The Abortion Debate

[The_Thread _Reaper]

Yuka Okayoru

i am the child of a very young mother. i was adopted and to say that I didn't deserve to live is insulting. abortion is wrong. my mother had that choice and here i stand today a college student who is going to do his best to make a difference.

Yes, she HAD her choice and chose to have you anyway and give you the life you're living through now. She wasn't coerced or forced to go through with it against her will (as far as I know). She had you when abortion was legal, and what does that show you? Women can make their own decisions, and they are the ONLY ones who will know what they can bear to go through at any point of time in their lives.

The pro-choice side has NEVER agreed and said that fetuses don't deserve to live. Pro-Choice strictly means Pro-Choice, the mother is the one who has to sacrifice part of HER life and HER time and let the fetus use HER body in order to bring a fetus to term, so the pro-choice side argues that SHE is the one who should have a say in whether or not she is ready to go through with it or not.

Because..life is a gift, and a forced gift isn't a gift at all. If anything, forcing someone to give the gift of life is devaluing that gesture of meaning. It means a lot more if that gift is given out of the kindness of her own heart and of her own free will.

[kanarthi]

Spidermonkey323

Seeing the Kraken

Also, the clitoris and female orgasm are not needed to procreate. So tell me... what's their function again?

Orgasms secrete oxytocin which according to the wikiness 2 which was handed 2 me by u all 2 LEEEARN bout oxtocin, it creates monogamous pair bonding which would be necessary if a child will b raised w/ both parents. It unclogs the uterus so that the baby doesn't get stuck within the fallopian tubes, helps in getting breasts to develop milk It also according to the wikiness provokes maternal behavior... Ur wikiness dun like u guys. @w@ maybe y'all wanna find another source for ppl to learn about this?

Stimulating oxytocin at the time of conception seems a little too far from birth to help with milk production or uterine contractions. So what's the function of the female orgasm?

Here's a non-wiki oxytocin source, if you like.

Also, take into account that most women don't experience orgasm from PIV sex. (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7481.html has percentages of women who reach orgasm from PIV sex. Their source is a survey that asked the women. There are some details on how they did the survey.)

[Deformography]

Spidermonkey323

Quote:

Well, you haven't really refuted those articles, either. All you did was pick at them.

Yes cause they r not very valid. It is not enough for it 2 come from a source u thinks reputable. U need to have a source involves study that can stand on it's own 2 legs. I am not saying it is false that it's essential for health. But cause we dun know I say its opinion. So I'm not trying 2 prove it false (dat would be unscientific), simply that u dun know 2 say it is a defnate fact. All I have 2 do is point out the flaws in ur source. I dun need 2 prove my point. Do U ask an agnostic to prove how we r unsure there is or is not God? No. Think of wat I'm saying sommat like that.

And yet, you have not shown that the articles are invalid.

How is trying to prove something false unscientific?

You ALWAYS need to prove your point. You're an idiot if you think that you are somehow above needing to prove your point.

Quote:

Quote:

There is more than enough information in the articles to take them seriously. You just refuse to, because they disagree with you.

No I refuse because there ISN'T enough info. Scientists r supposed to look for the creds, details of the studies, n so fourth. Uve been hailing this 1 Yale person the whole time n even then the connection 2wards her PhD and some of the things she say havent been done. U also ignore most of the researchers creds are unknown 2. As well as details on the study. UR the one who refuse to accept because U want to think ur opinion is fact ovr every 1 elses.

Pay attention to ******** user names: I haven't been hailing ANYTHING.

How about this: saying that the information is invalid due to someone's credentials, or lack thereof, is a LOGICAL FALLACY. It's an APPEAL TO AUTHORITY. You are basically saying "I dun noez dis persunz creds so dey must b rongz!!!!1112"

When I learned how to evaluate sources, your little fallacy never came up.

Quote:

Quote:

Here's how it works: people who are much smarter than you perform and publish studies. Then, newspapers, magazines, and other such publications summarize the studies and publish the summaries so that people can understand them. So, naturally they aren't going to give every single bit of information included in the study. You want it that badly? Go find them (though, it may not be possible to find the studies online).

Screw U. The burden of proof is on U 2 prove it. I'm not out to prove ur own dam points right. U assume these ppl r smarter or that they did good research. We r still in the darkages. News magazines publish summaries but they r not enough to know whether or not they r legit. So they r useless. I'm not falling for this appeal to authority BS.

They aren't even my points! PAY ATTENTION!

The information provided is sufficient. So, anything beyond that is up to you to find.

Your own nitpicking is a huge appeal to authority!

Quote:

Quote:

There's no ad hominem attack (and the fact that you think it was one just further proves to me that you don't know what you're talking about).

U did ad hom because ur talking about me and my creds n not the substance of wat I'm saying and ur doing it again.

No, I'm not. I never said "omg ur creds suxxorz so u musst b teh rongz!!!!111", which would actually be an appeal to AUTHORITY, not an ad hominem attack. An ad hom would be me saying "you're being a c**t, so you must be wrong." So, I never used an ad hominem attack against you.

Anyone know what this has to do with abortion?

[YuriNoHikari]

OT, as I see you guys are having quite a debate here, but I really felt the need to share with ya'll what I saw today. Some kids at my school decided to do 'silent day' for aborted fetuses and a lot of us felt it was a little ridiculous. Not because we thought the pro-life stance was dumb, but because a lot of the kids at are school have no clue what their stance, or even abortion and pregnancy for that matter, entails.

Anyways, I was in my yearbook class when I saw that one of the girls who had come in with a LIFE tape on her face had taken it off and was even talking. I come to find out that, while a few other choicers and myself were talking about it, she had decided she really was pro-choice.

I felt accomplished. >< And there were plenty of 'conversions' today. Just more of a reason for me to want to educate my peers more.

Tomorrow I wear my choice on my neck. Silence is defeat. Say it loud and proud. Pro-choice.

Okay, back to the debating, sorry for the derailment. :3

[Sakujo Rage]

Here Im gonna say this simple and fast. Women should be allowed to get abortions if they want to. Its not up to us its up to them.

[DemonessOfSorrow]

Yuka Okayoru

i am the child of a very young mother. i was adopted and to say that I didn't deserve to live is insulting. abortion is wrong. my mother had that choice and here i stand today a college student who is going to do his best to make a difference.

um no one said you didn't deserve life. your mom CHOSE to have you. other women CHOOSE to have abortions. see how wonderful CHOICE is?

[Willypeet]

IMO, its probably best to ignore spidermonkey until she can be bothered to type properly and use proper debate form. She says she types the way she does to "save time", and yet the atrocious netspeak forces you to read her posts 10 times over to understand what in gods name shes talking about. rolleyes Not worth the effort when she cant even be bothered to read our replies in full.

As to Yuka:

I dont recall anyone saying that you didnt deserve to live. No pro-choicer would have told your mother that she MUST abort. Thats the polar opposite of pro-choice ideals.

As you said herself - she had that choice, and choice is what we support.

[Tragic Christmas]

Oxytocin does not "unclog" anything, let alone a uterus.
"Babies" do not grow in fallopian tubes, unless you're talking about an abnormal and lethal ectopic pregnancy where the fertilized egg has failed to implant properly.

I'm hoping it is a troll, because no one with an elementary level knowledge of reproductive biology could possibly be that ignorant about female anatomy.

P.S. There are plenty of adopted pro-choicers who don't use their birth status as an excuse to flaunt a persecution complex.

[SilverDratini]

akswimmergirl

For all of those people who say "It isn't a baby... it is a fetus"....
Did you all know that the word fetus comes from a Latin word meaning life? Did you ? Did you? wink

Bad news, girl. I study Latin. And I do not appreciate people molesting it on the internet!
There are two words.
fetus adj pregnant; newly delivered; (fig) productive, full of.

fetus, -us (fourth declension noun, male) breeding, bearing, producing; brood, young; fruit, produce; (fig) production.

[Windfiar]

Mistress DragonFlame

RebelliousSong

Perhaps one could say that i am pro life personal.. however i am 14, and i have no idea what situations will arise in my life... so i guess i am just pro choice. I want to make a note that noone ins Anti-Life. No person who supports abortion rights does so beacuse they hate life or oppose life in some way.

Suprisingly, there are some people who wish EVERY pregancy EVER ends in abortion. That is anti-life.

Wouldn't they be against themselves then? They should go commit suicide and make everyone's life better.

Back onto the matter at hand, I think that the woman has choice for herself. I am not supportive of using it for last minute birth control, but if the woman wants to, that's her choice. It is NOT murder for this reason: Homicide is the killing of one human being by another. A fetus is NOT a human yet. An abortions high points are:
1. They can prevent an unwanted pregnancy.
2. They can bring some woman more comfort knowing that the fetus is being removed professionaly, rather than her having to kill the fetus herself (there have been cases of this).
3. They help some women calm down from a rape, seeing as it gets rid of the main physical reminder.
4. This world is definatley to populated as it is, another human is just one more to overload. (Not that I'm anti-life, we just need to let some of the population die out. We're 6 times over the Earth's estimated holding limit right now.)
Now don't get all whiny, I do have negative effects, and they are:
1. They Devoid someone a chance of life. It does prevent people from getting to live a life.
2. ...that's all I got.

Anyway, abortion should be a choice by the person. Don't try to shut down some women's choices just becuase you have the idea that removing a fetus is murder.

[Spidermonkey323]

Tragic Christmas

Oxytocin does not "unclog" anything, let alone a uterus.
"Babies" do not grow in fallopian tubes, unless you're talking about an abnormal and lethal ectopic pregnancy where the fertilized egg has failed to implant properly.

I nvr said they grow n the fallopian tubes. But they could get stuck due to debris in there.

according 2 their "legit" source.

Quote:

One study suggests that sexual activity might prevent endometriosis, a common gynecological condition that occurs when the tissue lining the inside of a a woman's uterus grows in other places, such as on the ovaries or fallopian tubes. This growth can cause pelvic pain and sometimes infertility.

The legit source talks 'bout relationship between sex & endometriosis

Quote:

According to study author Harvey J. Kliman, MD, PhD, a research scientist at Yale University School of Medicine in New Haven, anything that contributes to menstrual debris going backwards into pelvis might increase risk for endometriosis. The contractions of the uterus that occur during sex, and specifically orgasm, may help push the menstrual debris out of the uterus, Dr. Kliman explains.

Quote:

I'm hoping it is a troll, because no one with an elementary level knowledge of reproductive biology could possibly be that ignorant about female anatomy.

Apparently the other choicers n here r cause its according 2 this wonderfly scientific source they gave me (oh and wikipedia LULZ) that theyve been swearing up and downs legit. Think its stupid? Join the club.

[Shirt Mule]

wow! this is the single most serious conversation in the ENTIRE gaia forums section. biggrin great job

[Spidermonkey323]

Deformography

Spidermonkey323

Quote:

Well, you haven't really refuted those articles, either. All you did was pick at them.

Yes cause they r not very valid. It is not enough for it 2 come from a source u thinks reputable. U need to have a source involves study that can stand on it's own 2 legs. I am not saying it is false that it's essential for health. But cause we dun know I say its opinion. So I'm not trying 2 prove it false (dat would be unscientific), simply that u dun know 2 say it is a defnate fact. All I have 2 do is point out the flaws in ur source. I dun need 2 prove my point. Do U ask an agnostic to prove how we r unsure there is or is not God? No. Think of wat I'm saying sommat like that.

And yet, you have not shown that the articles are invalid.

They r invalid cause the ones I've seen so far dun have the studies. They provide info too vauge 4 us to think 4 ourselves.

Quote:

How is trying to prove something false unscientific?

I was trying 2 say that proving things false is not the only goal scientists have w/ their expiriments.

Quote:

You ALWAYS need to prove your point. You're an idiot if you think that you are somehow above needing to prove your point.

Do u even kno wat my point IS? Most of U have been ncorrect I wonder if U get it. If u do, then tell me how I've not been proving my point?

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There is more than enough information in the articles to take them seriously. You just refuse to, because they disagree with you.

No I refuse because there ISN'T enough info. Scientists r supposed to look for the creds, details of the studies, n so fourth. Uve been hailing this 1 Yale person the whole time n even then the connection 2wards her PhD and some of the things she say havent been done. U also ignore most of the researchers creds are unknown 2. As well as details on the study. UR the one who refuse to accept because U want to think ur opinion is fact ovr every 1 elses.

How about this: saying that the information is invalid due to someone's credentials, or lack thereof, is a LOGICAL FALLACY. It's an APPEAL TO AUTHORITY. You are basically saying "I dun noez dis persunz creds so dey must b rongz!!!!1112"

No I said, I dun know the creds or the study n detail so u cannot kno w/ certainty that that source that is fact. NOT that they have 2 be false.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Here's how it works: people who are much smarter than you perform and publish studies. Then, newspapers, magazines, and other such publications summarize the studies and publish the summaries so that people can understand them. So, naturally they aren't going to give every single bit of information included in the study. You want it that badly? Go find them (though, it may not be possible to find the studies online).

Screw U. The burden of proof is on U 2 prove it. I'm not out to prove ur own dam points right. U assume these ppl r smarter or that they did good research. We r still in the darkages. News magazines publish summaries but they r not enough to know whether or not they r legit. So they r useless. I'm not falling for this appeal to authority BS.

The information provided is sufficient.

Y is it sufficient? IT dun have the studies 2 back it up.

Quote:

Your own nitpicking is a huge appeal to authority!

Lulz. Thinking 4 myself is appeal 2 authority? How?

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There's no ad hominem attack (and the fact that you think it was one just further proves to me that you don't know what you're talking about).

U did ad hom because ur talking about me and my creds n not the substance of wat I'm saying and ur doing it again.

No, I'm not. I never said "omg ur creds suxxorz so u musst b teh rongz!!!!111", which would actually be an appeal to AUTHORITY, not an ad hominem attack.

U didn't address wat I said. Ur just saying wat u didnt do which is evading the point.

Quote:

An ad hom would be me saying "you're being a c**t, so you must be wrong." So, I never used an ad hominem attack against you.

There are more ways 2 commit an ad hom than that. So u tell me how attacking me via whining bout my creds instead of talking bout my point isn't an ad hom.

Quote:

Anyone know what this has to do with abortion?

Ppl have ben saying sex is 4 more than reproduction. That cannot b proven factual tho's wat I said.

[Maruul]

Just a random fact I picked up in the 8th grade: Zebras can abort their unborn babies. It's true. If a pregnant zebra is being chased by a predator, it will automatically abort the fetus to make itself lighter so it can escape to reproduce another day. We saw it on film.
The same should go for humans. There are risks in carrying a child, even for healthy women. I would rather just adopt an unwanted child than risk my self carrying one. As for birth control and stuff: It doesn't always work.
And ooh, fun story! My mom used to work with a women who got pregnant, even after both she and her husband got all fixed up so it wouldn't happen. And I'm surprised they could both even do that. My mother got all that junk removed a couple years ago because of health issues, and it still took forever to convince the doctor that she really didn't want any more children. SHE'S 45 AND SINGLE!

That is all. Feel free to ignore this.

[_C r y s t a l_RB]

Phrynia

IMO, its probably best to ignore spidermonkey until she can be bothered to type properly and use proper debate form.

Agreed. I'm putting him/her on ignore now, because I refuse to pay any attention to people too lazy to push a button that would result in his/her statements making ******** sense.