The Abortion Debate

[Aloha Loi Helena]

Ottery

Sometimes, when someone is addicted to something, quitting isn't easy. "I'm addicted to drugs gah oh wait I'm preggers now okay no longer addicted to drugs lul" It doesn't happen like that. It is hard. Not everyone could manage that so easy for the baby, even if they wanted to and tried their hardest. Sometimes, an abortion is just the better choice for both involved. The mother and child.

I cannot see how. I mean there is such a thing as a fate worse than death. But I don't see most mothers being such a fate. Even druggie mothers have hearts and feel love.

Don't you enjoy your life Ottery? I think it is worth the effort and the pains in the a**. If the woman were really and truly a hairball nutcase on acid, then ... but even still if she can give the baby up for adoption, there are many who would even take the baby of a Sasquatch if it were a newborn.

[Aloha Loi Helena]

ottery

Aloha Loi Helena

Ottery

Not all people wan't kids, you know. I'm 20, and I am going in to get my tubes ties in a couple of months. Best decision of my life. Also, there is nothing wrong with being selfish. If someone wants an abortion, then they will get it, no matter what

Ottery, over on the Healing the Abortion Controversy thread, someone told us that you cannot receive a tubal ligation or something weird with that like until you are a certain age or have children.

I was thinking that would be even more of a right of a woman's own body to be sterilized than even having children. Only reasons such a person might change their mind is if they need to give birth to their own kidney donor or something wicked like that. Which ain't a good reason to have a child. Don't you agree.

So, Ottery, how were you able to find a doctor, or is this information false or does it vary from state to state? Or, do you live in another country, sorry for assuming everyone is American. redface

I live in the lovely state of Oregon, and I had to work very hard to achieve this. I had to go through counceling, save up a bunch of money, and then convince the doctor that I wouldn't change my mind. It wasn't easy, but I fought for it.

My Mom is Noora of God. She is your neighbor in Seattle. What town in Oregon?

[ottery]

Aloha Loi Helena

Ottery

You make it seem so trivial... You would rather someone who is either poor, has some medical problems, or has psycholigical problems give birth to a child just so it can rot in the adoption system? It's already chock full of kids, and it's also ageist, sexist, and racist. All the white newborns go first, if at all. To me, its more selfish to have a child and dump the responsability on someone else, than it is to take the responsability to abort.

It is the children who are older and who have been abused by their parents or sexualized by molestation who rot.

Fresh newborns get scooped up faster than ice cream on the Fourth of July even if they are the children of druggies or have other problems. There are not enough newborns to go around for all the people who want to adopt.

I am sure you have heard this before. Sorry.

I have, and the older kids are the reason why I don't like putting a child up for adoption. If I were to ever adopt, I would choose an older kid. Skip the diaper and crying all night stage. Anyways, I just wish that more older kids would be adopted. They are suffering, knowing that they are not wanted and little babies are.

[ottery]

Aloha Loi Helena

ottery

Aloha Loi Helena

Ottery

Not all people wan't kids, you know. I'm 20, and I am going in to get my tubes ties in a couple of months. Best decision of my life. Also, there is nothing wrong with being selfish. If someone wants an abortion, then they will get it, no matter what

Ottery, over on the Healing the Abortion Controversy thread, someone told us that you cannot receive a tubal ligation or something weird with that like until you are a certain age or have children.

I was thinking that would be even more of a right of a woman's own body to be sterilized than even having children. Only reasons such a person might change their mind is if they need to give birth to their own kidney donor or something wicked like that. Which ain't a good reason to have a child. Don't you agree.

So, Ottery, how were you able to find a doctor, or is this information false or does it vary from state to state? Or, do you live in another country, sorry for assuming everyone is American. redface

I live in the lovely state of Oregon, and I had to work very hard to achieve this. I had to go through counceling, save up a bunch of money, and then convince the doctor that I wouldn't change my mind. It wasn't easy, but I fought for it.

My Mom is Noora of God. She is your neighbor in Seattle. What town in Oregon?

I live in a small town called Escatada, but I spend more time in Gresham/Portland. I visited seattle once. I was with the school band and I got to play christmas music in the capital building (at least I think that was what it was called. It had a really high domed celiling).

[Aloha Loi Helena]

ottery

Aloha Loi Helena

Ottery

You make it seem so trivial... You would rather someone who is either poor, has some medical problems, or has psycholigical problems give birth to a child just so it can rot in the adoption system? It's already chock full of kids, and it's also ageist, sexist, and racist. All the white newborns go first, if at all. To me, its more selfish to have a child and dump the responsability on someone else, than it is to take the responsability to abort.

It is the children who are older and who have been abused by their parents or sexualized by molestation who rot.

Fresh newborns get scooped up faster than ice cream on the Fourth of July even if they are the children of druggies or have other problems. There are not enough newborns to go around for all the people who want to adopt.

I am sure you have heard this before. Sorry.

I have, and the older kids are the reason why I don't like putting a child up for adoption. If I were to ever adopt, I would choose an older kid. Skip the diaper and crying all night stage. Anyways, I just wish that more older kids would be adopted. They are suffering, knowing that they are not wanted and little babies are.

You have such a pure heart, Ottery. heart Well, I better get going. Have a loving and peaceful Thanksgiving, just the way you like it, honey. Peace Out and Blessed Be!

[ottery]

Aloha Loi Helena

Ottery

Sometimes, when someone is addicted to something, quitting isn't easy. "I'm addicted to drugs gah oh wait I'm preggers now okay no longer addicted to drugs lul" It doesn't happen like that. It is hard. Not everyone could manage that so easy for the baby, even if they wanted to and tried their hardest. Sometimes, an abortion is just the better choice for both involved. The mother and child.

I cannot see how. I mean there is such a thing as a fate worse than death. But I don't see most mothers being such a fate. Even druggie mothers have hearts and feel love.

Don't you enjoy your life Ottery? I think it is worth the effort and the pains in the a**. If the woman were really and truly a hairball nutcase on acid, then ... but even still if she can give the baby up for adoption, there are many who would even take the baby of a Sasquatch if it were a newborn.

Erm... I didn't say that, but I wll answer it anyways. Yes, I enjoy life. I do have periods of depression, but other than that, it's fine. I had a terrible childhood and an abusive mother, so I have a good chance of being abusive, too. I would never want a child to go through what I went through. I belive in quality of life, not quantity.

[ottery]

Aloha Loi Helena

ottery

Aloha Loi Helena

Ottery

You make it seem so trivial... You would rather someone who is either poor, has some medical problems, or has psycholigical problems give birth to a child just so it can rot in the adoption system? It's already chock full of kids, and it's also ageist, sexist, and racist. All the white newborns go first, if at all. To me, its more selfish to have a child and dump the responsability on someone else, than it is to take the responsability to abort.

It is the children who are older and who have been abused by their parents or sexualized by molestation who rot.

Fresh newborns get scooped up faster than ice cream on the Fourth of July even if they are the children of druggies or have other problems. There are not enough newborns to go around for all the people who want to adopt.

I am sure you have heard this before. Sorry.

I have, and the older kids are the reason why I don't like putting a child up for adoption. If I were to ever adopt, I would choose an older kid. Skip the diaper and crying all night stage. Anyways, I just wish that more older kids would be adopted. They are suffering, knowing that they are not wanted and little babies are.

You have such a pure heart, Ottery. heart Well, I better get going. Have a loving and peaceful Thanksgiving, just the way you like it, honey. Peace Out and Blessed Be!

Aww! *blushes* You have a happy thanksgiving, too. Merry meet and merry part. I wish you lots of pumpkin pie with no weight gain. 3nodding

[eIitebanao]

Barely_evil

ottery

Barely_evil

ottery

Barely_evil

Don't you get it?? Miyo, abortion clinics don't "do good" as you say, they are just there to sell you an abortion.

Not all Planned parenhoods do abortions. Also, I go to a planned parenthood that provides abotions, and I get BC. That is very good for me. Also, they don't "sell" you an abortion. They give you all the information on eveything that you can do, and let you make your own desicion. Also, they give out some abortions for free.

Quote:

They don't call you in a few months and ask how's it going! They don't even care if you walk out of their clinic and get hit by a bus.

Bullshit. My clinic calls me every week just to ask how my job search is going and tell me that they believe in me. They also worry about my depression.

Quote:

There's no way that you can tell me that a person that works for an abortion clinic feels that they in someway contribute to the good of mankind.

So choice is this horrible thing, huh?

Quote:

What would be good is that you respect your body. Respect the life that your body can create.

You should respect the life that your body creates. Stop killing skin cells!

Quote:

I know you guys are young, I know most of you can think of a child as a heavy burden, so let's just rip it out and start over when it's more convenient, or when I'm not sleeping with that guy I hardly know, or when I'm not so preoccupied with drugs- is not the answer.

1. Age has nothing to do with it.
2.A child IS a heavy burden.
3.There is no ripping in abortion.
4. You would rather someone who is addicted to drugs have a child? Your just...Cruel... You have no idea... The child is born addicted! You seriously have never heard the cries of a just born baby going through withdrawls. It's heartbreaking.

Quote:

Margaret Sanger's Eugenic Plan for Black Americans

*Planned Parenthood's Racism

If they were a racist organization, then why did they let me, a white person, have one? Also, like it has been stated before, just because the founder was racist, doesn't mean that the orginization is racist.

No, I suggested no such thing, what I do suggest is that a woman who is pregnant stop using drugs and alcohol. But what they usually do is take all the drugs and alcohol they want because they are selfish and get an abortion before it's too late.

age has alot to do with wanting to have a child, when you are a teen you don't want the responsibility of a young child, I know I was once a teenager myself.

Not all people wan't kids, you know. I'm 20, and I am going in to get my tubes ties in a couple of months. Best decision of my life. Also, there is nothing wrong with being selfish. If someone wants an abortion, then they will get it, no matter what.

there is everything wrong with being selfish, that's what's wrong with the world today. no one wants to be "inconvenienced" with another life, for gods sake if you don't want a baby, fine give your baby to someone who does.

You know, learn that being 'selfish' is a part of human nature.

Let's say a civilian lives in a country where famine and poverty is everywhere. He's starving, and he need food. Suppose the US donates food to his village. He doesn't care HOW it's transported, he doesn't care WHO transports it, even if it's some terrorist, he doesn't care if many people die just by transporting the food; he doesn't care about ANYTHING except escaping from starvation. He isn't necessarily a bad person, because really, life is important; he needs to survive. So tell me, is that person someone who doesn't want to be 'inconvenced' with another life?

Also, isn't butting into people's personal life and taking away the right of their own bodily domain just as bad as people who don't give crap for other people's lives? ://

[linaloki]

Barely_evil

Don't you get it?? Miyo, abortion clinics don't "do good" as you say, they are just there to sell you an abortion.

It's now blatantly obvious that you have never ever ever been in or near an abortion clinic.

Barely_evil

They don't call you in a few months and ask how's it going!

Neither does a hospital.

Barely_evil

They don't even care if you walk out of their clinic and get hit by a bus.

Um, yes. They do. Why? Because they have doctors there.

Barely_evil

There's no way that you can tell me that a person that works for an abortion clinic feels that they in someway contribute to the good of mankind.

Um, yes. I can. Because they do. There's no way you can tell me, and not be lying, that you know how people in abortion clinics think.

Barely_evil

What would be good is that you respect your body.

I respect it by removing things that are damaging it.

Barely_evil

Respect the life that your body can create.

Should I respect cancer?

Barely_evil

I know you guys are young,

Says the girl in her early 20s.

Barely_evil

I know most of you can think of a child as a heavy burden, so let's just rip it out and start over when it's more convenient, or when I'm not sleeping with that guy I hardly know, or when I'm not so preoccupied with drugs- is not the answer.

Oh, lawl. So, now, people who get abortions are drugged up sluts. I again point to the large group of married people that have abortions.

Barely_evil

Margaret Sanger's Eugenic Plan for Black Americans

*Planned Parenthood's Racism

Well, let's see... You're a woman... And Eva Braun was a woman who came before you... Obviously, she represents your thoughts, yes?

Oh, and I love how you ignore questions still.

[linaloki]

Barely_evil

linaloki

Barely_evil

Abortion is not a liberating, healthy choice.

Neither is living.

ZOMG.

Barely_evil

In most cases, women who submit to abortions only do so in response to the pressures of circumstance (or other people).

Prove it.

Unless by circumstance you mean being pregnant. Because I can't think of anyone who isn't pregnant having an abortion.

Barely_evil

Often, they simply feel that they have "no choice" but the poor choice of abortion.

Actually, abortion isn't that poor a choice. They're kinda expensive. Making it rich. Very rich. O_O

Oh, and prove it.

Barely_evil

Abortion clinics were originally set up with the intention of slowing the population of Afro-Americans and other racial groups considered mentally or otherwise inferior.

Why hallo thar! It seems like you're equating originality with now-ality, as well as racism with abortion! Please prove that abortion was instated with eugenics in mind.

Barely_evil

Margaret Sanger, mother of Planned Parenthood, advocated abortions on African-Americans in order to eliminate what she called "socially undesirable people".

Yeah. Margaret Sanger? Not the mother of all abortions. Also, not the representative of all abortion clinics. ALSO, not currently in charge.

I mean, Hitler could be called the father of modern Germany with ease. It's an easily defendable argument. Now, he had what we tend consider bad intentions for Germany. Eugenicist ones. Does that make Germany and everything German bad now?

Please, imagine this:

You wake up in the morning and find yourself back-to-back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. If he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but in nine months he will have recovered from his ailment and can safely be unplugged from you.

What do you do?

In response to your scenario, the sweetest playing violinist could compare nothing to having my beautiful child inside me. (have you seen a pic of my daughter? she is stunning btw) If the violinist had asked me in the first place, (if I had prior knowledge) and if this were such a natural thing as maternity, yes I would be his savior.

No you wouldn't. You'd whine and ask if there was some machine to hook him up to. And, yeah. I saw a picture of your daughter. I could care less about her. But not much less. And you kind of ignored, say, my other questions and requests for proof. I wonder why?

[linaloki]

Barely_evil

there is everything wrong with being selfish, that's what's wrong with the world today.

Then why are you so selfish? Why can't you let other people have a choice? Why can only you be right about this?

Barely_evil

no one wants to be "inconvenienced" with another life, for gods sake if you don't want a baby, fine give your baby to someone who does.

No.

Why?

Because if they want a kid, there are several thousand of them in adoption centers they can have.

Why are you so selfish that you won't let another few children under your roof, hm? Or give poor people your money? Or give your car to someone who doesn't have one?

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Barely_evil

Abortion is not a liberating, healthy choice. In most cases, women who submit to abortions only do so in response to the pressures of circumstance (or other people). Often, they simply feel that they have "no choice" but the poor choice of abortion.

Abortion clinics were originally set up with the intention of slowing the population of Afro-Americans and other racial groups considered mentally or otherwise inferior.

Margaret Sanger, mother of Planned Parenthood, advocated abortions on African-Americans in order to eliminate what she called "socially undesirable people".

Proof please

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

vanilabien

Heart of the Fallen Angel

vanilabien

Sadly, the only way the abortion debate can be settled is if someone can scientifically prove that the unborn child is an alive human being, protected to a right to life. And then prove at what stage it is of this status. Or even prove that it is not an alive human being, and even that would be hard to do. People asserting that unborn children have a soul will make little difference to a government that like to keep religious politics out.

No one is debating that a fetus isn't alive. Fetii are living entities of the human species, that much is fact and has been scientifically proven. The issue however is that no human has the right to use a portion of my body without my expressed and ongoing consent.

For example, I am having consentual sex with a man. Half way through, I decide I want him to stop, and tell him to do so. He does not stop, at this point he is now raping me, and I can kill him if necesary to make him stop. Why should a fetus gain rights to use my body without my consent when no other human has that right.

Interesting point. Unfortunately, simply proving that the fetus is a living organism is not sufficient for it to be protected under our government with the rights of a human being. Only if it can be proven to be an alive human being would it be protected by law. One a side note, killing an aggressor to save yourself and killing an innocent who happens to be where you don't want them to be are two completely different things, and are dealt with differently by the criminal justice system.

A fetus, being incapable of guilt, is incapable of being innocent. A fetus can be likened to a tapework in it's method of survival. Both attach to a host and drain nutrients from the host. Neither are agressive in their form of parasitism (granted a fetus is not a parasite, though it has many parasitic qualities), but I see no outcry to save the tape worms. I'm allowed to remove one form of parasitic organism from my body, why should I be forced to keep another?

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Barely_evil

Don't you get it?? Miyo, abortion clinics don't "do good" as you say, they are just there to sell you an abortion. They don't call you in a few months and ask how's it going! They don't even care if you walk out of their clinic and get hit by a bus. There's no way that you can tell me that a person that works for an abortion clinic feels that they in someway contribute to the good of mankind.

I work at a clinic, and we call most of our patients back every couple of months after thier abortion to check up on them, and we encourage them to come back for a follow-up check up to ensure that they are still healthy. We offer psychological assistance if needed, and we insure that any abortion we perform is being done upon women who have decided for themselves, and not because someone else was pushing them to have one. We actually do care very much about our patients, though you wouldn't understand that seeing as you are blindly biased against anything that supports choice. And yes, I do feel that I contribute to the good of mankind, I help to ensure that any child born, is born to a family that truely wants it.

Barely_evil

What would be good is that you respect your body. Respect the life that your body can create. I know you guys are young, I know most of you can think of a child as a heavy burden, so let's just rip it out and start over when it's more convenient, or when I'm not sleeping with that guy I hardly know, or when I'm not so preoccupied with drugs- is not the answer.

I respect my body, whether you believe it or not. As for the life my body can create, it has a great chance of SEVERAL genetic conditions, ranging from Hemophelia to Muscular Dystrophy. Any child I birth is at high risk for potentially life threatening genetic disorders, and those who I could birth that do survive face a lifetime of medical problems. Also, a child IS a burden, just because you have a child doesn't automatically mean that you can care for and raise it. But seriously, you really expect a crack addicted mother who's sleeping with any random street punk just so she can score more rock to be a responsible mother? Isn't it more humane to the fetus to end it's life of suffering before it begins? Are you aware that a child born to a crack addict will be born a crack addict and will have many, many issues AT BIRTH. Assuming that child lives, it can never lead a normal life, and has a high chance of being little more then a living, breathing vegitable, with no capability to ever develop thought, function, or anything that will allow it to do anything beyond simply live in a persistant vegitative state. Though, let's for a moment assume a child is born to a crack addicted mother and has no issues. Do you really feel that having a crack addict mother will do any good for the child? Do you really trust her to be a good, responsible parent?

Sure, it sounds nice to say "I'm trying to save lives" But, what about AFTER birth? Does that even matter to you?

[Noora of God]

Hello Good Women and Men! Here are the ideas we have come up with on the Healing the Abortion Controversy thread. Please read them and then come over to make comments:


Here are the ways to Heal. These work for us.

To Pro Life: Instead of holding signs that say "Abortion is Murder" hold signs that say "We still Love you!" "We still respect you!" "We don't hate you!"



To Pro Life: Do not be the judges of who is the Culture of Death. We are all sinners and we are not called to judge people's motives, their hearts or whether they are condemned to hell or not.

Read John Paul II's message about the Culture of Death like it was your own private mail. Don't shove your mail under someone else's nose.


For Pro Life: Debating about legality is not causing fewer abortions. It is just estranging the people whom we need to reach, perhaps. Think of how to be a better Christian, a better and truer friend and a more powerful prayer partner. Do not pray and ask God to "change" people. Pray instead for God's will to be done. Pray for Divine Health.
Call Abortion Advocacy "Pro Choice" because not all do advocate abortion. Remember that words hurt.



For Pro Life and Pro Choice:

1. Stop name calling

2. Don't put words in other peoples mouths (or posts).

3. Ask questions instead of making statements.

4. Make friends with the opposition and be a true friend not a fakey fake.


For Pro Life and Pro Choice:

The Abortion Debate is worse than a bad case of acne! You may begin to help clear up a few "pimples" if not the entire case of acne by being a better friend and/or Chrisitan. by trying to think of yourself (I am thinking of myself) as the one with the worst case of "acne."

For Pro Life and Pro Choice:

When making a friend, do her the courtesy of reading through her posts and instead of getting huffy, try to just sit with those thoughts, put yourself in her place and try to be compassionate about why she views the subject this way.

Do not pretend to read her heart or her mind and do not attribute bad reasons for why she posts the way she does.

Then pray for her health (do not pray for her to "change" just be a true friend. Give her the Oprah treatment of random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

For Pro-Choice:

Try not to be so literal-minded all the time. You act worse than Fundamentalists half the time. Metaphorically you have different "bibles" and a different set of commandments but you can get worse than preachy and throat-shovey with those!

Don't use bad language toward the lady-likes on the Pro Life side because they cannot read past the "F" word. Also it provokes bad behavior on their part.

Do not make the mistake of underestimating your opponent. Just because she is presenting as Pro-Life does not mean she is retarded.



Areas we need to continue studying:

Why is mythos embraced by Pro Life and rejected by Pro Choice?

Do we have a real language barrier because of literal mindedness and the rejection of mythos?

Does Pro Life really not offer financial solutions for mothers who chose not to abort?


Any other ideas or corrects to the above are encouraged. Remember there are no right or wrong answers. Your crazy idea might be the solution.