Psychology students: If genetics play no role in behavior...

[AliKat1988]

Robot Macai

People have asked where I get my information about the psychological dogma of all behavior being societal rather than genetic, and I must admit that I was intending this as a jab against Meroko Love and Blind Guardian, and their supporters, but I guess I failed to make it obvious enough.

Thanks for the clarification, though I have to ask why you thought it necessary to make a thread for this. Weren't there threads you could disagree with them in with similar rhetoric?

[Robot Macai]

AliKat1988

Robot Macai

People have asked where I get my information about the psychological dogma of all behavior being societal rather than genetic, and I must admit that I was intending this as a jab against Meroko Love and Blind Guardian, and their supporters, but I guess I failed to make it obvious enough.

Thanks for the clarification, though I have to ask why you thought it necessary to make a thread for this. Weren't there threads you could disagree with them in with similar rhetoric?

I don't know, seemed like a good idea at the time. Can I blame the liquor and get away with it?

[AliKat1988]

Robot Macai

AliKat1988

Robot Macai

People have asked where I get my information about the psychological dogma of all behavior being societal rather than genetic, and I must admit that I was intending this as a jab against Meroko Love and Blind Guardian, and their supporters, but I guess I failed to make it obvious enough.

Thanks for the clarification, though I have to ask why you thought it necessary to make a thread for this. Weren't there threads you could disagree with them in with similar rhetoric?

I don't know, seemed like a good idea at the time. Can I blame the liquor and get away with it?

I suppose though if you do illegal drugs it makes an even better excuse. I know that when people say they made a thread because they were high, I generally accept that as a good enough excuse to write bizarre things.

[Robot Macai]

AliKat1988

Robot Macai

AliKat1988

Robot Macai

People have asked where I get my information about the psychological dogma of all behavior being societal rather than genetic, and I must admit that I was intending this as a jab against Meroko Love and Blind Guardian, and their supporters, but I guess I failed to make it obvious enough.

Thanks for the clarification, though I have to ask why you thought it necessary to make a thread for this. Weren't there threads you could disagree with them in with similar rhetoric?

I don't know, seemed like a good idea at the time. Can I blame the liquor and get away with it?

I suppose though if you do illegal drugs it makes an even better excuse. I know that when people say they made a thread because they were high, I generally accept that as a good enough excuse to write bizarre things.

I think I'm a genius when high. I think we all do.

[Omorose Panya]

Oblivion Blades

True that, I was more of addressing the nurture part. I've never seen a study on how nurture potentially affects homosexuality, and I'd like to see one, since the nature+nurture seems to be the most accepted idea currently, but I've only seen the nature part studied.

The "nature part" doesn't have much of a leg to stand on:

Omorose Panya

The problem with all these such studies is that they test adults, and you can't assume that a common factor amongst adults implies genetics or that they were "born that way."

Wikipedia

Neuroplasticity refers to the susceptibility to physiological changes of the nervous system, due to changes in behavior, environment, neural processes, or parts of the body other than the nervous system.[1] The brain changes throughout life.[2]

Neuroplasticity occurs on a variety of levels, ranging from cellular changes due to learning, to large-scale changes involved in cortical remapping in response to injury. The role of neuroplasticity is widely recognized in healthy development, learning, memory, and recovery from brain damage. During most of the 20th century, the general consensus among neuroscientists was that brain structure is relatively immutable after a critical period during early childhood. This belief has been challenged by findings revealing that many aspects of the brain remain plastic even into adulthood.[3]

Hubel and Wiesel had demonstrated that ocular dominance columns in the lowest neocortical visual area, V1, were largely immutable after the critical period in development.[4] Critical periods also were studied with respect to language; the resulting data suggested that sensory pathways were fixed after the critical period. However, studies determined that environmental changes could alter behavior and cognition by modifying connections between existing neurons and via neurogenesis in the hippocampus and other parts of the brain, including the cerebellum.[5]

Decades of research[6] have now shown that substantial changes occur in the lowest neocortical processing areas, and that these changes can profoundly alter the pattern of neuronal activation in response to experience. Neuroscientific research indicates that experience can actually change both the brain's physical structure (anatomy) and functional organization (physiology). Neuroscientists are currently engaged in a reconciliation of critical period studies demonstrating the immutability of the brain after development with the more recent research showing how the brain can, and does, change.[7]

Not to mention that there are many problems with trying to compare the brains of different social groups, given the already vast difference between any two brains. (It's an issue we keep running into with gender studies.)

Someone else got it right: Given how differently sexuality is expressed across time and place, along with how artificially and rigidly we [Westerners, Americans in particular] conceptualize it in the first place, it is probably more nurture than nature (same with any sexuality), though that does not make it a choice.

The bold is an important point. The common understanding of heterosexuality and homosexuality used to be different in America and Europe as recently as a century ago-- homosexuality's bad rep seems to have resulted in people self-identifying in extremes that likely only a very small fraction of the population would actually fall under. In addition, it is expressed in so many different ways that it is unlikely to be mostly genetic.

[Omorose Panya]

Robot Macai

People have asked where I get my information about the psychological dogma of all behavior being societal rather than genetic, and I must admit that I was intending this as a jab against Meroko Love and Blind Guardian, and their supporters, but I guess I failed to make it obvious enough.

I can't speak for Meroko_Love's position, but you have got BG's incorrect. He doesn't say that nature plays no part; what he says corresponds with current neuroscience-- that "nature" needs to be activated in a sense by "nurture," thus making "nurture" the bigger component.

I think I already went over this with you but I'll give you the short version (again?): Humans have the largest fully developed brains, brains so large that they cannot pass through the average female's pelvis. The evolutionary trade-off is to a smaller extent larger pelvises, but mainly humans being born more prematurely than, IIRC, any other mammal. In most instances it takes more than 25% of a human's lifespan for its brain to fully develop, and elsewhere and in the past, it took around and well over 50%. That leaves humans far more vulnerable to the "nurture" end of the spectrum than almost any other animal. (It is also probably the main the problem with comparing homosexuality in other animals with homosexuality in humans.) It should also be noted that we are far less vulnerable to the effects of "nurture" once our brains develop fully.

In short, it's not that nature plays no part, but that, at least for things like this, nurture plays the bigger role.

Oblivion Blades

^ Because you asked for an explanation.

[Major Lima Charlie]

Robot Macai

AliKat1988

Robot Macai

AliKat1988

Robot Macai

People have asked where I get my information about the psychological dogma of all behavior being societal rather than genetic, and I must admit that I was intending this as a jab against Meroko Love and Blind Guardian, and their supporters, but I guess I failed to make it obvious enough.

Thanks for the clarification, though I have to ask why you thought it necessary to make a thread for this. Weren't there threads you could disagree with them in with similar rhetoric?

I don't know, seemed like a good idea at the time. Can I blame the liquor and get away with it?

I suppose though if you do illegal drugs it makes an even better excuse. I know that when people say they made a thread because they were high, I generally accept that as a good enough excuse to write bizarre things.

I think I'm a genius when high. I think we all do.

Weed did d**k all for me. What a downer.

[Major Lima Charlie]

Robot Macai

People have asked where I get my information about the psychological dogma of all behavior being societal rather than genetic, and I must admit that I was intending this as a jab against Meroko Love and Blind Guardian, and their supporters, but I guess I failed to make it obvious enough.

We got that; it wasn't subtle. The problem was that no one argued what you said they argued.

I believe we call that a strawman.

[Omorose Panya]

Quinzel

A body of evidence points to genes being a factor. Female mice with the fucose mutarotase gene removed exhibit attraction to the urine of other female mice. Increased fertility in the female relatives of homosexual men led researchers to conclude that there is a gene on the X chromosome which promotes fertility when expressed in women and homosexuality in men.

Demonstrating that homosexuality possibly has a (strong?) genetic component in nonhuman animals =! demonstrating that homosexuality possibly has a (strong?) genetic component in human animals. See my post to Macai and Blades two or so posts up.

[Omorose Panya]

Belonging To Night

They say that mental health issues are somewhat genetic

Who is "they?" Most mental health issues have not been tied to genes, but rather to hormone imbalances and such as a neurological response to the environment. This thing again.

(Just a minor point, obviously.)

[Omorose Panya]

I'll just go ahead and post this:

Wikipedia"

Neuroplasticity refers to the susceptibility to physiological changes of the nervous system, due to changes in behavior, environment, neural processes, or parts of the body other than the nervous system.[1] The brain changes throughout life.[2]

Neuroplasticity occurs on a variety of levels, ranging from cellular changes due to learning, to large-scale changes involved in cortical remapping in response to injury. The role of neuroplasticity is widely recognized in healthy development, learning, memory, and recovery from brain damage. During most of the 20th century, the general consensus among neuroscientists was that brain structure is relatively immutable after a critical period during early childhood. This belief has been challenged by findings revealing that many aspects of the brain remain plastic even into adulthood.[3]

Hubel and Wiesel had demonstrated that ocular dominance columns in the lowest neocortical visual area, V1, were largely immutable after the critical period in development.[4] Critical periods also were studied with respect to language; the resulting data suggested that sensory pathways were fixed after the critical period. However, studies determined that environmental changes could alter behavior and cognition by modifying connections between existing neurons and via neurogenesis in the hippocampus and other parts of the brain, including the cerebellum.[5]

Decades of research[6] have now shown that substantial changes occur in the lowest neocortical processing areas, and that these changes can profoundly alter the pattern of neuronal activation in response to experience. Neuroscientific research indicates that experience can actually change both the brain's physical structure (anatomy) and functional organization (physiology). Neuroscientists are currently engaged in a reconciliation of critical period studies demonstrating the immutability of the brain after development with the more recent research showing how the brain can, and does, change.[7][x]

[Belonging To Night]

Omorose Panya

Belonging To Night

They say that mental health issues are somewhat genetic

Who is "they?" Most mental health issues have not been tied to genes, but rather to hormone imbalances and such as a neurological response to the environment. This thing again.

(Just a minor point, obviously.)

"They" is the vague, ominous, and all-inclusive group of people who hold most of the knowledge within the universe. They are only called upon and used as a citation when one is too lazy to actually pull up a link and supply evidence. xd

Saying that mental health issues are somewhat genetic might have been better said as a person's genes can make one hereditarily susceptible to mental health issues, with a major addition to the other elements that you mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_mental_disorders#Genes

http://www.medicinenet.com/mental_illness/article.htm

Although, my overall post was meant to convey how, like mental health issues aren't necessarily cut-and-dry, neither is homosexuality, since the brain, the body, and genetics can all factor into how a person develops within their lifetime. Something like a vague form of holism in a way.

I've read from various sources while researching homosexuality that genes, hormones, environmental conditions, etc, etc all seemingly contribute to a person being gay or not being gay.

[Omorose Panya]

Belonging To Night

Omorose Panya

Belonging To Night

They say that mental health issues are somewhat genetic

Who is "they?" Most mental health issues have not been tied to genes, but rather to hormone imbalances and such as a neurological response to the environment. This thing again.

(Just a minor point, obviously.)

"They" is the vague, ominous, and all-inclusive group of people who hold most of the knowledge within the universe. They are only called upon and used as a citation when one is too lazy to actually pull up a link and supply evidence. xd

Saying that mental health issues are somewhat genetic might have been better said as a person's genes can make one hereditarily susceptible to mental health issues, with a major addition to the other elements that you mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_mental_disorders#Genes

http://www.medicinenet.com/mental_illness/article.htm

Although, my overall post was meant to convey how, like mental health issues aren't necessarily cut-and-dry, neither is homosexuality, since the brain, the body, and genetics can all factor into how a person develops within their lifetime. Something like a vague form of holism in a way.

I've read from various sources while researching homosexuality that genes, hormones, environmental conditions, etc, etc all seemingly contribute to a person being gay or not being gay.

Citing "they" is a petpeeve of mine. xd

Yes, some are linked to genetics, but to my knowledge most are not. Certain traits might make people more susceptible is all.

Yes, they likely all do contribute. The question is how much.

[Belonging To Night]

Omorose Panya

Belonging To Night

Omorose Panya

Belonging To Night

They say that mental health issues are somewhat genetic

Who is "they?" Most mental health issues have not been tied to genes, but rather to hormone imbalances and such as a neurological response to the environment. This thing again.

(Just a minor point, obviously.)

"They" is the vague, ominous, and all-inclusive group of people who hold most of the knowledge within the universe. They are only called upon and used as a citation when one is too lazy to actually pull up a link and supply evidence. xd

Saying that mental health issues are somewhat genetic might have been better said as a person's genes can make one hereditarily susceptible to mental health issues, with a major addition to the other elements that you mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_mental_disorders#Genes

http://www.medicinenet.com/mental_illness/article.htm

Although, my overall post was meant to convey how, like mental health issues aren't necessarily cut-and-dry, neither is homosexuality, since the brain, the body, and genetics can all factor into how a person develops within their lifetime. Something like a vague form of holism in a way.

I've read from various sources while researching homosexuality that genes, hormones, environmental conditions, etc, etc all seemingly contribute to a person being gay or not being gay.

Citing "they" is a petpeeve of mine. xd

Yes, some are linked to genetics, but to my knowledge most are not. Certain traits might make people more susceptible is all.

Yes, they likely all do contribute. The question is how much.

I'm just lazy. stare

Is there an equally lazy way to say "they" without actually saying "they?" 'Cause I say that a lot when I'm pulling misc info from my mind. I looked up the word on dictionary.com and the best alternative was "people in general" which to me is pretty funny to say.

"People in general are usually in agreement when it's mentioned that hormone imbalances and neurological responses are the primary reason why mental health issues develop."

[Omorose Panya]

Belonging To Night

I'm just lazy. stare

Is there an equally lazy way to say "they" without actually saying "they?" 'Cause I say that a lot when I'm pulling misc info from my mind. I looked up the word on dictionary.com and the best alternative was "people in general" which to me is pretty funny to say.

"People in general are usually in agreement when it's mentioned that hormone imbalances and neurological responses are the primary reason why mental health issues develop."

You may as well just make a statement of certainty since you aren't citing anyone in he case of "they," and you aren't citing anyone credible in the case of "people in general." Don't [Americans? Canadians?] for the most part still believe that you catch colds by sleeping with wet hair?

A good alternative is to phrase it as a question. That way you can convey uncertainty without having to cite anyone.

"Isn't it primarily a mixture of X, Y, and Z?"

xd