The Abortion Debate

[Pro Life Nymph]

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

What country are you in? In America, all people are offered equal protection under the law.

Well, then, legally speaking, a fetus isn't a person until birth.
emphasis added.

The law says, "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

If we go with that, then you can only say that an unborn child/fetus is not a human being, otherwise legalizing abortion is a contradiction in the law.

But in California, the penal code contains an exception that states causing the death of a fetus doesn't apply if it was done with the consent of the woman carrying the pregnancy.

So if legislator Joe Schmo drafted a bill that killing all blacks and Jews was okay because they are annoying, and it passed the House and Senate and was signed by the president, then under definition of murder slaughtering them would not be murder. I think that shows just how hollow the arguement you provided is. 'The following action that meets this description is murder, unless we say its okay, then it's not'

[Jazzberry]

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

What country are you in? In America, all people are offered equal protection under the law.

Well, then, legally speaking, a fetus isn't a person until birth.
emphasis added.

The law says, "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

If we go with that, then you can only say that an unborn child/fetus is not a human being, otherwise legalizing abortion is a contradiction in the law.

But in California, the penal code contains an exception that states causing the death of a fetus doesn't apply if it was done with the consent of the woman carrying the pregnancy.

So if legislator Joe Schmo drafted a bill that killing all blacks and Jews was okay because they are annoying, and it passed the House and Senate and was signed by the president, then under definition of murder slaughtering them would not be murder. I think that shows just how hollow the arguement you provided is. 'The following action that meets this description is murder, unless we say its okay, then it's not'

Hey, you brought up the idea that fetuses were protected equally under the law. I was only providing you with evidence to the contrary.

[Pro Life Nymph]

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

What country are you in? In America, all people are offered equal protection under the law.

Well, then, legally speaking, a fetus isn't a person until birth.
emphasis added.

The law says, "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

If we go with that, then you can only say that an unborn child/fetus is not a human being, otherwise legalizing abortion is a contradiction in the law.

But in California, the penal code contains an exception that states causing the death of a fetus doesn't apply if it was done with the consent of the woman carrying the pregnancy.

So if legislator Joe Schmo drafted a bill that killing all blacks and Jews was okay because they are annoying, and it passed the House and Senate and was signed by the president, then under definition of murder slaughtering them would not be murder. I think that shows just how hollow the arguement you provided is. 'The following action that meets this description is murder, unless we say its okay, then it's not'

Hey, you brought up the idea that fetuses were protected equally under the law. I was only providing you with evidence to the contrary.

So again I ask, if a law passed that all blacks and Jews could be killed because they annoy lawmakers, and people you know were gunned down because of it simply for being Jewish or Black, you'd support it? Legal murder is still murder, and attempting to use a law to justify it is a weak counterpoint.

[FC Fairchild]

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

There should be no restrictions on abortions, including age or birth-status. We should strive to create a culture of recreational abortions.

Explain, why should we create a culture where murder can be bought on any street corner?

Perhaps a street corner is not the most appropriate venue, but any and all methods of destroying all the humans and ab-humans not necessary to maintain or improve my lifestyle must be explored.

[Jazzberry]

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

The law says, "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

If we go with that, then you can only say that an unborn child/fetus is not a human being, otherwise legalizing abortion is a contradiction in the law.

But in California, the penal code contains an exception that states causing the death of a fetus doesn't apply if it was done with the consent of the woman carrying the pregnancy.

So if legislator Joe Schmo drafted a bill that killing all blacks and Jews was okay because they are annoying, and it passed the House and Senate and was signed by the president, then under definition of murder slaughtering them would not be murder. I think that shows just how hollow the arguement you provided is. 'The following action that meets this description is murder, unless we say its okay, then it's not'

Hey, you brought up the idea that fetuses were protected equally under the law. I was only providing you with evidence to the contrary.

So again I ask, if a law passed that all blacks and Jews could be killed because they annoy lawmakers, and people you know were gunned down because of it simply for being Jewish or Black, you'd support it? Legal murder is still murder, and attempting to use a law to justify it is a weak counterpoint.

I highly doubt I'd support it. Though I don't have much problem with allowing people to remove anything biologically dependant on them even if that removal would result in their death.

Technically, legal murder isn't really murder. You can claim your definition of murder is irrefutable under whatever system of moral truths to which you subscribe, but I'm more partial to the Kierkegaard-esque idea of truth and its subjectivity. So really, have at it. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't allow you the same freedom in experiencing and forming your truth as I thoroughly enjoy.

Edit: But gosh, don't these get tiresome. I have an essay to write!

[Pro Life Nymph]

AstonishingMockCongler

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

There should be no restrictions on abortions, including age or birth-status. We should strive to create a culture of recreational abortions.

Explain, why should we create a culture where murder can be bought on any street corner?

Perhaps a street corner is not the most appropriate venue, but any and all methods of destroying all the humans and ab-humans not necessary to maintain or improve my lifestyle must be explored.

And here I was called the troll. This one seems far more likely to be a troll then I.


Anyways Jazzberry, I look forward to arguing with you more, you seem to have some sense, even if you are misguided and support murder and attempt to justify it

[FC Fairchild]

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

There should be no restrictions on abortions, including age or birth-status. We should strive to create a culture of recreational abortions.

Explain, why should we create a culture where murder can be bought on any street corner?

Perhaps a street corner is not the most appropriate venue, but any and all methods of destroying all the humans and ab-humans not necessary to maintain or improve my lifestyle must be explored.

And here I was called the troll. This one seems far more likely to be a troll then I.


Anyways Jazzberry, I look forward to arguing with you more, you seem to have some sense, even if you are misguided and support murder and attempt to justify it

I believe it to be unfair that people will call me a troll but then pretend they do not understand when I counter by calling them a goat. References to fairy-tales should go two ways.

[linaloki]

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

The law says, "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

If we go with that, then you can only say that an unborn child/fetus is not a human being, otherwise legalizing abortion is a contradiction in the law.

But in California, the penal code contains an exception that states causing the death of a fetus doesn't apply if it was done with the consent of the woman carrying the pregnancy.

So if legislator Joe Schmo drafted a bill that killing all blacks and Jews was okay because they are annoying, and it passed the House and Senate and was signed by the president, then under definition of murder slaughtering them would not be murder. I think that shows just how hollow the arguement you provided is. 'The following action that meets this description is murder, unless we say its okay, then it's not'

Hey, you brought up the idea that fetuses were protected equally under the law. I was only providing you with evidence to the contrary.

So again I ask, if a law passed that all blacks and Jews could be killed because they annoy lawmakers, and people you know were gunned down because of it simply for being Jewish or Black, you'd support it? Legal murder is still murder, and attempting to use a law to justify it is a weak counterpoint.

Strawman, anyone?

Jews and blacks have constitutionally protected rights to life thanks to the fact that they're born citizens. Fetus? Not born, not a citizen, therefore, no right to life.

Phail.

[eIitebanao]

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

There should be no restrictions on abortions, including age or birth-status. We should strive to create a culture of recreational abortions.

Explain, why should we create a culture where murder can be bought on any street corner?

Perhaps a street corner is not the most appropriate venue, but any and all methods of destroying all the humans and ab-humans not necessary to maintain or improve my lifestyle must be explored.

And here I was called the troll. This one seems far more likely to be a troll then I.


Anyways Jazzberry, I look forward to arguing with you more, you seem to have some sense, even if you are misguided and support murder and attempt to justify it

But, from the way you're saying it, you could say that every soldier in a war that has at least killed one man on the battlefield is considered a murderer. :/

Besides, the fact fetus =/= human.

Therefore,

abortion =/= murder.

[RaveKitten13]

Pro Life Nymph

FriedRooster

Women have more rights than the fetuses tho. People have different opinions than you. Me and some other pro-choicers don't see it as a baby until its born.

And abortion makes a right for someone who has their bright future ahead of them.

What country are you in? In America, all people are offered equal protection under the law. A woman has no more rights then the fetus/baby she is carrying. Whether you call it a baby or not, that's what it is, a baby. You may not see it as such, but that doesn't change that it is a baby, any more then abortion IS murder.

And again, Murder is not a right. We send murderers to prison, or sentence them to die, therefore the law agrees that murder is wrong. As I've said already, two wrongs do not make a right. Tell me, why are you attempting to justify murder?

Actually that isn't 100% true as I'm learning in my Constitutional Issues class. The only type of discrimination that is not allowed (aka 100% equal protection) is racism (and on an even tighter note, that against blacks). Women are allowed to be paid less than a man and can in a rape case (as long as the person they are accusing has never been accused/convicted) end up be the ones on trial. On top of that you have things like the Defense of Marriage Act that denies homosexuals the equal protection of having all states recognize their marriage.

And even if we WERE allowed equal protection as fetuses, I'm allowed to kill someone who is trying to kill me or rape me or infringe on my bodily integrity if that's the only way to end the infringement AT THE TIME I want it to end. If you want a fetus to have the rights of a born person they must also take the responsibilities which means if the only way to end the infringement of them using my uterus against my will ends in their death so be it.

[BlairVoyant]

linaloki

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

The law says, "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

If we go with that, then you can only say that an unborn child/fetus is not a human being, otherwise legalizing abortion is a contradiction in the law.

But in California, the penal code contains an exception that states causing the death of a fetus doesn't apply if it was done with the consent of the woman carrying the pregnancy.

So if legislator Joe Schmo drafted a bill that killing all blacks and Jews was okay because they are annoying, and it passed the House and Senate and was signed by the president, then under definition of murder slaughtering them would not be murder. I think that shows just how hollow the arguement you provided is. 'The following action that meets this description is murder, unless we say its okay, then it's not'

Hey, you brought up the idea that fetuses were protected equally under the law. I was only providing you with evidence to the contrary.

So again I ask, if a law passed that all blacks and Jews could be killed because they annoy lawmakers, and people you know were gunned down because of it simply for being Jewish or Black, you'd support it? Legal murder is still murder, and attempting to use a law to justify it is a weak counterpoint.

Strawman, anyone?

Jews and blacks have constitutionally protected rights to life thanks to the fact that they're born citizens. Fetus? Not born, not a citizen, therefore, no right to life.

Phail.

Oh, lokilokiloki. Don't you know that where I'm from, fetuses have constitutionally protected rights to life thanks to the fact that they're white people. Blacks and Jews? Not white, not people, therefore, no right to life.

*sigh*

[BlairVoyant]

[Shimizu-chan]

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

There should be no restrictions on abortions, including age or birth-status. We should strive to create a culture of recreational abortions.

Explain, why should we create a culture where murder can be bought on any street corner?

Perhaps a street corner is not the most appropriate venue, but any and all methods of destroying all the humans and ab-humans not necessary to maintain or improve my lifestyle must be explored.

And here I was called the troll. This one seems far more likely to be a troll then I.


Anyways Jazzberry, I look forward to arguing with you more, you seem to have some sense, even if you are misguided and support murder and attempt to justify it

But, from the way you're saying it, you could say that every soldier in a war that has at least killed one man on the battlefield is considered a murderer. :/

Besides, the fact fetus =/= human.

Therefore,

abortion =/= murder.

Why not? Unless some country passes a law whereby foreigners have the right to kill their soldiers, it's illegal to do so. They are born, human people. There is intention to kill, if not malice, and it is usually premeditated (on a general level, if not specifically.) What definition of murder does it fail to satisfy?

Also, the fetus IS human. It has human DNA. What we're not qualifying it as is a *person*.

Jesus Christ, you guys. Step it up a notch.

[Masturbating_Rot_Crow]

BlairVoyant

[Shimizu-chan]

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

Pro Life Nymph

AstonishingMockCongler

There should be no restrictions on abortions, including age or birth-status. We should strive to create a culture of recreational abortions.

Explain, why should we create a culture where murder can be bought on any street corner?

Perhaps a street corner is not the most appropriate venue, but any and all methods of destroying all the humans and ab-humans not necessary to maintain or improve my lifestyle must be explored.

And here I was called the troll. This one seems far more likely to be a troll then I.


Anyways Jazzberry, I look forward to arguing with you more, you seem to have some sense, even if you are misguided and support murder and attempt to justify it

But, from the way you're saying it, you could say that every soldier in a war that has at least killed one man on the battlefield is considered a murderer. :/

Besides, the fact fetus =/= human.

Therefore,

abortion =/= murder.

Why not? Unless some country passes a law whereby foreigners have the right to kill their soldiers, it's illegal to do so. They are born, human people. There is intention to kill, if not malice, and it is usually premeditated (on a general level, if not specifically.) What definition of murder does it fail to satisfy?

Also, the fetus IS human. It has human DNA. What we're not qualifying it as is a *person*.

Jesus Christ, you guys. Step it up a notch.

The rights of a person are bestowed upon you at birth.
Thus, if it is not born, is has not granted the rights of personhood. Still, not that it would matter, because even if it had, those rights are given up when one person uses another person's body without consent, at which time the person being used may remove the other, even with lethal force.

[Kata Samoes]

Pro Life Nymph

Abortion is murder, and any doctor or woman who has an abortion should be either imprisoned for life, or sentenced to death.

Why? Oh yes, because abortion OFFENDS you it's automatically murder. One problem: Abortion =/= Murder.

Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Law.com

Murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute, many states consider a killing in which there is torture, movement of the person before the killing (kidnapping) or the death of a police officer or prison guard, or it was as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), to be first degree murder, with or without premeditation and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life of others (such as firing a gun into a crowd or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. A charge of murder requires that the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus. Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought.

Since murder is a legal term, and not a moral one, it is legally defined in the US, Canada, UK, and parts of Europe as above: the "illegal killing of another person with malicious intent."

Abortion is legal. Murder is not.
Abortion involves a fetus. Murder involves a person.
Abortion patients have varying intents. Murderers have one.

By the legal definition considering who is a person, they must be born alive. A fetus is not outside of the womb unless born. When born, it gains legal personhood.

Even then, the action would have to have a malicious intent, which cannot be proven what the intent was during elective abortions.

Pro Life Nymph

I have yet to see a good excuse for abortion.

I have: her choice, not yours.

Pro Life Nymph

Even the mother's life is a poor excuse.

Then you're a hypocrite, and not actually pro-LIFE.

Pro Life Nymph

Women exist to carry babies to term.

Can you prove that?

Pro Life Nymph

Even if you die in the process, so what, the baby can and will live on.

How do we know this? Process of what?

Pro Life Nymph

And if you and the baby die, then so be it, your genetics were obviously inferior and should never be passed.

According to whom? You?

Thank God you're not an authority on that. Wow.

Pro Life Nymph

So what if you're trying to claim it's your body, your choice? Was it the baby's choice to be placed in your uterus? No, you had sex, and allowed a p***s into you, then you allowed it to shoot sperm into you.

You're ignoring the concept and existence of condoms and birth control medication.

Pro Life Nymph

You made the choice that put the baby there, you live with your choice.

Not really, no. onsent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy, only the risk. Risk =/= result, as pregnancy is not guaranteed every time you have sex, so there is no responsibility for the woman to be, or stay, pregnant.

I believe Moniquill puts it nicely:

"Consent to sex=/=Consent to sperm in the uterus. Consent to sperm in the uterus=/=Consent to conception. Consent to conception=/=consent to implantation. Consent to implantation=/= consent to pregnancy. Consent to pregnancy=/= consent to carry to term. Consent, by its nature, must be EXPRESS and ONGOING. It can be withdrawn, and unless it's directly spelled out, it cannot be assumed."

Women cannot control if, when, or HOW they conceive. Fault does not exist there. Sex is not the only source of pregnancy.

Sex also has many functions, none of them a primary purpose unless chosen by the couple.

Here are the functions of sex, in no order:
Fun
Exercise
Pleasure
Pro-creation
Bonding
Spiritual
Experimental
Passing time
Relief
Relaxation

And humans are not the only ones who have sex for reasons other than pro-creation: READ.

Do not assume every unwanted pregnancy is the result of consensual sex. They may result due to sexual abuse, rape, or the contraception/birth control simply failed.

Thus, due to freedom of choice and personal morals, abortion is a right and a choice for all women.

Pro Life Nymph

There is no excuse for murdering a baby because you wanted to get your rocks off.

What baby? Fetus =/= baby, sorry. Babies are BORN.

Pro Life Nymph

And don't even try to say "What about rape". You could easily fight off your attacker, or die in the process.

You've never gotten raped, have you?

Pro Life Nymph

Being raped is a copout, as you simply didn't put up enough effort to prevent it from happening. I've had four guys attempt to rape me, two of whom I had thought were friends. It's not that hard to fight off a rapist, even one with a weapon.

You're lying through your teeth. You have NO idea what's rape is like (considering, if they entered your without permission and had unwilling sex, it's rape). YOU are not ALL WOMEN anyways, so that's a bad example.

Pro Life Nymph

If you were raped and became pregnant, you simply weren't trying hard enough to not get raped.

Bullshit. Or he was actually too strong, or she was scared to death because he threatened her or held a weapon to her head.

You have no ******** idea what goes through the mind of a rape victim. Stop acting like you do.

[linaloki]

BlairVoyant

linaloki

Pro Life Nymph

Jazzberry

Pro Life Nymph

So if legislator Joe Schmo drafted a bill that killing all blacks and Jews was okay because they are annoying, and it passed the House and Senate and was signed by the president, then under definition of murder slaughtering them would not be murder. I think that shows just how hollow the arguement you provided is. 'The following action that meets this description is murder, unless we say its okay, then it's not'

Hey, you brought up the idea that fetuses were protected equally under the law. I was only providing you with evidence to the contrary.

So again I ask, if a law passed that all blacks and Jews could be killed because they annoy lawmakers, and people you know were gunned down because of it simply for being Jewish or Black, you'd support it? Legal murder is still murder, and attempting to use a law to justify it is a weak counterpoint.

Strawman, anyone?

Jews and blacks have constitutionally protected rights to life thanks to the fact that they're born citizens. Fetus? Not born, not a citizen, therefore, no right to life.

Phail.

Oh, lokilokiloki. Don't you know that where I'm from, fetuses have constitutionally protected rights to life thanks to the fact that they're white people. Blacks and Jews? Not white, not people, therefore, no right to life.

*sigh*

Where you're from needs some workings up then. wink

I haven't seen too many countries that grant their rights to the unborn, though. Seems to be a trend.