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 Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:55 pm
Dear GGSA,
I've run into countless threads recently here that always have the disclaimer, "this is just my opinion, and everyone else is allowed to have their opinions, too, but this is mine, so I hope I don't offend", or something to that effect. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for free speech, but we live in a democracy. Ignorance simply cannot be tolerated for this society to function correctly.
That's why it really, really bothers me to read posts that say "it's okay because it's their opinion" when referring to people's stance against gay marriage. I think we've forgotten what an opinion really is. Allow me to explain.
"I like green better than yellow." This is not an opinion at all, but rather, a personal preference in colors.
"Green is good, yellow is bad, end of story." This is an example of a statement, and actually, not well explained or well-founded. This is called by philosophers, "mere belief", because it has no grounds for correctness in the world.
"Green signals health in most plants, while yellow may point to a disease, or a lack in minerals." This is an informed statement. From this, we may then opine, "Well, then it only makes sense that I would prefer green to yellow, as far as plants go." This is an informed opinion.
Informed opinions are what democracy is founded on.
So naturally, I have problems with posts like "Well, it's okay if he says gay marriage is wrong, because it's his opinion." Because it's not. And it's not okay for him to be saying that either.
It's like saying, "Snakes are evil 'cause they look like Satan in the bush." That's absolutely ridiculous. Anyone who has been around snakes know that most are reclusive creatures that avoid humans at all costs, are natural to certain places, and play an important part in the ecosystem. So, considering that, the "snakes are evil" statement must therefore be false.
"Gay marriage is wrong" and "Bisexuals don't exist" are not opinions. They are statements, just like "The world is flat," and "The sun revolves around the earth," are statements. And every one of these is false. Therefore, they should not exist.
So please, please, don't let me hear that terrible lukewarm reply that "It's their opinion." There are things worth getting inflamed over. I'd say that for a Gay-Straight Alliance, the right to legally recognized marriage for half its members should be one of them.
Love and Vale,
~Leavaros Dapple
EDIT: "I think Fruits Basket is amazing because of the characters, the storyline, and the art!" This is an opinion.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:16 am
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Not their own facts.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:06 pm
Thanks, PC. And Miss Sarah, I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean.... But thanks for posting! biggrin
Love and Vale,
-LD
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:06 pm
Yeah I get what you're saying but they're facts based on the way they were taught and the way that they live their own lives.
For instance, we believe that homosexuality isn't a bad thing. We believe it's natural because, for homosexuals, that feeling has always been there whether we admitted that to ourselves or not. That's fact for us. Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong based on a book that probably was written based on someone's (or a group of people's) opinion on homosexuality, etc. That book is incorporated into the lives of Christians, and their opinion is based on another person's interpretation of that book. That's fact for them. But our facts or statements are based on opinion. We believe that homosexuality is natural, so we think we are just. They believe that homosexuality is a sin, so they think they are just. And truth in matters like this are, in itself, in the eye of the beholder.
Hopefully, I got my opinion on the matter across correctly. (And I had to stop myself from going on and on cause I could probably write a book on something like this if I could collect my thoughts well enough haha)
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Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:04 am
I think what you mean is that their interpretation of homosexuality as a part of society differs. But the fact remains that most, if not all, gay people will tell you that they did not choose to be gay. Certainly I didn't. But people don't want to listen sometimes.
And need I remind you that the Church doesn't have a very good track record for "accepting the truth"? Remember Galileo's Heliocentric Theory? When he tried enlightening the Church, they called him evil, and mad, and flat-out wrong. Of course, he wasn't any of those things--he was brilliant and courageous and completely right.
There's no point in wondering how far along science would be right now if they hadn't martyred him, and his work, for several hundred years. There's the same amount of logic to their actions as those of the modern day Christian church rejecting evolution, which is to say none whatsoever. Because if people studied it, they would realize that it is unquestionably right, and rather simple, too. Just like homophobes living among gay people would realize that we aren't evil, and that it is natural, for us at least.
And did you know that there are still people who "believe" the world is only ~4000 years old, despite how ancient we know the world to be, through carbon dating fossils?
I guess my point is rather simple, too. One plus one does not equal three no matter how much anyone "believes" it to be. And this misconception should be cleared up quickly, before "two" becomes the next Galileo.
Love and Vale,
~Leavaros Dapple
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Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:42 pm
I must agree with Aku. What they say may not be truth. But for them, this is their opinion, and this is their truth. Most people against gay marriage have had this concept of it being wrong engraved in their minds from the start. And so have the generations before them.
And also we believe homosexuality and gay marriage to be normal and fine. That's still just an opinion too. It cannot be proven. And nor can their opinions.
I'm sorry if it's ignorant to think that way.
But part of freedom of speech really is the right to be wrong. It's not, "You can have an opinion as long as it's founded on fact."
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Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:15 pm
Quote: But part of freedom of speech really is the right to be wrong. The right to free speech does not entitle ignorance. I have no problem with opinions. But when they impede the processes of truth, I take serious offense. "Their truth." You realize that it is a contradiction of words, right? Truth is not owned, it simply is. And their can only be one uncontradicted truth about a certain thing. Such as "homosexuality exists". Everything beyond that point is rather gray. But consider people in the '60s who said that interracial marriage was wrong. They had no fact, no reason for believing this--what they had was a Bible verse from Leviticus talking about "sowing two seeds of different plants in the same field". I have countless examples, but I think this is the silliest. People need a solid reason why something is wrong before they start saying it is wrong. To do any less is simply foolish. And again, I'm forced to wonder where we would be now if people would stop throwing bible verses around and covering their eyes and ears while their tongues flap ceaselessly about what is "wrong" about society. Love and Vale, -Leavaros Dapple
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:52 am
Well in theory.. there is evolution. There hasn't really been any prof of anything. It's a good theory though. It's like creationism. It hasn't been proven but it is in a sense, a good theory depending on how your believes go. Our thoughts form beliefs based on things that we think are facts. Facts and truth in things like gay marriage are all based on opinion and belief.
What I'm trying to make a point in is, everyone has their own truth. Even though we don't chose to be gay and we don't feel there is really anything wrong with it, it's still something we believe based on what our feelings tell us. And it's the same for Christians. And even though some are a bit psycho when it comes to homosexuals, we have no right to force truth on anyone. Nobody has a right to force their own truth on anyone. If they wish to walk around blind as a bat, then let them.
Whether we be right or wrong or vise-versa, it makes no difference. The thing is to get them to understand that we are human just like them and all we want is to be left alone to live our lives how we see fit as long as we ourselves don't physically hurt another human being. We all have a right to oppose things we don't like. Whether it be fact driven, opinion driven or whatever.
That's all I'm saying.
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:24 pm
Aku, you seem a bit misinformed. Evolution DOES have facts backing it up. Evolution has far more proof than creationism, with the work of darwin, with the super bacteria strains we get from using antibacterial, and many other things. Genetic comparisons and looking at skulls from different points in time prove it. Also, making it scientifically valid is that it predicts future changes (we will keep evolving) whereas creationism does not.
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:48 pm
To Aku: Quote: Well in theory.. there is evolution. You realize that gravity is also just a theory, too, right? Quote: ...a good theory depending on how your believes go. Theories are based on FACTS not BELIEFS. Creationism is not a theory at all, but rather, a widespread belief. Of course, the universe had to start somewhere, right? But I'm not debating creationism. Quote: Our thoughts form beliefs based on things that we think are facts. Can't argue with that. My problem begins when people latch onto that belief despite evidence contrary to that point, or make groundless accusations. Quote: Even though we don't chose to be gay and we don't feel there is really anything wrong with it, it's still something we believe based on what our feelings tell us...Nobody has a right to force their own truth on anyone. If they wish to walk around blind as a bat, then let them. You mean like acceptance resolves many issues and creates happiness? Or that condemnation of people results in pain? My problem with letting people keep "their truth" is that society lets that become an excuse to bludgeon other people for no reason. Example A: Homosexuals. Quote: The thing is to get them to understand that we are human just like them and all we want is to be left alone to live our lives how we see fit as long as we ourselves don't physically hurt another human being. We all have a right to oppose things we don't like. And how can we do that without stealing away their blinders? How are they supposed to come to this grand realization that we aren't evil sinners with no outside help? The obvious answer is that it would be impossible. Left to themselves, they would go on chanting their little hateful words, and ignore anything we say. Was Dr. King wrong for marching in the Civil Rights Movement, for making white America listen to the words of a black man? For stealing away the mufflers from the heads of the white populace and playing for them the slave songs of the Old South? For saying, for shouting, that the black race is equal to the white race, and that we are all people? Are you going to tell me that he was wrong, too, for "forcing truth on them"? Of course not. Because what he did was absolutely right, correct, and just. No one who takes part in a democracy is entitled to remain ignorant or bigoted. No one. And that, Aku, is all I'm saying. Love and Vale, ~Leavaros Dapple Afterword: Thanks, Baka. I was going to point out Barbara Kingsolver's Small Wonder but you said it very well.
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:44 pm
A lot of things are theory's but who cares if they are true or not; as long as you know what you believe is true to yourself.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:59 am
Shmoo-Chan A lot of things are theory's but who cares if they are true or not; as long as you know what you believe is true to yourself. Eh, I understand where you're coming from, but have to disagree. As LD points out, gravity is just a theory, too. And it is one that is being challenged by physicists as we speak.. Seriously, everything we learned about physics and chemistry and such is inaccurate, some pieces to to the point of being blatantly wrong. It's cool stuff. Now if we apply this to marriage...... our religions and cultures' pasts tell us that marriage must happen in a certain way. Over the years, for the most part, we've discovered that you don't have to let your parents arrange a marriage for you. We've learned that interracial and inter-cultural marriage isn't going to kill us. We've started to accept that inter-religious marriages aren't so bad, either. (That one's totally whether your personal beliefs will personally allow you to marry a person of a different religion, though.) Some people.. many people.. have accepted that same-gender marriage isn't going to kill us either. Soon, it's likely that society will learn it on the whole, too. Our society's view of marriage is being challenged the same way that physics and chemistry are being challenged. New evidence is becoming available that truth isn't exactly what we've known for years. It's something new and different and exciting. And we might all be better off for it.
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:03 am
Oh, and to staunch this before it starts. I do not mean to say that this will lead to bestial marriages, since marriage still requires two PEOPLE to willingly enter a marriage together. (Arranged marriages are still willingly entered into. You can say, "No, I don't want to marry this person." and your parents counter with "Fine, you won't marry anyone." You can submit to your parents' will and willingly accept the marriage.)
And the same goes for polygamous marriages. It's TWO people willingly entering into matrimony together.
Does that sound fair?
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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:21 am
Saivanima Shmoo-Chan A lot of things are theory's but who cares if they are true or not; as long as you know what you believe is true to yourself. Eh, I understand where you're coming from, but have to disagree. As LD points out, gravity is just a theory, too. And it is one that is being challenged by physicists as we speak.. Seriously, everything we learned about physics and chemistry and such is inaccurate, some pieces to to the point of being blatantly wrong. It's cool stuff. Now if we apply this to marriage...... our religions and cultures' pasts tell us that marriage must happen in a certain way. Over the years, for the most part, we've discovered that you don't have to let your parents arrange a marriage for you. We've learned that interracial and inter-cultural marriage isn't going to kill us. We've started to accept that inter-religious marriages aren't so bad, either. (That one's totally whether your personal beliefs will personally allow you to marry a person of a different religion, though.) Some people.. many people.. have accepted that same-gender marriage isn't going to kill us either. Soon, it's likely that society will learn it on the whole, too. Our society's view of marriage is being challenged the same way that physics and chemistry are being challenged. New evidence is becoming available that truth isn't exactly what we've known for years. It's something new and different and exciting. And we might all be better off for it. Well put, Saiv. I'm not sure the rebuttal was necessary, but if I had to take the two together, well, I would. I think the question here is not so much "why" as "why not". Let's play the devil's advocate now, hmm? Why not legalize gay marriage? A sudden influx of marriages? Stability in the gay community? Gay divorces? Religious reasons? Of course there are no solid reasons as to why not. As soon ask the question, "Why is eating shellfish wrong?" Of course, it isn't. People can abstain from the eating of shellfish if they want, but they can't tell you not to eat shellfish. They can't even provide a reason why the eating of shellfish is wrong. Follow that thread and...duh! *smacks head* The eating of shellfish isn't wrong. Or if it is, there is no reason why it is. And if there is no reason why...well. Then the question hardly applies, right? In which case, we can then say, "Well, it's your choice to eat shellfish or not, but as for me, I'm going to Shells. Try and stop me." Ever asked someone to give you one good reason why I shouldn't...? Gay marriage advocates demand the same thing, but on a much broader scale. Love and Vale, ~Leavaros Dapple
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