Religion a virus?

[Koiyuki]

I have been reading much today, about how many atheists view all religion as the source of suffering, bloodshed, and so on.

An Excerpt From The Wikipedia Entry on 'The Root of all Evil?'

[Richard] Dawkins discusses specifically the idea of religion seen as a virus in the sense of a meme. He begins by explaining how he considers the mind of a child to be genetically pre-programmed to believe without questioning the word of authority figures, especially parents – the evolutionary imperative being that no child would survive by adopting a sceptical attitude towards everything their elders said. But this same imperative, he claims, leaves children open to "infection" by religion.

Dawkins meets the psychologist Jill Mytton who suffered an abusive religious upbringing – she now helps to rehabilitate similarly affected children. Mytton explains how, for a child, images of hell fire are in no sense metaphorical, but instead inspire real terror. She portrays her own childhood as one "dominated by fear." When pressed by Dawkins to describe the realities of Hell, Mytton hesitates, explaining that the images of eternal damnation which she absorbed as a child still have the power to affect her now.

Then Dawkins visits Pastor Keenan Roberts, who has been running the Hell House Outreach programme for 15 years, producing theatre shows aimed at giving children of twelve or older an indelible impression that "sin destroys". We see rehearsal scenes depicting doctors forcing an abortion on a woman despite her changing her mind, and a lesbian gay marriage ceremony presided over by Satan in which the women swear to “never believe that you are normal” and Satan cites First Corinthians 6 as God saying homosexuality equals sin. Roberts absolutely and unapologetically believes the scriptures about sin, and when Dawkins questions this basis for morality, replies that it is a faith issue.

Although this is showing the extreme side of faith, many would say this is all but commonplace within faith based organizations(even among those without a faith). My question to you all, is what do you think of religion as?


To me, religion(or anything you believe in, really) is like a tool: the intent changes with the person wielding it. I strongly believe we were not made to solely question why we exist. I believe we were made to utilize the things we've been given, and try to live life the best we can. To love one another, and to try and work towards harmony, peace, and personal achievement. Yes, religious people have done horrible things, as have non religious people, but whether we believe in something or not, we determine how what we learn, is ultimately utilized. I choose to use my knowledge to aid others, and to try and live my life the best I can.  

[M0rgan]

To truely explain and detail the entirety of my beliefs around religion, I would most likely need a ******** three book contract.

In short, I think religion and faith based organizations are an archaeic method of giving intellectually lazy people false purpose to their lives, an often amoral system of ethics, a bad, short-sighted, and closed-minded explination of how the world works, and most impotantly a method of controlling people's actions and thoughts.

Religion is dangerous because it influences normally good people into doing horribly evil acts. I do not profess to say that every nutjob who kills people in the name of God, Allah, the FSM, etc. would not do so if you eliminate the "insert deity here wants you to get rid of these people," but I'm sure if the 9/11 terrorists did NOT believe with every fiber of their beings that they were guarenteed a spot in heaven, not just for themselves, but forty other people of their choice as well, they probably would have thought twice about killing themselves along with all those "infidels." The same goes for Henderson and McKinney (the two men who killed Mathew Shepard), the Scientologists responsible for Lisa McPherson's death, the entire Spanish Inquisition, etc. Once again, this is not to say that without religion, bad people would not still do bad things; rather good people would have much less reason to do bad things. I repeat, religion is dangerous because people who normally have no problems with other people will suddenly have a reason to hurt, rape, torture, and kill other beings because their chosen deity supposedly said it was a good idea.

Religion is also dangerous because truely religious people believe that those without religion or faith are evil and immoral people. Take it from a pacifistic Athiest, no person has ever gone on a cross-country killing spree because God didn't tell them not to do it. Secondly, doing good deeds, taking care of the poor, and abiding by the terms of the social contract because your god says so and you'll get into heaven is not morality. It is reward and punishment. Going back to my previous argument regarding good people and bad things, without their religion backing them up on a moral crusade against evil doers, the 9/11 terrorists would be forced to take a step back and truely consider what they were doing and why they were doing it. I'm not trying to exonerate their actions, nothing ever morally justifies murder, but rather I am saying that religion takes away that most important thought process as self-responsibility (as well as critical thinking, but what would you ever need that for?).

A truely stupid and closed minded man by the name of Dr. Wayne Gish once said that Atheism gives rise to the mentality that one is only responsible to one's self, and that that mentality causes great harm in our society. I would first say that creating charity funds in order to convert people to a religion is not charity or showing any kind of reasonable responsability to society or others, and that many atheists throughout history have exhibited an overwhelming mentality of responsability towards others (Karl Marx, Andrew Carnegie, Margaret Sanger, Johnathan Miller, and Charles Bradlaugh, not to mention the probable hundreds of scientists and nobel-laureates who have discovered and produced hundreds of aspects of medical technology that continue to save millions of lives every day like Francis Crick, Marie Curie, and James D. Watson). Secondly, being responsible to one's self includes taking reponsability for one's actions and realizing the impact and nature of said actions. If every person who has ever killed in the name of religion would have stopped, thrown out the whole "God/Allah/the FSM/etc. told me to do it!" mentality, and thought seriously about what they were doing and why they were doing it, I doubt so many of them would have commited such heinous acts of violence.

Religion = Dagerous, Unnecesary, and Oppressive to me. But I'm not here to take anyone's religious beliefs away, as long as they don't impose their religious beliefs on anybody who doesn't want them (which given the true nature of religion really seems impossible).

That is the short, short version.  

[Koiyuki]

M0rgan

To truely explain and detail the entirety of my beliefs around religion, I would most likely need a ******** three book contract.

If you really wanted to, you'd have a good chance at getting one. Eloquent writers are becoming a rare breed, and from my standpoint, as a writer, you could seriously be something big. A change of pace from the Rush Limbaughs of the world, even.

M0rgan

In short, I think religion and faith based organizations are an archaeic method of giving intellectually lazy people false purpose to their lives, an often amoral system of ethics, a bad, short-sighted, and closed-minded explination of how the world works, and most impotantly a method of controlling people's actions and thoughts.

Sadly, that's how the leaders of many churches use religion, to try and gain followers. Fire and brimstone are often the crudest of tools to use, and also the easiest. Religion can give you a honest to goodness sense of being and importance, though, if it plays itself out in the right way. But you don't hear many of those kinds of stories, 'cause it's not flashy enough to make the news.

M0rgan

Religion is dangerous because it influences normally good people into doing horribly evil acts. I do not profess to say that every nutjob who kills people in the name of God, Allah, the FSM, etc. would not do so if you eliminate the "insert deity here wants you to get rid of these people," but I'm sure if the 9/11 terrorists did NOT believe with every fiber of their beings that they were guarenteed a spot in heaven, not just for themselves, but forty other people of their choice as well, they probably would have thought twice about killing themselves along with all those "infidels." The same goes for Henderson and McKinney (the two men who killed Mathew Shepard), the Scientologists responsible for Lisa McPherson's death, the entire Spanish Inquisition, etc. Once again, this is not to say that without religion, bad people would not still do bad things; rather good people would have much less reason to do bad things. I repeat, religion is dangerous because people who normally have no problems with other people will suddenly have a reason to hurt, rape, torture, and kill other beings because their chosen deity supposedly said it was a good idea.

It's true that when you have something you put everything of yourself, into believing in, you'll do what it takes to fulfill it, uphold it or keep it safe. If I may use something nonreligious as an example, if somebody were to try and hurt my Rokoko, while I was with her, I would most likely snap, and try to pummel the person into submission, unless she told me otherwise. Religiously, I am very peaceful, and will converse with anyone willing to, but if anyone attacked me because of my stance, when I would have no choice, but to defend myself. My overall mentality is: "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make the horse drink it"

M0rgan

Religion is also dangerous because truely religious people believe that those without religion or faith are evil and immoral people. Take it from a pacifistic Athiest, no person has ever gone on a cross-country killing spree because God didn't tell them not to do it. Secondly, doing good deeds, taking care of the poor, and abiding by the terms of the social contract because your god says so and you'll get into heaven is not morality. It is reward and punishment. Going back to my previous argument regarding good people and bad things, without their religion backing them up on a moral crusade against evil doers, the 9/11 terrorists would be forced to take a step back and truely consider what they were doing and why they were doing it. I'm not trying to exonerate their actions, nothing ever morally justifies murder, but rather I am saying that religion takes away that most important thought process as self-responsibility (as well as critical thinking, but what would you ever need that for?).

A truely stupid and closed minded man by the name of Dr. Wayne Gish once said that Atheism gives rise to the mentality that one is only responsible to one's self, and that that mentality causes great harm in our society. I would first say that creating charity funds in order to convert people to a religion is not charity or showing any kind of reasonable responsability to society or others, and that many atheists throughout history have exhibited an overwhelming mentality of responsability towards others (Karl Marx, Andrew Carnegie, Margaret Sanger, Johnathan Miller, and Charles Bradlaugh, not to mention the probable hundreds of scientists and nobel-laureates who have discovered and produced hundreds of aspects of medical technology that continue to save millions of lives every day like Francis Crick, Marie Curie, and James D. Watson). Secondly, being responsible to one's self includes taking reponsability for one's actions and realizing the impact and nature of said actions. If every person who has ever killed in the name of religion would have stopped, thrown out the whole "God/Allah/the FSM/etc. told me to do it!" mentality, and thought seriously about what they were doing and why they were doing it, I doubt so many of them would have commited such heinous acts of violence.

Religion = Dagerous, Unnecesary, and Oppressive to me. But I'm not here to take anyone's religious beliefs away, as long as they don't impose their religious beliefs on anybody who doesn't want them (which given the true nature of religion really seems impossible).

That is the short, short version.

*nods in agreement* A lot of religious people try and use the name of their God, to try and take the responsibility of their act off of their shoulders. They let their minds become so warped and twisted, that anything they want to do, they instantly claim it, as an act of God. Say I wanted to give in to my primal urges, and murdered every person that I felt hurt me, or did me wrong(this includes school bullies, a lot of my family, and even a few people I consider friends) I could just claim it, to be an order of God, and have that guilt and weight brushed right off my shoulders. Luckily, God and the world has taught me better than that. Over the years, I've learned that with human beings, there should be the capability to accept the things you've done, and let them shape your character, and what you ultimately become. Although I believe God gave me these talents and abilities, what I do with them is something I can control, and whatever may come from it, is something I will bear responsibility for.

This is also a big reason why I don't often attend my local churches. I'll become a kind and open minded Christian, rather than some hypocritical bigot, thank you.  

[Orion-Blacknuckle]

Religion isn't always an infection. Keep in mind that there are people out there who are religious and yet also very open-minded. What's wrong is when people twist their own religion to suit their personal needs, and try and tell or force other people to believe the same thing. I'm not saying that terrible things have been done in the name of religion, but sometimes religion is just a skapegoat. Those people who say they murdered in the name of God might have been lying so everyone else would take it easier on them.

You also have to look at all the positive aspects of religion. Think of all the good it has done around the world. It's inspired hope, given people the will to live, and started campaigns to save hundreds and thousands of starving or sick people. It isn't all bad.  

[Spicey Cognac]

Religion, like all things, can be good and bad. I think it is very important for everyone to have some kind of belief system, even if he or she is still in the process of developing it. Beliefs lay the foundations for morals as well as one's opinion on multiple topics, many of which crucial to current events. My childhood was not biased towards any certain religion or belief system, and because of that, I was able to develop my own beliefs which are personal and meaningful to me and my experiences. This process of forging a belief system is essential, I believe, for everyone to undergo.

However, I am against organized religion because of the extremes it is often taken to, such as the example Koiyuki provided. My mother faced a similar upbringing and rushed to get baptized as a teen because she was honestly plagued by fear of Hell and burning for all eternity. In many religions, there is usually a group or groups that have taken their faith a step or two too far and need to come to terms with reality. People will often take their religions at face value as well and overlook possible metaphors and realistic interpretations relative to the twenty-first century--for instance, the issue of homosexuality being looked upon as a sin merely because "the Bible says so." This is a gross oversimplification as homosexuality was not in the past what it is now. People did not marry two-thousand years ago for love, and even sex was different; rape was commonplace and the idea of sleeping with a man, in Greece for example, was everyday. There was an article I read by a Baptist Minister who wrote that the Bible in reference to homosexuality was likely speaking of a form of ***** often practiced by priests and ministers on young alter boys. (Funny how that hasn't changed much.) However, it will be impossible to ever know for sure because it took place thousands of years ago, and it is outside our power to know exactly was life was like back then without living it. Because of this, I find it utterly pointless to use the Bible as an excuse to ostracize homosexuals. The same can be applied for most anyone who does not fit into the preferred way of being, religion used as the reason to exile them from the group.

Religion and beliefs are something that above all must be taken in moderation and with a kind outlook on life and the universe. Faith should be used to unite humanity in times of crisis and as a path we can follow to our inner selves as a method of understanding our meaning as an individual and as a whole. So to answer your question Koiyuki, religion can be used as a virus by humans, but it cannot be blamed on God, Allah, Buddha, or any other deity. It, like many other things, it something many people misuse, but if taught correctly and expressed through love instead of hatred, it is a tool for mankind that can be used to satisfy and bring light and happiness.  

[Tom for President]

Y'know, I just finished reading a book. "Snatched from the Dragon". It's about an American family living in a Communist China just before- and during- the Tiennamen Square shootings- the one with college students and all. It was published at around 1990, and the names were changed to protect the people mentioned in the book still living in China.

And I hated reading that damned thing.

Not that I think the killing at Beijing was stupid- far from it, it's why I feel disgust and anger whenever I think of China: every time I try to think of some great monument or the great numbers of people, my mind always wanders to the butchering of young people who wanted freedom of speech, of religion, of the basic human rights that have been denied from the beginning amidst a xenophobic communism led by megalomaniacs that snapped at the slightest sign of disobedience from the people they were supposed to love. Communism is supposed to be for the people- and yet, in the end, it's been a regime. The only reason why I really don't hate China is because I understand it's why we get cheap labor and because I think they're why North Korea hasn't done something monumentally stupid.

It isn't because the woman was a terrible writer; quite the contrary, she wrote fairly well. I mean, I'm sure I've read better, but it gave me an avid picture of the conditions they lived in, the faces of those they had seen, and the people that they had known in their time within Red China. And it wasn't because I disliked the story; considering I've been in Maryland for the vast majority of my life, I find the thought of travel to far-away lands all too exciting.

Want to know why I was pissed? Because the woman was a damned fanatic. She wrote an autobiography of what her and her family experienced, and every other word was mired in religious bigotry.

In the book, she talks about God healing her daughter, about Buddhism being a 'Dark, oppressive religion', about how she told a Chinese woman that an abortion was a crime and how it was killing a little child, and how she told so many in an oppressive and controlling government that nobody can be truly happy without believing in Jesus- and these things pissed me off more then I had thought they would. Not because Christianity was suppressed in China at the time, and not because of their belief, but because they pressed their fanaticism on others, forced their own beliefs on the people they talked about without acknowledging the validity of others. They constantly put things in the "We're right because we're Christian and Democratic, they're wrong because they're atheist/Buddhist/Shinto and Communist" perspective. Don't get me wrong- I dislike Communism in a strong way. But the way they put things made my skin crawl.

That's what pisses me off. When someone assumes that I'm never truly happy, that my marriage will never truly be complete, that I'll never be able to do some of the things that I want without Jesus Christ. It isn't that I care what they think, somuch as their condescension. The fact that no matter how much a woman and I click, how much we get along, and even love each other, if she's too devoted and intolerant to those of her religion she's going to break off the relationship.

Yeah. Religion doesn't piss me off- in some cases, it's a healthy thing, and it eliminates some of the fear of dying. But when it blinds people to science, reason, other beliefs, and love, it disgusts me in a way that few things can.  

[Sanguine Fleur]

READ SNOW CRASH

 

[Lord Vyce]

Yeah thanks for that, DB. Nice contribution.

I'll join this discussion when I have time. This post will be edited.