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Distinct Conversationalist

So, recently, Cracked had this article about how movies control our brains, but really, it can apply to any narrative media. Like stories. That we write. That the Writers' Forum exists to discuss.

So.

What do you think of the idea? Do you consider it when writing your own work? When reading others' work? What are the implications of the story you're writing RIGHT NOW? (well, not right now, because you're here, reading this) Are you happy with those implications? Unhappy? Couldn't care less? Think it's a load of s**t?

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I liked that article. It's basically true. How we think is reflected in how we tell stories.

It's why we have conspiracy theories. When reality doesn't meet out dramatic standards, some of of us spice it up a little. Kennedy couldn't have been killed by a lone nutjob. Too random. There had to be a second shooter. It was all part of a plan. It was weather balloons at Roswell, it was ********' aliens! Aaah! 9/11, Pearl Harbor, etc.

Although part of all that is a reaction to the fact there is no plan and no one is in control.

Distinct Conversationalist

Klaark
Kennedy couldn't have been killed by a lone nutjob. Too random. There had to be a second shooter.

I believe there's another Cracked article about the craziest conspiracies that actually existed and actually worked, and there was a conspiracy about the Kennedy assassination. The USSR had a conspiracy to plant conspiracy theories about it. Which, you know, worked. Really well.

Which kind of gets me back to the one about the competing art styles. Which sounds rediculous if you don't art. But the abstract expressionism backed by the CIA and whatnot in opposition to the more realistic style endorsed by the USSR existed as an expression of the value of the individual, which, you know, not really what the USSR stood for. And not only did the USSR fall, but modern art can trace a distinct linneage to abstract expressionism.

Foofy intellectualism strikes again!

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Kita-Ysabell
Klaark
Kennedy couldn't have been killed by a lone nutjob. Too random. There had to be a second shooter.

I believe there's another Cracked article about the craziest conspiracies that actually existed and actually worked, and there was a conspiracy about the Kennedy assassination. The USSR had a conspiracy to plant conspiracy theories about it. Which, you know, worked. Really well.

Which kind of gets me back to the one about the competing art styles. Which sounds rediculous if you don't art. But the abstract expressionism backed by the CIA and whatnot in opposition to the more realistic style endorsed by the USSR existed as an expression of the value of the individual, which, you know, not really what the USSR stood for. And not only did the USSR fall, but modern art can trace a distinct linneage to abstract expressionism.

Foofy intellectualism strikes again!


My favorite theory about Roswell is the U.S. wanted the U.S.S.R to think it had captured an alien spacecraft, which would make them s**t themselves and spend resources on catching up.

Of course it also gave many a Sci-Fi writer an excuse not to work too hard.

Dangerous Enabler

Oh, I like that article. It kind of talks about cultural narratives and narrative fallacies without ever using that language.

I spend a fair amount of time thinking about the implications of what I'm writing, because I am kind of obsessive and also really don't want to perpetuate awful damaging crap. I also tend to read others' work for the same sort of implications: that's part of the reason that 50 Shades sends me off spewing fountains of vitriol.

The one I'm working on right now repeats a common theme in my writing: that being smart is not enough, that you need to do something with it, and also that alienation is a good basis for group bonding, and also that asking for permission gets you laid like woah. I really like implications.

Distinct Conversationalist

I think I did kind of put myself through the wringer with this sort of thing during my failed attempt to major in English, and I would like to think that my stories show evidence of it.

The articulation in the article is really clear and I appreciate that, but... actually, I think I started looking at this sort of thing for my senior project, when I was looking at guerilla theater. I remember trying to explain to the Radical Student Alliance (or somesuch, I don't remember) how Star Wars could carry messages that were ultimately acting in service to potentially oppressive systems. Huh. I don't think I did a very good job.

One thing that always stood out for me was the value of the individual over the value of the group. I remember they guy whose book I was reading (don't remember who at the moment) talked about how in Greek theater, there was a marked shift from the chorus-as-protagonist to the individual-as-protagonist and talking about the implications of this. I've always wondered what it would be like to read a modern story told with the group-as-protagonist. I think maybe I've seen it a couple of times, but I couldn't say one way or the other without further thought.

However, I think there has been massive development in terms of narrative since the times of Greek drama, and that we can convey much more sophistocated ideas, and they really are there, they don't just get covered up by our unintentional prejudices, and that maybe the individual-as-protagonist isn't such a bad thing. It might be noted that I no longer set out to write stories with morals, but instead, stories with honest-to-god fleshed out themes and ideas. And I think I have become more capable at such.

That said, if I break Black Circus down to its most basic narrative implications?

Umm.

If You Have A Great Deal of Dedication and Perserverence, You Will Win Phyrric Victories and Learn Difficult Lessons About an Ultimately Uncaring World?

Well, my stories are never about how to be a basically good person, I kind of abhor authors who end on the "well, stand up to evil people, I guess, and everything will turn out fine" sort of morals. The world is complicated, it will ask complicated things of you, and any system of morality that actually works for said world will be equally complicated and can't really be taught. And there will be no reward, so you'd better learn to be a good person for its own sake.

I have done away with straight-up antagonists in my work, and I am inordinately pleased about the implications of that. Evil people make everything simple, and if it's simple, it doesn't apply to the real world, so if there are evil people in your story, your story really can't discuss morality.

But then, my main character is beautiful.

And there's a phrase bouncing around my head, "morality for beautiful girls." And I realize that there really is a different moral standard for women if they're pretty, and if they're not, and different opportunities that are made availible to them. And I realize that I, like most authors, am writing a book for pretty girls. And that I will have to tread very carefully in this.

There's a line, though, "There is a beauty in broken things."

The story really is (as I knew it to be from the first) a discussion of the complications in the intersection of morality and aesthetics. Elvira lives in a world of beauty and brutality. It is not my world, and it never was.

Although there is a thread that runs through Brideshead Revisited about the difference between being able to see what is beautiful and being beautiful. So maybe it is my world after all, only I stand on the other side of a glass partition? Which side, then, does Elvira stand upon as she comes to realize the aesthetic which she serves? Bleh. So many questions.

Augh, I miss the computer that auto-checks spelling on the internet. I don't know why this one doesn't do it, but it doesn't, and I hate it.

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I like how they say there's no intentional agenda from the writer, but there's something there, doing something to the reader.
Kita-Ysabell

Um... at the risk of sounding stupid... what's the Black Circus? I googled it, but... about the only (somewhat) relevant thing I found was for a Deviant Art RP group.

Distinct Conversationalist

Maltese_Falcon91
Kita-Ysabell

Um... at the risk of sounding stupid... what's the Black Circus? I googled it, but... about the only (somewhat) relevant thing I found was for a Deviant Art RP group.
Oh, sorry.

That's the story I'm working on at the moment. It exists pretty much nowhere but in a notebook, so... there's no Googling that.
I enjoyed that article, although I found the bit about Jaws to be rather intriguing. Honestly, it bewilders me that people would try to hunt the sharks so much after that particular fictional movie. At the same time, it does make sense. How many people were upset when they didn't get their letter to Hogwarts at age eleven? How many (pre) teen girls tried to turn their boyfriends into vampires with their dirty menstrual stuff? (Yahoo Answers can be so disturbing sometimes! gonk ) How many power lines had shoes tied to them after Like Mike came out? I wonder how many people believed OJ Simpson really didn't do it after he came out with the book, "If I Did It", and I wonder how many people were even more skeptical after that book hit the shelves.

It leads to me to be very curious about how people will react to my short stories and novels, and I'm somewhat cautious about submitting them to publishers. I normally write about how people can destroy lives of another (such as the novel I'm currently working on about an abused man and his attention whore wife.) , but the problem people will find with my books, I already know, is "misogyny". Really, it's not so much misogyny; it's more so that anyone and everyone has the capabilities of running someone's life so far into the ground, they're seeing hipsters. Although, I will say, from experience, women will do this more often than men will, and that is why it is that way in the books I write.

Distinct Conversationalist

I_Write_Ivre
I like how they say there's no intentional agenda from the writer, but there's something there, doing something to the reader.
I think it's a very important distinction to make.

I think a lot of the implication pitfalls that writers fall into are ones they really didn't expect. I honestly don't think Stephanie Meyer set out to write the most unfortunate series of all time, it just kind of happened. And then there's J. K. Rowling's Invisible Gay People. She says they're there, but unless we take her word as text, there's only Dumbledore and Grindlewald, and that... didn't turn out so well. Well, unless we count Harry fawning after a younger Tom Riddle, but I digress.

Man, that series is full of so much WTF. And by that I mean, connotation WTF, not intentional wackiness.

But as a writer, it sort of brings up the question: if I didn't mean to do it, am I accountable for it anyways? I kind of think that I am, as Thou Shalt Not Stand Idly By, so I hold myself accountable for not going back and checking almost as much as I would if I knew it was there and sent it out anyways.

But if I try to avoid Unfortunate Implications, and check to the best of my ability, and they're still there? Augh. I don't know.

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Kita-Ysabell
I_Write_Ivre
I like how they say there's no intentional agenda from the writer, but there's something there, doing something to the reader.
I think it's a very important distinction to make.

I think a lot of the implication pitfalls that writers fall into are ones they really didn't expect. I honestly don't think Stephanie Meyer set out to write the most unfortunate series of all time, it just kind of happened. And then there's J. K. Rowling's Invisible Gay People. She says they're there, but unless we take her word as text, there's only Dumbledore and Grindlewald, and that... didn't turn out so well. Well, unless we count Harry fawning after a younger Tom Riddle, but I digress.

Man, that series is full of so much WTF. And by that I mean, connotation WTF, not intentional wackiness.

But as a writer, it sort of brings up the question: if I didn't mean to do it, am I accountable for it anyways? I kind of think that I am, as Thou Shalt Not Stand Idly By, so I hold myself accountable for not going back and checking almost as much as I would if I knew it was there and sent it out anyways.

But if I try to avoid Unfortunate Implications, and check to the best of my ability, and they're still there? Augh. I don't know.


It brings up other questions. Did you do it subconsciously? Will people insist you did?
Kita-Ysabell
That's the story I'm working on at the moment. It exists pretty much nowhere but in a notebook, so... there's no Googling that.

Darn. Well, on one hand, I'm sort of glad that Black Circus isn't some sort of super famous classic (not yet, anyway) and that literally everyone else has heard of. One the other hand, I kind of feel silly for asking now. Oh well.
Kita-Ysabell
But as a writer, it sort of brings up the question: if I didn't mean to do it, am I accountable for it anyways? I kind of think that I am, as Thou Shalt Not Stand Idly By, so I hold myself accountable for not going back and checking almost as much as I would if I knew it was there and sent it out anyways.

But if I try to avoid Unfortunate Implications, and check to the best of my ability, and they're still there? Augh. I don't know.

I'd have to completely disagree with you there. First, you can't really control how people are going to interpret your writing. Do you think the Beatles should held accountable for Manson thinking their song, Helter Skelter was some sort of doomsday prophecy?

And second, well, self censorship is just as bad as regular censorship, and you shouldn't compromise your vision because there's a chance you might offend someone. There are people out there who'd probably react to Blade Runner the same way you think about Twilight. Does that mean Ridley Scott intended to offend them? Should the film be tampered with to remove any controversial elements? Was Deckard a replicant? Yeah, probably not.

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That was an interesting article. For years now I've pretty much understood that tv and movies were full of s**t, especially ones based on a true story. After all there is a reason it says "based on" and not "is" a true story. But I've never really thought about just how far it goes.

I have considered how some might take my current work. There is an unfortunate implication of "technology and society = bad", but that's not really what the story is suppose to be about. I can't get rid of it though, because leaving society and it's trappings behind her is large part of the personal journey the main character takes.

What turns out to be a fulfilling life for her is not necessarily what would be one for anyone else and I plan to write it so that the story does acknowledge that. After all it's her journey, the reader is just a bystander.

That doesn't mean people won't take it wrong, but I refuse to be held accountable if some idiot goes wandering off to live in the wild and gets eaten by a bear(or some other problem that would occur when an unprepared city dweller thinks they can survive off the grid) after reading my story.

Provided that I ever finish it and get it publish, of course.

I've only set out to tell a story about a girl and her dragon, but now I wonder what else people would likely take away from it.

(There will be "bad guys" now that I think about it. But I realized that this kind of story might not interest people without one. Initial plans didn't include any.)

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Maltese_Falcon91
I'd have to completely disagree with you there. First, you can't really control how people are going to interpret your writing. Do you think the Beatles should held accountable for Manson thinking their song, Helter Skelter was some sort of doomsday prophecy?

And second, well, self censorship is just as bad as regular censorship, and you shouldn't compromise your vision because there's a chance you might offend someone. There are people out there who'd probably react to Blade Runner the same way you think about Twilight. Does that mean Ridley Scott intended to offend them? Should the film be tampered with to remove any controversial elements? Was Deckard a replicant? Yeah, probably not.
See, there's a difference between "implications" and "what some nutcase will think the secret message is." One you can talk about in English class and one you can't. It's a matter of what's plausible and what isn't.

For example, there's an interpretation of James Joyce's... Ulyses, I think it is, that ties into the USSR. This is not plausible. You can pick it out, but, it doesn't make any statement about the USSR, just kind of... references it, maybe, so it really wouldn't even affect anyone's thinking. Besides, it just isn't a very reasonable explaination. It's a bunch of random bits and peices that are much more likely to be coincidental.

So, an author can't be held responsible for any interpretation that isn't reasonable.

What's more, this isn't "responsible" in the one-to-one ratio of cause-and-effect. The image that sticks with me is Susan Griffen describing these sorts of societal tendencies as a field, like a gravatational or magnetic field. They tend in a certain way. Each story is only a tiny part of that field, and each person it acts on a single particle in a sea of matter. It's impossible to predict the movement of a single particle, or the exact parts of the field that affect it, but you can see the direction it's tending towards and, as an author or reader, identify a given work's position in relation to said field.

Take, for example, The Dark Knight and the theater shooting that the perpetrator claims it inspired. Was Christopher Nolan really responsible for that? No. "Shoot up a theater" is not a reasonable interpretation of The Dark Knight.

However, we do live in a culture of violence. Stories where violence is not a major (if not the only) tool used by the protagonist to achieve their goals are in the minority. In books, in movies, in games, violence being okay is the default. It's a value that's been slowly engraved into each and every one of us.

If we lived in a non-violent culture would the theater shooting still have happened? It's impossible to know. You can't predict the movement of a single particle in the field, especially when that particle's movement is irrational. But you can tell the direction that the field tends towards. If we lived in a non-violent culture, we can't pick out which occurrences of violence would not happen, but it is reasonable to assume that there would be, in general, less violence.

In terms of "self-censorship," first of all, it comes down to "I don't want to say what I don't want to say." Do I want to write a racist story? Hell no! It's not a matter of not wanting to offend someone, it's a matter of not wanting to write a racist story. Because, for reasons including those stated in the article, I really do believe in the power of culture, particularly stories, to change the world, and I don't want to live in a racist/sexist/homophobic/violent/what have you world. And I certainly don't want to be part of the field that pushes it in that direction.

I don't want to say what I don't want to say. That's what it means to me to have integrity, and it's something I value the heck out of.

It's the same reason I wouldn't publish a crappy story. I don't want to live in a world full of crappy stories. What's more, if someone realizes it's a crappy story, I don't want it hanging around my reputation. So I write good stories because a) I want to read good stories and b) I want to be known as someone who writes good stories.

But integrity aside, just because there's a reason not to do something doesn't mean you automatically shouldn't do it. It just means you compare the pros and the cons, and if the pros outweigh the cons, you do it. But that doesn't absolve you from the cons. It means you should take responsibility for the entire outcome of your decision.

Responsibility isn't a matter of doing or not doing something. It's a matter of considering something, and then carrying the weight of having done it. Forever. It's knowing what was done and then keeping that knowledge beside you for the rest of your life. Because that's what it takes to live in a world worth living in.

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