The Abortion Debate

[divineseraph]

Beatrix the catgirl

divineseraph

Natas Ferret

divineseraph

but it would be viable- it would be able to survive without aid from a biological mother. thus, according to the unborn persons act, i believe it's called, abortion would be illegal.

The UBVA is for wanted pregnancies, that are hit by malicious crimes. Such as the Peterson case. It increases the punishment, for any malicious violence towards pregnant women.
It has little to do with viability, and a lot to do with the mother-to-be.

Even if the embryo is considered viable, there will still be accidents, or faulty equipment.
This is going towards having to consider all sperm and eggs as viable, as well. Since they can already be stored, and used at a later time.

Uh oh, now we're getting close to having to call menstration a crime.

no. seperately, they are not human. they are half of a human- they contain one half of the neccesary genetic material. and yes, there will be accidents, but that is not the point. it's the fact that it can be done- once it is possible, all embryos would be instantly viable.

I think you do not entirely understand the world viable. Viable is being able to survive outside on its own. Until around the fifth month or so, NO fetus is viable. It will still have to have something to offer it sustinence.

then nothing is vaible. you need solar energy to not freeze, and food from outside sources to eat. you are not self sufficient either. in the event of such technological advances, the embry would be able to survive without the need of a human mother- almost as viable as it gets, as vaible as a man or woman in a coma

[divineseraph]

Natas Ferret

divineseraph

no. seperately, they are not human. they are half of a human- they contain one half of the neccesary genetic material. and yes, there will be accidents, but that is not the point. it's the fact that it can be done- once it is possible, all embryos would be instantly viable.

Now you're altering the situation.
A sperm and egg can, with such technology, could easily be joined into an embryo.
Thusly, you would need to protect them as well, since it is so easy to have a viable embryo.

Do not stop short, now, you're on a roll! Soon we could envision outlawing wet dreams!

Also: your court case fails because abortion is not shooting someone with a gun.

-edit- Also: show me a human sperm, or human egg, that isn't human, please.

god, it's a metaphor! and no, unless both parts are present, sperm and egg, there is no human.

[Natas Ferret]

divineseraph

then nothing is vaible. you need solar energy to not freeze, and food from outside sources to eat. you are not self sufficient either. in the event of such technological advances, the embry would be able to survive without the need of a human mother- almost as viable as it gets, as vaible as a man or woman in a coma

Your extrapolating circumstnaces into abstract, and incomparable scenarios is laughable.
If you cannot address the issue of a fetus and it's parasitic nature, without going well beyond the realms of the discussion, perhaps you should rethink your stance.
Or at least better educate yourself.

Comparing the standard life of an adult, to that of a fetus, is futile. The two do not compare, on a biological level.

[paper_phoenix]

divineseraph

"your honor, i chose to point my gun at his head and pull the trigger, but i did not choose for him to die. thus, i am not to be charged for murder- I didn't choose for the bullet to enter his brain, that is an involuntary action."

Your analogy fails. Someone who was pointing a gun at someone and pulls the trigger might not have wanted to harm someone but was not using caution and gun safety. Someone who gets pregnant accidentally was most likely, according to statistics, using contraceptives and practicing safe sex.

[Natas Ferret]

divineseraph

god, it's a metaphor!

And a ******** shitty one, that does nothing but make you look silly.

divineseraph

and no, unless both parts are present, sperm and egg, there is no human.

Bullshit. Check the DNA, it's human DNA. It may not be an embryo, yet. But it would be, if you just put it in an artificial womb!

Why are you denying that sperm and egg from becoming a baby? Huh? Why won't you care about THEIR could-be lives? You care about the fetus, why not the pre-fetus?

[divineseraph]

Natas Ferret

divineseraph

then nothing is vaible. you need solar energy to not freeze, and food from outside sources to eat. you are not self sufficient either. in the event of such technological advances, the embry would be able to survive without the need of a human mother- almost as viable as it gets, as vaible as a man or woman in a coma

Your extrapolating circumstnaces into abstract, and incomparable scenarios is laughable.
If you cannot address the issue of a fetus and it's parasitic nature, without going well beyond the realms of the discussion, perhaps you should rethink your stance.
Or at least better educate yourself.

Comparing the standard life of an adult, to that of a fetus, is futile. The two do not compare, on a biological level.

think about it though- nothing is self sufficinet, nothing can live without the help of outside forces... thus, according to that definition, no life is truly viable.

[Natas Ferret]

divineseraph

think about it though- nothing is self sufficinet, nothing can live without the help of outside forces... thus, according to that definition, no life is truly viable.

No, you need to rethink it:
Viability, of a fetus, is reference to it's lack of being able to fend for itself.

An adult can fend for food.

[ShadowIce]

In my opinion, self sufficiency has nothing to do with personhood or abortion. To me, there are only two arguments for abortion.

1) The zygote/morula/blastocyst/embryo/early stage fetus is not a person. and as such lacks the rights of a person. Brain waves are what makes a person. Without a brain or meaningful brain waves, you are not a person.

2) No person owns the body of another, no matter what. No matter how much you need to use someone's body, no matter how much you have to gain, no matter who or what you are, you cannot own another person's body. Thus, you cannot force them to let you use their body. Sex, bone marrow, organ transplat, or residence in someone's body, it doesn't matter. You have to have permission first. If you don't, you have to leave that person's body alone.

[divineseraph]

Natas Ferret

divineseraph

god, it's a metaphor!

And a ******** shitty one, that does nothing but make you look silly.

divineseraph

and no, unless both parts are present, sperm and egg, there is no human.

Bullshit. Check the DNA, it's human DNA. It may not be an embryo, yet. But it would be, if you just put it in an artificial womb!

Why are you denying that sperm and egg from becoming a baby? Huh? Why won't you care about THEM?

god, ok, i';ll explain it slowly to it so you'll understand- sex is a choice, as is pointing a gun. pulling the trigger is a choice as well- although pregnancy is not a choice, neither, technically, is a bullet entering someone's body. it is merely the effect of the gun powder igniting, sending the bullet through the chamber and out into the air, and eventually into the person of question. although you did not directly choose the action of the bullet entering the person, you did hold the gun, and pull the trigger. is this not the same as having sex and then saying that pregnancy is not voluntary? pregnancy is as voluntary as the bullet entering the person's brain- she still pulled the trigger.

and no, sperm contains 23 chromosomes, while eggs contain a different 23 chromosomes. until they meet, they are not a full human, they are merely genetic material.

[MipsyKitten]

Natas Ferret

divineseraph

think about it though- nothing is self sufficinet, nothing can live without the help of outside forces... thus, according to that definition, no life is truly viable.

A viable person can leave the house and not die on the street.

A viable person's body can handle it's functions. It doesn't need anyone else to pump it's heart, biologically provide food, help excrete waste, regulate their oxygen supply etc.

At 88% of all abortions the fetus can do none of these things. It is not viable.

[divineseraph]

Natas Ferret

divineseraph

think about it though- nothing is self sufficinet, nothing can live without the help of outside forces... thus, according to that definition, no life is truly viable.

No, you need to rethink it:
Viability, of a fetus, is reference to it's lack of being able to fend for itself.

An adult can fend for food.

and what is a fetus doing when it uses it's mother's energy? were it truly unable to fend for itself, it would starve inside the mother.

[Beatrix the catgirl]

divineseraph

Natas Ferret

divineseraph

think about it though- nothing is self sufficinet, nothing can live without the help of outside forces... thus, according to that definition, no life is truly viable.

No, you need to rethink it:
Viability, of a fetus, is reference to it's lack of being able to fend for itself.

An adult can fend for food.

and what is a fetus doing when it uses it's mother's energy? were it truly unable to fend for itself, it would starve inside the mother.

Because of the umbilical cord giving nutrients to the fetus, it doesn't starve. It's still not getting things on it own though, thanks to that umbilical cord.

[MipsyKitten]

divineseraph

and no, sperm contains 23 chromosomes, while eggs contain a different 23 chromosomes. until they meet, they are not a full human, they are merely genetic material.

Wow, that's bullshit. If they weren't human we wouldn't be able to take an egg or sperm and test it to find the species. Did you even take biology in school? Every part of the human body is human. None of it is a different species.

[Natas Ferret]

divineseraph

and what is a fetus doing when it uses it's mother's energy? were it truly unable to fend for itself, it would starve inside the mother.

That is why it is not viable. If the mother stops feeding it, it dies.

However, an adult can go and pick apart a tree, or kill an animal.
A fetus cannot.

As for your gun comparison:
Sex is not designed to kill or for target shooting.
A gun is.
The two do not compare, regardless of what kind of metaphorical scenario you want to drape over it.

A gun is and is only used for shooting something.
Sex is not only used so that someone can get an abortion.

[divineseraph]

MipsyKitten

divineseraph

and no, sperm contains 23 chromosomes, while eggs contain a different 23 chromosomes. until they meet, they are not a full human, they are merely genetic material.

Wow, that's bullshit. If they weren't human we wouldn't be able to take an egg or sperm and test it to find the species. Did you even take biology in school? Every part of the human body is human. None of it is a different species.

you are not listening- i'm not saying that it is not of human origin, i'm saying it's not a seperate human life- it is part of the human it comes from, like a fingernail. once this part mixes with the female part, the chromosomes are combined into a genetically different human.