYLOR (Consult Your Local Orthodox Rabbi) or "Ask a rabbi" on http://www.chabad.org or another website maintained by a crew of Torah-observant rabbanim.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:52 am
Divash Shalom_Zeev So Divash, even though it is not in the Torah that chicken is not allowed with dairy, it is just as much a law because it is in the Talmud. That is an interesting way to look at it because i was sorta starting to see it just as a common halacha. But still, why are bacon bits or soy milk with meat okay? Isn't that a similar concept? "Halachah" is law, therefore must be obeyed, whether it comes directly from Torah, or was deduced from Torah principles by our Talmudic sages. I think the word you're looking for is "minhag," custom. Bacon bits and soy milk are okay, basically, because the Talmud was closed (can't be added to) before those were created. Also, they are plant-based products, always parve. Turkey and chicken are animal-based and are NOT in the category of fish, and therefore they are considered meat. I think this is correct, anyway. CYLOR (Consult Your Local Orthodox Rabbi) or "Ask a rabbi" on http://www.chabad.org or another website maintained by a crew of Torah-observant rabbanim. Halacha is the law of the rabbis which are merely suggestions that rabbis make to help Jews keep torah better. Which is wahy they should be followed in truth. I say this since one of the 613 laws says that mortals cannot add to the law of god. Also your right on us Spanish jews and the like about the milk and fish thing. But we mainly do that if there will be meat served later on. Their are many Sephradic recipes that call for fish and milk products to be cooked together. And many of them taste awesome. Fricasay is a good example. And so is fish chowder. So yummy. And also many of us love anchovy pizza. I hate it though. My dad is crazy for it.
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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:55 am
Actually if plants have any bugs that are not the kosher kind (grasshoppers, crickets, locusts) are none kosher.
Also there is askmoses.com
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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:57 am
3) Morning Star Veggie Breakfast Bacon: Morning Star’s veggie bacon has the smell, taste and even appearance of bacon. Though the texture is distinctly soy, Morning Star’s meatless bacon option is ideal for making kosher versions of the Cubano sandwich and is probably the best vegetarian option on the market.
4) Bacos: These crunchy little crouton-like bits are packed with chemically reconstituted bacon flavoring that is so tasty you will be willing to overlook the fact that the flavor was manufactured in New Jersey. Bacos are an ideal addition to salads and other recipes calling for bacon flavor.
5) Pastrami: The most sensual of the salt-cured meats, pastrami is seasoned in a manner that gives it a salty taste similar to bacon. Because pastrami is a very fatty cut of meat, it also fries just like bacon. Many kosher restaurants use this as an alternative for BLT’s and bacon burgers.
6) Beef Fry: The Rolls Royce of kosher bacon substitutes. Beef Fry is made by a number of different companies. Made from a cut of meat that is almost identical to that of bacon’s, it fries like bacon, tastes like bacon, and looks like bacon. Beef Fry has a huge amount of versatility and can substitute for bacon in any recipe.
This is all so true.
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