Alashuko The Fighter
haunting heaven
Alashuko The Fighter
Moises Meraz-Espinoza walked into the Huntington Park Police Department two years ago and confessed to killing his mother, Amelia Espinoza, 42.
Uh. Yes. He obviously killed her. What I'm arguing is that I don't immediately buy the line that he killed her because of Satanism. He could have, but the fact that the prosecuting lawyer is the one who claimed this doesn't prove that he actually did.
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And people killed and continue to kill in the name of God. Big. Mother. ********. Whoop. It's just another motive for murder as well as a conviction.
I like how you're getting all defensive once your own reasoning has been turned on you. If Satan is evil because his followers kill in his name, then all you did was dig your own grave there, buddy. Don't get angry with me. It's your bullshit I'm using.
I'm not angry because of your winning points. I'm angry because of the overused arguments atheists use.
You mean the arguments that directly mirror the argument YOU made? In case you didn't realize, YOU brought up the idea of followers killing in the name of their deity and the subsequent evil of said deity.
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God is bloodthirsty, people killed in the name of God, Christianity has contradictions and flaws.
All true. Perhaps it's why said arguments are used. I'm sure you would prefer if we forgot Christianity's flaws like you all seem to, but that's not going to happen. Why on earth would we STOP pointing out legitimate issues with your religion?
Pointing out facts isn't an "excuse."
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Just like I'm sure atheists are sick of hearing Atheists turned into christians, christians saying people like Stalin wouldn't have killed if it weren't for his atheist communist society, and America wasn't built for atheists.
Some atheists do become Christians, but most of the Christians I've come across who claimed they were once atheists don't even know what atheism
is, so excuse me if I doubt that it happens as often as you people claim. And Stalin would have killed people whether he was an atheist or not, and America's founding fathers weren't uniformly Christian like the conservative right would have you believe (for someone who claims to hate conservatives, you sure do buy into their lies).
I find it interesting that you compare legitimate issues with Christianity to lies made up by Christians and pretend that they're equivalent.
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You use something we already know and we can't defend or change.
I'm sorry? Are we supposed to cater to YOU when disproving your religion? Why on earth would we do that?
Also, atrocities committed by Christianity STILL HAPPENS. You telling me you can't change that?
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The point is, forget the past. Change the future.
How, exactly, does one "change the future" while deliberately ignoring the past? It's literally impossible if you DON'T ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS. Why don't you simply take responsibility for your religions bullshit and go from there?
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Atheists always point about the past of religion and never focus on the future without bringing the past up.
BECAUSE THE FUTURE DOES NOT EXIST IN A VACUUM. IT IS DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY THE PAST.
Also, stop pretending that all of Christianity's wrongdoings are in the past, because they're not.
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The future is, religion is another Philosophy towards life and death.
I'm not even going to try to parse that out.
Hidden Path
haunting heaven
Hidden Path
The problem is that you can't use a "follower's kill count" as a measure for evil.
I'm not the one who put it forth as an issue. I'm simply pointing out Alashuko's faulty reasoning. Why don't you take it up with him?
And while I think "follower kill count" is faulty, actual kill count of the entities in question certainly means something. And God still brutally slaughters people over and over again in your holy book, whereas the only people Satan kills, he kills with God's permission.
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And while I am sure that there are many Satanic/Occult rituals which do harm and sacrifice people,
And why on earth are you sure of that?
If the devil does come to steal, kill, and destroy than he is quite content with the death of many people and condones all kinds of detestable acts.
Whatever you think Satan "condones" is irrelevant. Where's your proof that Satanists are down with sacrificing people?
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All he needs to do is deceive people, lead them astray, so that they will die without accepting the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
And what if by "leading them astray" he is actually saving them from the horrific fate that is heaven? See, anyone can make wild, unprovable claims about fictional characters.
The Bible doesn't mention heaven having a horrific fate, but it does mention that Satan comes only to steal, kill, and destroy.
And the Bible shows that God is a liar who often hates and kills his creation. Why on earth should we trust anything it has to say about Satan? Remember, show don't tell.
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Also, there is a valid point about God's justice that people just don't want to hear in this day and age: he is allowed to take life away from his creation.
Allowed? Technically. But if you want to tell me that he's all-loving and merciful and so on, then I'm going to side eye you real hard.
It's because when people look at the different attributes of God, all they want to see is a loving God who would never condemn people to hell.
You can't say he is all-loving AND that he condemns said beloved creation to hell. These are mutually exclusive. God cannot have both attributes.
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They pick and choose the attributes that they want to see.
This has nothing to do with what I "want to see." In fact, what I see is a bloodthirsty, judgmental God. It's you people who keep trying to tell me that he's omnibenevolant despite your holy book showing otherwise.
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God is all-loving and merciful,
All-loving and merciful... until other attributes come into play. And thus, not all-loving and merciful.
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but people like to ignore his other attributes, such as his holiness and sovereignty.
And jealousy and rage and pettiness. Seems like you're ignoring a few things yourself.
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Yeah God is all-loving and merciful, but if he doesn't fit your box of what loving and merciful really is (something beyond human comprehension) than that's your issue.
Oh, it's MY issue that I an unable to comprehend something beyond human comprehension? You sure about that?
Also, as soon as you put God outside of human comprehension, you are no longer able to tell me anything about that God without me laughing at you. If he is beyond human comprehension,
then you have no idea if he is good or evil because you have already admitted that it is impossible to determine. Therefore, any judgment you make concerning him is laughably groundless.
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You can't claim that God is evil because he doesn't act how you want him to and holiness is an attribute.
You can't claim that God is good because he acts how you want him to.
Also, if God is so far above humanity that we cannot comprehend him, I'm pretty sure insanity is another attribute of his.
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that is not necessarily needed for Satan's purpose. (though you could count many sacrifices, such as of the Aztecs or to Moloch in the Bible as sacrifices to the Great Deceiver in the Grand scheme of things)
No. Because the Aztecs have nothing whatsoever to do with Satan because they worshiped OTHER GODS, and any sacrifices made to false Gods in the OT can have nothing to do with Satan, either, seeing as Satan was simply just another angel of God's who did what he was told to do BY GOD. He doesn't become a malevolent entity until the NT.
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He is allowed to kill the unrighteous if he sees it just.
Infants are unrighteous? Punishing children because of the sins of their parents is just? Killing a whole family for the sake of one member is okay?
There are things that we as humans cannot claim to understand about this fallen world.
As I've already pointed out, you defeat your own argument, then.
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There were many consequences for Sin in the world.
Including killing people for the sins of others? Hm.
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This is the whole problem of evil argument. Unjust things happen such as children being born with an incurable disease... but wherever there is infant sacrifice in the Bible (to Moloch) God always detests that act.
Except for when he orders infants to be killed. And when he orders that a whole town (including infants) be burned as an offering to him. Guess God was pretty okay with the child sacrifice after all -- just not when it was going to other Gods.
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Whenever there is infant sacrifice by cultures, God detests that action and brings judgment upon them. Apparently some Canaanite cultures were so wicked that God saw it just to wipe them out.
Including the infants he was so sad about them killing, apparently. Kind of self-defeating, don't you think?
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And yes, sacrifices to Moloch and the Aztec sacrifices are great examples of demonic behavior.
They're examples of the detestable lengths people will go to appease their Gods. Note that Christians are just as guilty of said detestable lengths.
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According to the Bible, all truth is from God while everything sinful is from the father of lies (aka the devil).
We've already established that the Bible can't be trusted.
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These gods had many different names, but ultimately by profaning themselves with the detestable act of sacrificing people to gods, they thus sacrificed people to the devil.
You have yet to prove Satan asks for sacrifices.
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And another point, when you say that God is allowed to kill infants... I don't exactly think that it's God endorsing abortion as an example.
I have no idea why you're bringing up abortion, especially since abortion has nothing to do whatsoever with the murder of infants.
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I can see parallels of mass-sacrifice taking place daily to the devil while no-one knows it.
If you're going to use abortion as more sacrifices to Satan, then I'm going to say that all the deaths caused by natural disasters are sacrifices to God.
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And the role of the devil has always been an accuser, one who comes to convict mankind of their sins.
Which is the role he played for God at God's behest.
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He wants people to go to hell.
Apparently that's what God wants, otherwise they wouldn't be in hell.
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People would rather call God evil for this and try to sympathize with Satan, but in the end it is playing into deception.
Really? How do you know? If we have to worry about being deceived by otherworldly forces, what on earth makes you think you could ever know for sure if you haven't been deceived or not? Especially since the OP isn't wrong about God deceiving Adam and Eve in Genesis. God clearly has no issues with lying or with blaming humanity for something that was technically his responsibility (because if you think Adam and Eve should be blamed for "sinning," I'm just going to have to point out that the very tree that they weren't supposed to eat from was the only thing that would have allowed them to understand and resist temptation). Why on earth should anyone trust God over Satan? The Bible seems to fail the classic "show, don't tell" issue. It
tells us (in the NT) that Satan is evil and God doesn't lie, but it
shows us that Satan (assuming he is the snake, because that's not actually biblical, either) cares more about humanity than their deceiver God.
Yeah the OP is actually wrong about God deceiving Adam and Eve in Genesis. God did not lie. Also that's a big assumption you're making, that Adam and Eve did not understand temptation.
Uh. No it's not. They literally did not know right from wrong.
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There is the view today that they were stupid or robots without the ability to choose,
Because they did not know right from wrong.
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but I think they must have been extremely intelligent to have been able to see God face to face and they must have comprehended more than you give them credit for.
They did not know right from wrong.
I didn't make this up. Your Bible is the one that makes it super clear that they had not yet eaten from the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
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Also you are free to trust in Satan over God if you want.
I don't put my trust in fictional characters.
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That is all your own conjecture and speculation.
Same as your claims are all conjecture and speculation -- as you outright admitted when you told me that God is beyond human comprehension.
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Nowhere in the Bible, as OP seems to suggest, does it claim that God is actually evil while Satan is good.
No. Of course not. It just shows that God is a horrible creature and that Satan is his servant in the OT and then his strangely powerless adversary in the NT. I like the serpent much better than either of them.
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You're free to think that, but that definitely does not come from a Biblical perspective.
Neither does most of your bullshit, but that doesn't stop you, does it?
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Where does it say in the Bible that Satan cares more about humanity than God?
It doesn't. I never claimed it did. I do however think that the serpent in the garden gave more of s**t for humanity than God did. You're the one equating the serpent with Satan, and I've been playing along with it for the sake of the argument, but shockingly enough I'm not a Satanist, and I just want to be clear on that.
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Even in the Old Testament "the Satan" is seen as an accusing figure, who wants to condemn people of their sins before God. He is not exactly a friend to humanity.
Yep, in which case, neither is God because Satan is not a fallen angel in the OT.
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And to the OP, Satan did not come out looking pretty good and I'm definitely not convinced by that article. You also seem to have left out the fact that they did die.
Genesis 2:16-17 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for
in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
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Because of the original sin, Man became mortal and death entered the world. That view that they would die on the day that they ate the fruit? Yeah I don't see that in the Bible.
Probably because you haven't bothered to read it. The wonders that reading your own holy book can do for you, yeah? Because that verse I posted above? It's from the Bible.
You must be using the KJV for that verse. In the NIV it says
Genesis 2:16-17 "And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
And Young's Literal Translation says this: " 'and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for
in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'"
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That translation is slightly different,
Which reflects the bias of the translator, it seems.
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saying when you eat from it you will certainly die.
I'm going to trust the literal translation over a newer translation made by someone who obviously noticed the discrepancy.
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And I think you missed the point. Adam and Eve died because of their sin. Even taking the KJV translation, the day they ate of the fruit, they brought death into the world and they died as a result of this.
They were told that they would die on the day they ate the fruit. One could assume God changed his mind and decided to extend mercy, but he doesn't suggest this and Adam and Eve don't call him out on it.
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Would you say that the serpent was right and that they continued to be immortal?
Let's assume he did outright lie about their loss of immortality -- and he certainly was deceitful about it, you have no argument from me there, though he never actually stated they would remain immortal -- I still posit that immortality was an acceptable sacrifice for what they gained: knowledge, freedom, understanding, and their ******** humanity.
