The Abortion Debate

[JANUX 99]

Beatrix the catgirl

divineseraph

and cancer will develop a heartbeat?

How do you know the fetus will develop a heartbeat? It could be miscarried before then.

True, but how often does cancer develop the same organs as a fetus?

[Katsuya Ishtar]

DiGital Lucifer

Mistress DragonFlame

My Conscience

The most appropriate definition of a person:

Person:

Webster

a : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being;

You may have spent a few hours writing that, but I can disprove it right here.

It says 'Human being' not just human.

Human being = person.

Human =/= person.

Also, to go father, it is also against the law for any person A to take over the command of any other person B, even if the end result for person B is to kill person A for it to stop.

You may not realize it.. But you just proved his point even more.

For one.. A fetus looks like a human; yeah yeah, not at all stages, but even if it doesn't have the apperance, it has the nessessary means to being a real human. Infact, I see no logical explanation of calling it anything other than human.
Thus it's a person.
Secondly, human and human being make absolutely no difference. It is the same thing. Unless you want to say the difference of being dead over alive. Which you might have a chance.

If the fetus is a person, I can and will refer to McFall v. Shimp.

[paper_phoenix]

divineseraph

miss me?

Hadn't even noticed your coming and going.

Quote:

now, let me slap around the "aborshun innint murda cuz it are legal" debate...

This should be interesting. Especially since I've never seen that argument written in pidgin British slang before.

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laws are designed by man based on moral principles

Actually, the laws of man were created to best maintain society, not to reflect morals. How would society even begin to flourish if we were allowed to kill whomever we wished? It would be anarchy, and make trying to survive in this world a much harder feat to achieve.

Quote:

- look at the murder of an adult- what is so wrong about it, really,when it occurs in nature?

Are we talking about adult animals? Since when were animals held to the same laws as man?

I'm not really following you here.

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we are meant to kill, as are all species of animal. the strongest survive, the strongest kill the weak. the weak are supposed to die, by nature. yet we create laws against such things- hospitals must accept even the poor, the sickly. this is due to a moral belief that every human is important and individual. so yes, laws are based on morality.

That's your take on the matter. I think that laws to protect persons were put into effect because we figured out a long time ago that you can't really establish a society if people can kill one another without repercussion. Any morality superimposed onto that was placed there by theists who felt that laws needed the added weight of being attributed to a deity or three.

Quote:

abortion is only legal because a judge nods his head to it. it is made by man, not a God given right- not an inherent property of existance. thus, if his head was to tilt the other way, would it not turn to murder? were abortion illegal, would it be murder? if so, it is murder now. it is one action, sick and horrible, no matter how the caesar turns his thumb.

Not quite. Abortion is legal because to say otherwise would be violating the Constitution-garuanteed right to bodily integrity. It would also be saying that a fetus has the equal rights of a fully developed and sentient person, which is also against the Constitution (it clearly states that rights are only given to born and naturalized citizens, not to unborn ones.)

In case you've forgotten, the Constitution is the document that is the blueprint for our society. What is written on there is how we run our country. The point of the justice system is to make judgements that jive with the Constitution-not to rule based on personal morals or biases.

It also makes mention of "separation of church and state". That means that no God-by whatever name you call him/her-is to be considered when it comes to our laws. So whatever rights you feel that your God thinks we ought to have or not is immaterial.

[Alexandra Trannyth]

DiGital Lucifer

Mistress DragonFlame

My Conscience

The most appropriate definition of a person:

Person:

Webster

a : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being;

You may have spent a few hours writing that, but I can disprove it right here.

It says 'Human being' not just human.

Human being = person.

Human =/= person.

Also, to go father, it is also against the law for any person A to take over the command of any other person B, even if the end result for person B is to kill person A for it to stop.

You may not realize it.. But you just proved his point even more.

For one.. A fetus looks like a human; yeah yeah, not at all stages, but even if it doesn't have the apperance, it has the nessessary means to being a real human. Infact, I see no logical explanation of calling it anything other than human.
Thus it's a person.
Secondly, human and human being make absolutely no difference. It is the same thing. Unless you want to say the difference of being dead over alive. Which you might have a chance.

Human = having human DNA. My heart? A human heart. My hand? A human hand. Both human. Neither are human beings. There is a difference.

[CAPTAIN Plixy[Stix]]

divineseraph

[I am teh Haruka]

divineseraph

yes, but you chose sex. if you choose to put a cancer-stick up your v****a, you deserve cancer.

By saying that, you either are pro-punishment or want children to be punishments.

Maybe both.

no. i am pro life- i will not allow anyone to destroy a human life merely for convenience.

And yet you want women to remain pregnant against their will, punishing them because of something you want.

EDIT: I chose sex. I didn't choose pregnancy. If I get pregnant because the condom broke or the pill didn't work, I'm getting an abortion.

[divineseraph]

malikpossessed

divineseraph

malikpossessed

divineseraph

malikpossessed

If I get pregnant and I didn't want it, I didn't choose it. If the contraceptive fails, not my fault.

yes, but you chose sex. if you choose to put a cancer-stick up your v****a, you deserve cancer.

But people who smoke aren't denied medical treatment when they develop lung cancer.

and cancer will develop a heartbeat?

It can, it has the potential to through cloning. An eratic heartbeat=/=functioning cerebal cortex, because the heart is the only thing in your body that can beat on it's own, without the help of the brain.

hahaha are you retarded? cancer cannot have a heartbeat, it is an error in the biological process where cells divide too quickly and absorb the nutrients of the other, neccesary parts of the body. it cannot have or be a heart, all it will ever be is a bunch of ill-functioning cells...your own, as a matter of fact- another reason why it is not killing a human, it is like clipping a toenail to kill cancer, as it is a part of you, with your DNA. a fetus does not have your DNA, it is a seperate human life.

[JANUX 99]

malikpossessed

DiGital Lucifer

Mistress DragonFlame

My Conscience

The most appropriate definition of a person:

Person:

Webster

a : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being;

You may have spent a few hours writing that, but I can disprove it right here.

It says 'Human being' not just human.

Human being = person.

Human =/= person.

Also, to go father, it is also against the law for any person A to take over the command of any other person B, even if the end result for person B is to kill person A for it to stop.

You may not realize it.. But you just proved his point even more.

For one.. A fetus looks like a human; yeah yeah, not at all stages, but even if it doesn't have the apperance, it has the nessessary means to being a real human. Infact, I see no logical explanation of calling it anything other than human.
Thus it's a person.
Secondly, human and human being make absolutely no difference. It is the same thing. Unless you want to say the difference of being dead over alive. Which you might have a chance.

If the fetus is a person, I can and will refer to McFall v. Shimp.

Which is what? Because I see absolutely not rational way of calling a fetus non-human.

[Beatrix the catgirl]

DiGital Lucifer

Beatrix the catgirl

divineseraph

and cancer will develop a heartbeat?

How do you know the fetus will develop a heartbeat? It could be miscarried before then.

True, but how often does cancer develop the same organs as a fetus?

When did I ever say it would? What's to say a fetus will develop organs? There are birth defects which can cause organs to not develop.

[Moniquill]

DiGital Lucifer

You say it like I'm the one deciding these things.

As do you.

DiGital Lucifer

It's common sense to understand some things are not the best way for everyone.

Of course. But then, no action is ever in everyone's favor.

DiGital Lucifer

I think it's common feelings in abortion that a would-be mother realizes the nature of what she's doing. I doubt that it's an alternative that is regarded as.. The best choice possible. Possibly for them at that moment in time.. But certainly not the only alternative.

And why do you think that these are common feelings? Common to whom?

DiGital Lucifer

In addition.. My understanding of responsibility stems from something you can't debate with.

If I can't debate with it, then neither can you.
IPrimarily because you'd be a fool to say that some of the most joyful things in life should be treated with dissrespect. By dissrespect, I insinuate that it's a dissrespect for life. In the case of something extenuating, it's a tough choice between which is more valuable.

You'll have to make yourself more clear.
I do not mock your beloefs and values, why do you feel need to both assume mine and then call them foolish? I'll be plain: I do not believe existence to be more valid than nonexistence. I do not think that life is superior to nonlife. I do not think that anyone or anything ever has an innate right to existence.

DiGital Lucifer

I see you think I dictate what's right and wrong; An irrational thought considering I'm leaving myself open to rational change.

Quite the opposite. I'm not trying to dictate what is right and wrong. I'm trying to prove that no one has the jurisdiction to do so for another and that attempts at such are illogical.

DiGital Lucifer

Besides.. If selfishness isn't wrong, why don't you explain why. I gave an opinionated explanation why I personally see selfishness as inappropriate.

The burden of proof lies with one trying to make a positive statement. It is impossible to disprove somethign from a stance of nonexistence. If I claim that there's a purple dragon standing behind you, it's my job to prove it rather than your job to say 'No, there isn't'

DiGital Lucifer

I do believe a parent is made at conception; whether or not they are truly a parent is no gurantee since it's not that feasible to say you know they will or not as time goes on.

And that is a personal belief. So long as you recognize that, no foul. The moment you try to state is as fact, you run into problems.

DiGital Lucifer

In my opinion.. Parenting includes how you treat a child while they are still developing in the womb. Since after all.. You can ******** them up by doing stupid s**t like getting drunk every night or smoking cigarettes.

That doesn't count as parenting under my definition, but merely as taking responsibility for one's pregnancy. Parenthood, in my view, applies only after there is a neonate (or older child) to be a parent to. Before such time, pregnancy is a medical condition.

[Katsuya Ishtar]

DiGital Lucifer

malikpossessed

DiGital Lucifer

Mistress DragonFlame

My Conscience

The most appropriate definition of a person:

Person:

Webster

a : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being;

You may have spent a few hours writing that, but I can disprove it right here.

It says 'Human being' not just human.

Human being = person.

Human =/= person.

Also, to go father, it is also against the law for any person A to take over the command of any other person B, even if the end result for person B is to kill person A for it to stop.

You may not realize it.. But you just proved his point even more.

For one.. A fetus looks like a human; yeah yeah, not at all stages, but even if it doesn't have the apperance, it has the nessessary means to being a real human. Infact, I see no logical explanation of calling it anything other than human.
Thus it's a person.
Secondly, human and human being make absolutely no difference. It is the same thing. Unless you want to say the difference of being dead over alive. Which you might have a chance.

If the fetus is a person, I can and will refer to McFall v. Shimp.

Which is what? Because I see absolutely not rational way of calling a fetus non-human.

If someone needs something of mine to live, I don't have to give it to them, even if it means their dying.

[divineseraph]

[I am teh Haruka]

divineseraph

[I am teh Haruka]

divineseraph

yes, but you chose sex. if you choose to put a cancer-stick up your v****a, you deserve cancer.

By saying that, you either are pro-punishment or want children to be punishments.

Maybe both.

no. i am pro life- i will not allow anyone to destroy a human life merely for convenience.

And yet you want women to remain pregnant against their will, punishing them because of something you want.

EDIT: I chose sex. I didn't choose pregnancy. If I get pregnant because the condom broke or the pill didn't work, I'm getting an abortion.

punishing them? no, forcing them to allow life to exist.... is that so bad, really? it's the same thing as telling people not to murder- i am trying to save and allow the existance of lives- it is worth a little bit of inconvenience.

[Beatrix the catgirl]

DiGital Lucifer

malikpossessed

DiGital Lucifer

Mistress DragonFlame

My Conscience

The most appropriate definition of a person:

Person:

Webster

a : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being;

You may have spent a few hours writing that, but I can disprove it right here.

It says 'Human being' not just human.

Human being = person.

Human =/= person.

Also, to go father, it is also against the law for any person A to take over the command of any other person B, even if the end result for person B is to kill person A for it to stop.

You may not realize it.. But you just proved his point even more.

For one.. A fetus looks like a human; yeah yeah, not at all stages, but even if it doesn't have the apperance, it has the nessessary means to being a real human. Infact, I see no logical explanation of calling it anything other than human.
Thus it's a person.
Secondly, human and human being make absolutely no difference. It is the same thing. Unless you want to say the difference of being dead over alive. Which you might have a chance.

If the fetus is a person, I can and will refer to McFall v. Shimp.

Which is what? Because I see absolutely not rational way of calling a fetus non-human. We're not denying whether or not that it's a human, just its personhood.

[Katsuya Ishtar]

divineseraph

malikpossessed

divineseraph

malikpossessed

divineseraph

malikpossessed

If I get pregnant and I didn't want it, I didn't choose it. If the contraceptive fails, not my fault.

yes, but you chose sex. if you choose to put a cancer-stick up your v****a, you deserve cancer.

But people who smoke aren't denied medical treatment when they develop lung cancer.

and cancer will develop a heartbeat?

It can, it has the potential to through cloning. An eratic heartbeat=/=functioning cerebal cortex, because the heart is the only thing in your body that can beat on it's own, without the help of the brain.

hahaha are you retarded? cancer cannot have a heartbeat, it is an error in the biological process where cells divide too quickly and absorb the nutrients of the other, neccesary parts of the body. it cannot have or be a heart, all it will ever be is a bunch of ill-functioning cells...your own, as a matter of fact- another reason why it is not killing a human, it is like clipping a toenail to kill cancer, as it is a part of you, with your DNA. a fetus does not have your DNA, it is a seperate human life.

It doesn't have my DNA? Have you taken a biology class?

[Beatrix the catgirl]

divineseraph

[I am teh Haruka]

divineseraph

[I am teh Haruka]

divineseraph

yes, but you chose sex. if you choose to put a cancer-stick up your v****a, you deserve cancer.

By saying that, you either are pro-punishment or want children to be punishments.

Maybe both.

no. i am pro life- i will not allow anyone to destroy a human life merely for convenience.

And yet you want women to remain pregnant against their will, punishing them because of something you want.

EDIT: I chose sex. I didn't choose pregnancy. If I get pregnant because the condom broke or the pill didn't work, I'm getting an abortion.

punishing them? no, forcing them to allow life to exist.... is that so bad, really? it's the same thing as telling people not to murder- i am trying to save and allow the existance of lives- it is worth a little bit of inconvenience.

So says the male who will never have to endure pregnancy and know what can come of it.

[JANUX 99]

Alexandra Trannyth

DiGital Lucifer

Mistress DragonFlame

My Conscience

The most appropriate definition of a person:

Person:

Webster

a : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being;

You may have spent a few hours writing that, but I can disprove it right here.

It says 'Human being' not just human.

Human being = person.

Human =/= person.

Also, to go father, it is also against the law for any person A to take over the command of any other person B, even if the end result for person B is to kill person A for it to stop.

You may not realize it.. But you just proved his point even more.

For one.. A fetus looks like a human; yeah yeah, not at all stages, but even if it doesn't have the apperance, it has the nessessary means to being a real human. Infact, I see no logical explanation of calling it anything other than human.
Thus it's a person.
Secondly, human and human being make absolutely no difference. It is the same thing. Unless you want to say the difference of being dead over alive. Which you might have a chance.

Human = having human DNA. My heart? A human heart. My hand? A human hand. Both human. Neither are human beings. There is a difference.

Exactly. Which is why a fetus is human.
It's not like we can't understand this through the obvious apperance of children being similar to their parents who are also beings with human DNA.
But that's not important.. If someone questions if a fetus is a human, they need to make sure they are speaking about a fetus in a Homo sapien woman's body and not something else.

The question is if they are even a person. According to the definition, they are. Thus, they are protected under the 14th. Which I am assuming is the back-bone of the legislating of those laws against induced misscariages by someone; such as.. In a fight. Even if it's the father. After all, you can be prosecuted by this law even if asked for help and you're not a liscensed doctor.