The Abortion Debate

[Kata Samoes]

Barely_evil

I was not directing any verbage toward you, your bedroom, your mom or so on. How come you have to be so vulgar anyway? I haven't spoken to you and I hate to read your responses where you quote my posts and use such vulgarity.

Back on topic, you don't have a uterus, you are a man, or atleast I hope you are no woman.

And one last thing for you to get through your thick skull, if you have sex (and you are a woman), you know that there's a probability of pregnancy, consensual or not, you know there are chances of it happening. You know the cause, you know how you can end up. I have no empathy for a person who has your attitude.

Chance of pregnancy is not a guarantee of pregnancy, so if she gets pregnant she did not welcome it. Most likely she tried to prevent it with precautions, and had sex for reasons OTHER than pregnancy!

And just for kicks and giggles, I'll reiterate this FASCINATING concept for you:

Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy, only the risk. Risk =/= result, as pregnancy is not guaranteed every time you have sex, so there is no responsibility for the woman to be, or stay, pregnant.

I believe Moniquill puts it nicely:

"Consent to sex=/=Consent to sperm in the uterus. Consent to sperm in the uterus=/=Consent to conception. Consent to conception=/=consent to implantation. Consent to implantation=/= consent to pregnancy. Consent to pregnancy=/= consent to carry to term. Consent, by its nature, must be EXPRESS and ONGOING. It can be withdrawn, and unless it's directly spelled out, it cannot be assumed."

Women cannot control if, when, or HOW they conceive. Fault does not exist there. Sex is not the only source of pregnancy.

Sex also has many functions, none of them a primary purpose unless chosen by the couple.

Here are the functions of sex, in no order:
Fun
Exercise
Pleasure
Pro-creation
Bonding
Spiritual
Experimental
Passing time
Relief
Relaxation

And humans are not the only ones who have sex for reasons other than pro-creation: READ.

Do not assume every unwanted pregnancy is the result of consensual sex. They may result due to sexual abuse, rape, or the contraception/birth control simply failed.

Thus, due to freedom of choice and personal morals, abortion is a right and a choice for all women.

[Sloth Prince]

I've got another hypothetical, guys.

prolifer on youtube

If a husband said, " I don't want to pay child support for that baby " just before he punched his pregnant wife in the belly, which resulted in the death of the baby, what crimes have been committed?? Now watch these baby killer zombies squirm around and run for the corners.

I responded that, assuming you gave the fetus human rights, it would be murder, since the husband had malicious intent, and the act was unlawful, since he wasn't practicing his right to protect bodily integrity or anything of the sort.

prolifer on youtube

Where is the malicious intent? If the mother kills the baby because she don't want to support the child, is it also malicious intent?

I'd mention that, so long as abortion is legal, it wouldn't be murder, because murder is the unlawful killing of another person. But that doesn't seem to really answer the question. Would aborting solely because you didn't want to support the child later be considered malicious? Does it even matter?

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Barely_evil

Manslaughter is by definition an action of criminal neglect that leads to a death. You don't have to take any action to have a miscarriage.

Going to the doctor and asking for an abortion does take forethought.

You don't just end up there by accident.

You don't neglect your pregnancy in some way and "oops," have an abortion.
No matter how you feed it to me, you are not going to justify abortion, except for in your own mind.
That's what people do, they justify their wrongdoings, no matter how silly it sounds to everyone else, they convince themselves that they have done nothing wrong by displacing the blame.
Sorry but you just don't jive with me.

Please, for the love of whatever diety tou worship, stop with the in-post sigs, they're pointless, and stretch the page more then is needed and already done by quotes in quotes.

Also, don't you dare even try to call abortion murder ever again, it's not.

Law.com says

Murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute, many states consider a killing in which there is torture, movement of the person before the killing (kidnapping) or the death of a police officer or prison guard, or it was as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), to be first degree murder, with or without premeditation and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life of others (such as firing a gun into a crowd or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. A charge of murder requires that the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus. Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought.

And I have no need justify anything pertaining to having had an abortion. There was nothing wrong with having an abortion, no matter how much you believe there is. Please, I'm begging you, PROVE THAT ABORTION IS WRONG OR ********!!!!

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Chaotic Muffin

I've got another hypothetical, guys.

prolifer on youtube

If a husband said, " I don't want to pay child support for that baby " just before he punched his pregnant wife in the belly, which resulted in the death of the baby, what crimes have been committed?? Now watch these baby killer zombies squirm around and run for the corners.

I responded that, assuming you gave the fetus human rights, it would be murder, since the husband had malicious intent, and the act was unlawful, since he wasn't practicing his right to protect bodily integrity or anything of the sort.

prolifer on youtube

Where is the malicious intent? If the mother kills the baby because she don't want to support the child, is it also malicious intent?

I'd mention that, so long as abortion is legal, it wouldn't be murder, because murder is the unlawful killing of another person. But that doesn't seem to really answer the question. Would aborting solely because you didn't want to support the child later be considered malicious? Does it even matter?

If you need to respond to that hypothetical, I believe the definition I've repeatedly provided for murder explains it away. I'll repost it again to be sure.

Law.com says

Murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute, many states consider a killing in which there is torture, movement of the person before the killing (kidnapping) or the death of a police officer or prison guard, or it was as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), to be first degree murder, with or without premeditation and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life of others (such as firing a gun into a crowd or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. A charge of murder requires that the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus. Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought.

[Kata Samoes]

Barely_evil

RubberDuckOfHell

Barely_evil

Do we give the mother the legal right to kill the two-year- old daughter who is a burden to her? Why and how can we give her the legal right to kill the two-month-old daughter living inside her who is a burden to her?

Think of the logic of the inevitable extension of such a freedom to kill. We could solve poverty by killing unwanted poor people, or religious or political groups, or those too old, too burdensome, and on and on . . .

Women have the duty not to kill their unborn babies.

Murder (by abortion or any other name) should be illegal in a moral society.

Ok, I am sorry, but this is the weakest, most irrelevant argument I have seen yet.

There a distinct difference between a two-year-old toddler and a two-month-old fetus. Sentience, plus the fact that the two-year-old is BORN. Same with unwanted poor people, religious or political groups, the elderly, the mentally handicapped, the mentally insane, etc., etc., etc.

And what duty do I have not to kill unborn fetuses? By the way, it's a FETUS. A BABY is that cute babbling, dribbling, cooing, crying, pooping thing that everyone goes crazy over.

Murder and abortion are not the same. MURDER is the killing of one PERSON by another with MALICE AFORETHOUGHT. Abortion is the termination or the ending of a pregnancy. Hey, while we're calling abortion murder, let's call miscarriages manslaughter. I mean it's the same as calling abortion murder. arrow I mean miscarriage is unintended, manslaughter is unintended, therefore it should be manslaughter right?

Manslaughter is by definition an action of criminal neglect that leads to a death. You don't have to take any action to have a miscarriage.

Going to the doctor and asking for an abortion does take forethought.

You don't just end up there by accident.

You don't neglect your pregnancy in some way and "oops," have an abortion.
No matter how you feed it to me, you are not going to justify abortion, except for in your own mind.
That's what people do, they justify their wrongdoings, no matter how silly it sounds to everyone else, they convince themselves that they have done nothing wrong by displacing the blame.
Sorry but you just don't jive with me.

Your argument still has a flaw: where's the malice?

And some women DO neglect their pregnancy and "oops" have an abortion: it's called a miscarriage. Even induced, it's STILL a miscarriage and abortion. Try overloading on Vitamin C sometime if you don't believe me.

How is abortion wrong? You've never fully explained that, just that you disagree with it and why.

[Sloth Prince]

Heart of the Fallen Angel

Chaotic Muffin

I've got another hypothetical, guys.

prolifer on youtube

If a husband said, " I don't want to pay child support for that baby " just before he punched his pregnant wife in the belly, which resulted in the death of the baby, what crimes have been committed?? Now watch these baby killer zombies squirm around and run for the corners.

I responded that, assuming you gave the fetus human rights, it would be murder, since the husband had malicious intent, and the act was unlawful, since he wasn't practicing his right to protect bodily integrity or anything of the sort.

prolifer on youtube

Where is the malicious intent? If the mother kills the baby because she don't want to support the child, is it also malicious intent?

I'd mention that, so long as abortion is legal, it wouldn't be murder, because murder is the unlawful killing of another person. But that doesn't seem to really answer the question. Would aborting solely because you didn't want to support the child later be considered malicious? Does it even matter?

If you need to respond to that hypothetical, I believe the definition I've repeatedly provided for murder explains it away. I'll repost it again to be sure.

Law.com says

Murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute, many states consider a killing in which there is torture, movement of the person before the killing (kidnapping) or the death of a police officer or prison guard, or it was as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), to be first degree murder, with or without premeditation and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life of others (such as firing a gun into a crowd or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. A charge of murder requires that the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus. Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought.

So the malicious intent is completely irrelevant, since the act itself is legal?

[WitheringRoseOfDecay]

kata, she's not gonna explain why it's wrong. she has no valid reason, other than 'it's murder!' or something equally stupid. she's got to be the most annoying anti-choice twit i've seen on here.

[Debonair Silver Dragonair]

Chaotic Muffin

I've got another hypothetical, guys.

prolifer on youtube

If a husband said, " I don't want to pay child support for that baby " just before he punched his pregnant wife in the belly, which resulted in the death of the baby, what crimes have been committed?? Now watch these baby killer zombies squirm around and run for the corners.

I responded that, assuming you gave the fetus human rights, it would be murder, since the husband had malicious intent, and the act was unlawful, since he wasn't practicing his right to protect bodily integrity or anything of the sort.

prolifer on youtube

Where is the malicious intent? If the mother kills the baby because she don't want to support the child, is it also malicious intent?

I'd mention that, so long as abortion is legal, it wouldn't be murder, because murder is the unlawful killing of another person. But that doesn't seem to really answer the question. Would aborting solely because you didn't want to support the child later be considered malicious? Does it even matter?

Depends on jurisdiction, and also what happened- did she go into early labour? I'd say he should be prosecuted for abusing his wife.

And also, I need to clear something up about malicious intent.

Quote:

Um, actual malice does not have to be involved for something to be murder. The "malice aforethought" part dates back to the seventeenth century, and should not be interpreted to mean that murder is not murder unless the perpetrator hates the victim.

The full quote is: "Murder is when a man of sound memory and of the age of discretion, unlawfully killeth within any county of the realm any reasonable creature in rerum natura under the King's peace, with malice aforethought , either expressed by the party or implied by law, so as the party wo, or hurt etc. die of the wound or hurt etc.within a year and a day of the same."

The "malice aforethought" is meant to distinguish intentional, planned killing from an impulse borne out of anger (manslaughter on grounds of provocation). Depending on how you interpret "either expressed by the party or implied by law" it could show that LJ Coke, who wrote it, simply could not visualise a situation where someone "of sound memory and of the age of discretion, unlawfully killeth within any county of the realm any reasonable creature in rerum natura under the King's peace," might kill another without malicious intent.

If you consider the current legal status of euthanasia in America and England (excluding Oregon, and R v Adams (1957), which I think is shown to be a blip caused by a sympathetic jury), it is obvious that murder does not require malice to be murder.

I don't know the US legal position on conditional intention in murder, but if it is similar to that of England and Wales, it again proves that malice is not required for murder.

[Veolin]

Kata Samoes

Barely_evil

RubberDuckOfHell

Barely_evil

Do we give the mother the legal right to kill the two-year- old daughter who is a burden to her? Why and how can we give her the legal right to kill the two-month-old daughter living inside her who is a burden to her?

Think of the logic of the inevitable extension of such a freedom to kill. We could solve poverty by killing unwanted poor people, or religious or political groups, or those too old, too burdensome, and on and on . . .

Women have the duty not to kill their unborn babies.

Murder (by abortion or any other name) should be illegal in a moral society.

Ok, I am sorry, but this is the weakest, most irrelevant argument I have seen yet.

There a distinct difference between a two-year-old toddler and a two-month-old fetus. Sentience, plus the fact that the two-year-old is BORN. Same with unwanted poor people, religious or political groups, the elderly, the mentally handicapped, the mentally insane, etc., etc., etc.

And what duty do I have not to kill unborn fetuses? By the way, it's a FETUS. A BABY is that cute babbling, dribbling, cooing, crying, pooping thing that everyone goes crazy over.

Murder and abortion are not the same. MURDER is the killing of one PERSON by another with MALICE AFORETHOUGHT. Abortion is the termination or the ending of a pregnancy. Hey, while we're calling abortion murder, let's call miscarriages manslaughter. I mean it's the same as calling abortion murder. arrow I mean miscarriage is unintended, manslaughter is unintended, therefore it should be manslaughter right?

Manslaughter is by definition an action of criminal neglect that leads to a death. You don't have to take any action to have a miscarriage.

Going to the doctor and asking for an abortion does take forethought.

You don't just end up there by accident.

You don't neglect your pregnancy in some way and "oops," have an abortion.
No matter how you feed it to me, you are not going to justify abortion, except for in your own mind.
That's what people do, they justify their wrongdoings, no matter how silly it sounds to everyone else, they convince themselves that they have done nothing wrong by displacing the blame.
Sorry but you just don't jive with me.

Your argument still has a flaw: where's the malice?

And some women DO neglect their pregnancy and "oops" have an abortion: it's called a miscarriage. Even induced, it's STILL a miscarriage and abortion. Try overloading on Vitamin C sometime if you don't believe me.

How is abortion wrong? You've never fully explained that, just that you disagree with it and why.

Agreed. Otherwise how could a woman have a misscarrage from ignoring potential daingers to her pregnency by say, drinking a lot of alchohol? There in its self is a neglect of pregnency.

[Raina Luxe]

WitheringRoseOfDecay

Barely_evil

WitheringRoseOfDecay

Barely_evil

I highly recommend you have a hysterectomy if you don't want your body used against your consent.

When you can consent to sex and not consent to it's reaction (sex=baby), I think there is something very wrong with you.

i highly recommend you stay the ******** out of my bedroom AND my uterus. consent to sex IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE consent to pregnancy. get that through your thick skull.

I was not directing any verbage toward you, your bedroom, your mom or so on. How come you have to be so vulgar anyway? I haven't spoken to you and I hate to read your responses where you quote my posts and use such vulgarity.

Back on topic, you don't have a uterus, you are a man, or atleast I hope you are no woman.

And one last thing for you to get through your thick skull, if you have sex (and you are a woman), you know that there's a probability of pregnancy, consensual or not, you know there are chances of it happening. You know the cause, you know how you can end up. I have no empathy for a person who has your attitude.

hey dumbass, i'm female. are you blind or just normally this idiotic? my attitude is bad? who's the one who doesn't care about her own gender? who's the one who thinks feoti are more important than women? not i. you're a disgrace to my gender.

Thnx for not using the vulgarity this time. (not being sarcastic) Sorry I thought you were in drag. I do care about my own gender. Very much so. Did you know that having multiple abortions can contribute to breast cancer, promiscuity, and depression? I don't think that feoti are more important than women, but I do think that they deserve the chance we have been given.

I think as women being the intelligent creatures we are, should revel in the fact that we are the ones to bring life unto this earth. We shouldn't waste this gift, nor should we abuse it.

No not a disgrace here, I'm a good woman.

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Chaotic Muffin

So the malicious intent is completely irrelevant, since the act itself is legal?

The act itself would ammount to assault upon her person, and likely bring up manslaughter charges as well

[Suicide_Boy2120]

Adoption is the solution to unwanted PARENTHOOD not pregnancy

[Veolin]

Barely_evil

WitheringRoseOfDecay

Barely_evil

WitheringRoseOfDecay

Barely_evil

I highly recommend you have a hysterectomy if you don't want your body used against your consent.

When you can consent to sex and not consent to it's reaction (sex=baby), I think there is something very wrong with you.

i highly recommend you stay the ******** out of my bedroom AND my uterus. consent to sex IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE consent to pregnancy. get that through your thick skull.

I was not directing any verbage toward you, your bedroom, your mom or so on. How come you have to be so vulgar anyway? I haven't spoken to you and I hate to read your responses where you quote my posts and use such vulgarity.

Back on topic, you don't have a uterus, you are a man, or atleast I hope you are no woman.

And one last thing for you to get through your thick skull, if you have sex (and you are a woman), you know that there's a probability of pregnancy, consensual or not, you know there are chances of it happening. You know the cause, you know how you can end up. I have no empathy for a person who has your attitude.

hey dumbass, i'm female. are you blind or just normally this idiotic? my attitude is bad? who's the one who doesn't care about her own gender? who's the one who thinks feoti are more important than women? not i. you're a disgrace to my gender.

Thnx for not using the vulgarity this time. (not being sarcastic) Sorry I thought you were in drag. I do care about my own gender. Very much so. Did you know that having multiple abortions can contribute to breast cancer, promiscuity, and depression? I don't think that feoti are more important than women, but I do think that they deserve the chance we have been given.

I think as women being the intelligent creatures we are, should revel in the fact that we are the ones to bring life unto this earth. We shouldn't waste this gift, nor should we abuse it.

No not a disgrace here, I'm a good woman.

Just on the whole depression argument, have you ever paid attention to the number of women hospitalized for post partum depression after delivering a child? Depression isnt only restricted to abortion.

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Barely_evil

Thnx for not using the vulgarity this time. (not being sarcastic) Sorry I thought you were in drag. I do care about my own gender. Very much so. Did you know that having multiple abortions can contribute to breast cancer, promiscuity, and depression? I don't think that feoti are more important than women, but I do think that they deserve the chance we have been given.

Prove that multiple abortions cause cancer, explain why promiscuity is a bad thing, and prove that abortions cause depression. I've had an abortion and I've never suffered depression for it. Finally, that aborted fetus did have a chance, it's chance ended in abortion.

Barely_evil

I think as women being the intelligent creatures we are, should revel in the fact that we are the ones to bring life unto this earth. We shouldn't waste this gift, nor should we abuse it.

I think of my fertility as a curse, as I NEVER want children, and that one fact is the strongest reason why I cannot bring myself to be bisexual instead of gay. I NEVER want to risk being pregnant (and women are so much more fun in bed). What one calls a gift may be a curse to another, Got it?

[Veolin]

Suicide_Boy2120

Adoption is the solution to unwanted PARENTHOOD not pregnancy

I have to disagree. Ive known people who would opt to have an abortion because they dont want to go through the physical pains and such of pregnency, but would also very much so like to adopt.

EDIT: In relation to the striked out part, I misred the post and thought you said Abortion, not adoption.