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Select poll option that suits you most closely:

I am with Ben Stein who is a genius. 0.12738853503185 12.7% [ 40 ]
I am with Dawkins who is brilliant! 0.28343949044586 28.3% [ 89 ]
Darwinism is a foggy working hypothesis. 0.063694267515924 6.4% [ 20 ]
There is no academic freedom anymore. 0.14649681528662 14.6% [ 46 ]
I evolved from a cluster of cells that emerged from a pokey-ball. 0.37898089171975 37.9% [ 119 ]
Total Votes:[ 314 ]
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White Wolf of Nebu
Lady_Imrahil
I Director
I saw it an hour ago or so, mainly because my dad wanted me to see it.

And I... just can't seem to care about our origins at this point. Some would call me extremely dense for asking this, most likely, but I never understood why our origins were so critical.

Maybe someone would like to explain it to me. Because I've yet to find any significance with regards to life today.


The movie wasn't about our origins -- it is about having the academic freedom to search scientifically any theory you want to explore. Remember the people he interviewed at the beginning who were fired? Or the comparison to the Berlin Wall?

If I remeber correctly, that was already addressed as bullshit. They wern't fired because of their beliefs, they were fired because they wern't being competent.
This was addressed by Voija and also addressed on the film. In each case where the person had been fired, Ben Stein interviewed the person in charge. Each time that person stated that they had not fired the individual for their ID interest, just as you and Voija stated, however Ben Stein then produced documentation in writing of the reason for their termination being directly related to their involvement in in ID. It was really very persuasive.
A Confused Iguana
When preparing something like this I always wonder exactly where to start in this argument. Do we start with an apologia of the scientific method? Perhaps I should list the errors in thinking of the unscientific hypotheses. I could begin with how science and religion should not be incompatible with one another. Yet, I think I will start at the very beginning with logic.

A very amusing aspect of lurking and posting in the ED is the number of times that I see the statement "prove this", demanding that it must be done or the idea be discarded as useless. If we have a situation described by deductive logic then this is the way to go about matters: we construct the premises of our argument, we then apply whichever logical arguments and we come up with our conclusion.

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Thus, Socrates is mortal.

Perfect.

Alas, as is always the case in life, it is not as simple when we start to talk about the world around us. The problem is that we no longer are in the realm of deductive logic but inductive. We are not able to introduce principles that exist universally, we have to infer things on the basis of what has happened before. For example, I have seen many swans in my life and they have all been white.

All the swans I have seen are white.
Thus, all swans are white.

Yay. We have a solution. Only not all swans are white, there is a species of black swans in Australia. That is the problem with inductive logic, we have to be very careful about going from limited observations to a universal rule.

This is not the only problem on the horizon, we should consider the question about whether we are justified to believe that our inferences are correct. Why should we trust induction? I have already shown how induction can lead to wrong results, what if it entailed a more dangerous and life-threatening situation? How can we justify the use of inductive logic? We are worried about it failing us and leading to the wrong conclusion. Perhaps we should argue that inductive reasoning about the world is justified because it works and leads to beneficial outcomes in general. This appears to be okay but there is an insidious problem lurking in the shadows. We have stated that induction should be used for future reasoning because it has worked in the past: we trying to infer a universal statement from a limited observation. In a nutshell, we have to assume induction reasoning is correct to justify the use of inductive reasoning! At this point the "circular reasoning" and "begging the question" alarms and sirens are wailing. Quite a problem we have. Of course, I cannot claim credit for this cute little insight, I have to give thanks to David Hume, the first to highlight the so-called "Problem of Induction". The shockingly scary thing about the Problem of Induction is that it means we have no rational basis for any of our action because we are forever making inferences about how events are going to unfold!

Now, David Hume was an 18th century Scottish philosopher but as he was born after the 1709 Act of Union we should really consider him to be a British philosopher, something that causes much distress to modern Scots who appear to be referred to as "British" in the British media when they succeed but are most definitely "Scottish" when they fail. I wonder if the same would have been said of Sir Karl Popper, the famous British philosopher who was really Austrian by birth, had he not been as successful as he was.

Sir Karl, like David Hume, also has a tale to tell about inductive logic. Sir Karl recognised the Problem of Induction and how much it destroys a rational basis to make predictions about how the universe operates. He proposed that rather than make some observations and attempt to infer a universal rule, for that was how scientists were operating, we should revert to using deductive logic as a way of checking our ideas.

It works like this. If we have a hypothesis about the universe, H, then we state that if this hypothesis is correct it will entail some observation, O. Sir Karl realised that if we apply modus tollens then we can come to some conclusions.

If H then O.
Not O.
Therefore, not H.

There we have it, falsification. We should demand that our hypothesis lead to some observations we can make about the world. If we then test to see if the observed effect is not there, if it is not there then we can rule out the hypothesis.

With this one vastly important cornerstone of the modern scientific method was put down: the ability to test and show a hypothesis to be false. We cannot prove that the hypothesis is true, that should be apparent because to infer that would making a universal claim from a limited set of observations -- the problems with inductive logic strike -- but we can rule out the chaff and remain with the wheat of ideas. We cannot ever prove that the hypothesis is correct, all we can ever do is continually check to see if the observed effects are what we expect. If they are not then we have a problem and we must reject the original hypothesis.

If we cannot find a way to show an idea to be false then we have a problem: how can we evaluate whether it is a good idea or not? Certain ideas simply cannot be checked, a very popular one is string "theory". The string hypothesis suggests that all matter and forces can be represented as a more fundamental layer of matter know as strings. These strings can vibrate at different rates and give rise to all of physics as we understand it. Or that is the idea. A huge gaping, bleeding, mortal wound in the case for strings are that we simply cannot test them, we cannot formulate a scenario where we would be able to check the universe as say: "yes, this is compatible with strings because if we did not see this then it must surely be false." At this time, strings are not scientific and no one would countenance teaching the hypotheses in a science class to children: it simply does not have the evidence to support it. Lots of pretty mathematics with people saying "it makes so much sense" is find and dandy but it is not science. Perhaps in the future when we have more powerful particle accelerators we will be able to reach the energies where strings would begin to have a noticeable effect on the world. As it stands strings are an exercise in mathematical research. New avenues in mathematics are being discovered and people are sort of happy. It is still not science. Proto-science if we are to be generous, it could be scientific at a later date with more powerful testing machines.

What about intelligent design? Can it be tested? That is the important question. We need to be able to construct a way where, should intelligent design be correct, something must be observed. For if it is not then intelligent design simply does not describe the universe. People may point to instances of irreducible complexity but that is a devious argument. Irreducibly complexity argues that, while undesigned evolutionary theory can propose how many systems develop, there remain some systems that simply could not have developed without the aid of design. This is really an argument from ignorance, it presupposes that undesigned evolutionary theory cannot be responsible for this process because we currently cannot explain it: we may be able to do so in the future. Simply because undesigned evolutionary theory is not able to explain it that does not imply design was responsible. We could find an undesigned method in the future and the supposedly irreducibly complex system would no longer be so. Thus, irreducible complexity is not a test of intelligent design. Nay, even if we found no instances of irreducible complexity then it would not imply that design was not responsible.

What is the test? That is what we are waiting for. If there was a way to test it and we simply had not been able to check then intelligent design would be worthy of scientific study but not the classroom. Alas, unless a means of testing is proposed then intelligent design fails a crucial aspect of modern science itself! How could it ask for scientific funding when it is not able to say how it is scientific? This is a question I would like answered. The thesis is that intelligent design supporters are being shut up or fired for their views. Along with this being a distortion of events -- people should not be fired merely for considered intelligent design and that does not appear to be the case -- what basis is there for intelligent design to be given funding opportunities? It is not science! It does not qualify for limited resources designated for scientific study. I would not ask for money for scientific research from arts funding bodies.

Though, perhaps I am being harsh. No doubt there are some muttering about how I am a dirty materialist and that I am biased as result. My first response would be to correct my critic and point out that I am a methodological naturalist: I assume naturalism purely for practical reasons, I am not saying that naturalism is ontologically true.

Methodological naturalist, mind you, not naturist; that would lead to some very awkward lab sessions. Why do we assume naturalism in science? The answer is quite simple, the supernatural cannot be subjected to testing. Above nature, how could we ever test it? Testing is the bread and butter of science so we only consider solutions that we can test.

You see, in order for intelligent design to be admitted as scientific we would have to rewrite what it means for something to be scientific, we would have to remove the restriction of methodological naturalism. "Good!" some may proclaim, "because the truth of the matter may be that the supernatural explanations are the correct ones and keeping science restricted to the natural is myopic." I have some sympathy for this argument but it does not convince. Science is not about truth, science is about finding which models best describe the universe as we observe it and allow us to successfully predict the future with relative accuracy. We assume naturalism because we must be able to test, we must be able to test because we have to be able to side-step the fundamental problems with human inductive thinking. The price for this is truth. Science provides naturalistic models of the universe and only guarantees that they are the best models we have at this moment in time. It does not guarantee that the actors in the model ontologically corresponded to objects an mind-independent universe: the "true" state of things. Scientific realists may claim that science corresponds to a true state of affairs but that is a philosophical position and not a scientific one.

Why do this? Mainly because the truth may not be useful. Science has allowed amazing technological developments that have allowed humanity to improve itself. If it really did all amount to a simple, we were designed, what benefit would this insight bring? If you are unable to say something new about the way the universe operates then how it can it be used to our benefit? Nay, constraining scientists to the natural forces science to only accept models that provide a better description of the way the universe appears to function. With more successful ways to predict what happens we can develop more successful ways to manipulate the universe for our benefit.

As science does not purport to give a true description of the universe and merely a useful one, there is no basis for intelligent design to redefine it just in the event that intelligent design is correct. Intelligent may well be correct but until it becomes testable it just is not science. Not science. Things that are not science do not get scientific funding.

If you get this far then I congratulate you. I dearly hope that I did not ramble too more or become too pompous in tone. I also hope I have convinced some of the reasons why intelligent design should not be considered scientific, why it should not expect scientific funding as it is not scientific, and why redefining the meaning of science to allow it is foolhardy.

One final point. Much has been made of academic freedom. I shall leave with the words of someone more intelligent than I am about it.

"I wish to reaffirm the great value of academic freedom. In virtue of this freedom you are called to search for the truth wherever careful analysis of evidence leads you. Yet it is also the case that any appeal to the principle of academic freedom in order to justify positions that contradict the faith and the teaching of the Church would obstruct or even betray the university's identity and mission"

Academics are free to research but they must always respect the fundamental philosophy underpinning their field. Science is no different.

This needs to be linkable as a source for future debates, it would make things infinately easier.
Methcalarjalope
White Wolf of Nebu
Lady_Imrahil
I Director
I saw it an hour ago or so, mainly because my dad wanted me to see it.

And I... just can't seem to care about our origins at this point. Some would call me extremely dense for asking this, most likely, but I never understood why our origins were so critical.

Maybe someone would like to explain it to me. Because I've yet to find any significance with regards to life today.


The movie wasn't about our origins -- it is about having the academic freedom to search scientifically any theory you want to explore. Remember the people he interviewed at the beginning who were fired? Or the comparison to the Berlin Wall?

If I remeber correctly, that was already addressed as bullshit. They wern't fired because of their beliefs, they were fired because they wern't being competent.
This was addressed by Voija and also addressed on the film. In each case where the person had been fired, Ben Stein interviewed the person in charge. Each time that person stated that they had not fired the individual for their ID interest, just as you and Voija stated, however Ben Stein then produced documentation in writing of the reason for their termination being directly related to their involvement in in ID. It was really very persuasive.

If Ben Provided real, truthful documentation, then it needs to be investigated. Like I said before however, claims that they lied for their interveiw don't bode well for their integrity or credibility.
Methcalarjalope
White Wolf of Nebu
Lady_Imrahil
I Director
I saw it an hour ago or so, mainly because my dad wanted me to see it.

And I... just can't seem to care about our origins at this point. Some would call me extremely dense for asking this, most likely, but I never understood why our origins were so critical.

Maybe someone would like to explain it to me. Because I've yet to find any significance with regards to life today.


The movie wasn't about our origins -- it is about having the academic freedom to search scientifically any theory you want to explore. Remember the people he interviewed at the beginning who were fired? Or the comparison to the Berlin Wall?

If I remeber correctly, that was already addressed as bullshit. They wern't fired because of their beliefs, they were fired because they wern't being competent.
This was addressed by Voija and also addressed on the film. In each case where the person had been fired, Ben Stein interviewed the person in charge. Each time that person stated that they had not fired the individual for their ID interest, just as you and Voija stated, however Ben Stein then produced documentation in writing of the reason for their termination being directly related to their involvement in in ID. It was really very persuasive.

As coincidence would ahve it, Ben Stein ALSO hired a room full of extras so he wouldn't look like a douche at pepperdine. Remember that scene? Two or three were students.


And dig a little deeper into the firings, and keep in mind Ben Stein lied to get all those interviews. Fun quotes (courtesy of an article from Skeptic magazine. The guy who wrote it was interviewed for the movie, FYI)

Skeptic
Stein, however, is uninterested in paleontology, or any other science for that matter. His focus is on what happened to Sternberg, who is portrayed in the film as a martyr to the cause of free speech. “As a result of publishing the Meyer article,” Stein intones in his inimitably droll voice, “Dr. Sternberg found himself the object of a massive campaign that smeared his reputation and came close to destroying his career.” According to Sternberg, “after the publication of the Meyer article the climate changed from being chilly to being outright hostile. Shunned, yes, and discredited.” As a result, Sternberg filed a claim against the Smithsonian for being “targeted for retaliation and harassment” for his religious beliefs. “I was viewed as an intellectual terrorist,” he tells Stein. In August 2005 his claim was rejected. According to Jonathan Coddington, his supervisor at the Smithsonian Institution, Sternberg was not discriminated against, was never dismissed and in fact was not even a paid employee, but just an unpaid research associate who had completed his three-year term



Skeptic
The rest of the martyrdom stories in Expelled have similar less menacing explanations, detailed at www.expelledexposed.com, where physical anthropologist Eugenie Scott and her tireless crew at the National Center for Science Education have tracked down the specifics of each case. Astronomer Guillermo Gonzales, for example, did not get tenure at Iowa State University and is portrayed in the film as sacrificed on the alter of tenure denial because of his authorship of a pro-Intelligent Design book entitled Privileged Planet (Regnery Publishing, 2004). As Scott told me, “Tenure is based on the evaluation of academic performance at one’s current institution for the previous seven years.” Although Gonzales was apparently a productive scientist before he moved to Iowa State, Scott says that “while there, his publication record tanked, he brought in only a couple of grants, one of which was from the Templeton Foundation to write the Privileged Planet, didn’t have very many graduate students and those he had never completed their degrees. Lots of people don’t get tenure, for the same legitimate reasons that Gonzales didn’t get tenure.”

Tenure in any department is serious business because it means, essentially, employment for life. Tenure decisions for astronomers are based on the number and quality of scientific papers published, the prestige of the journal in which they are published, the number of grants funded (universities are ranked, in part, by the grant-productivity of their faculties), the number of graduate students who completed their program, the amount of telescope time allocated and the trends in each of these categories, indicating whether or not the candidate shows potential for continued productivity. In point of fact, according to Gregory Geoffroy, president of Iowa State University, “Over the past ten years, four of the 12 candidates who came up for review in the physics and astronomy department were not granted tenure.” Gonzales was one of them, and for good reasons, despite Stein’s claim of his “stellar academic record.”

For her part, Scott is presented in the film as the cultural filter for determining what is and is not science, begging the rhetorical question: just who does she think she is anyway? Her response to me was as poignant as it was instructive: “Who is Ben Stein to say what is science and not science? None of us speak for science. Scientists vary all over the map in their religious and philosophical views, for example, Francis Collins [the evangelical Christian and Human Genome Project director], so no one can speak for science.”
EsgarBlackpoxs
White Wolf of Nebu
Lady_Imrahil
I Director
I saw it an hour ago or so, mainly because my dad wanted me to see it.

And I... just can't seem to care about our origins at this point. Some would call me extremely dense for asking this, most likely, but I never understood why our origins were so critical.

Maybe someone would like to explain it to me. Because I've yet to find any significance with regards to life today.


The movie wasn't about our origins -- it is about having the academic freedom to search scientifically any theory you want to explore. Remember the people he interviewed at the beginning who were fired? Or the comparison to the Berlin Wall?

If I remeber correctly, that was already addressed as bullshit. They wern't fired because of their beliefs, they were fired because they wern't being competent.

You'd be correct. There was far more at play than the movie discussed.
That is also what the skeptic in the beginning of the film said regarding those persons dismissed from their jobs or denied funding for their interest in ID.

As we see here, many people are strongly against ID and connect it to creationism based on a court decision. Science is outside the domain of the courtroom. Remember as in the Scopes trial, Darrow LOST that case in favor of Bible creationism being taught. The court was wrong. I hate to bring up Galileo, as the pope had his reasons for repressing Copernicus' writings, nevertheless I feel confident that you all would agree that supression of science by a court decison is wrong. ID is not creationism no matter how it was defined in a court of law.

Creationism tries to link know science to fit into the "seven days" of creation as told in Bible mythos in order to say, "God first made the fish ..." etc. That's creationism. ID is looking for something else. I know a little bit about this from 20 years ago during a genetics course I took at University. There was a young professor who was teaching us genetics and at one point he told us about an up and coming new area of study that might replace darwin's theory, but that it was NOT (in his opinion) based on theology or creation but on the intelligence of life at work in the rapid changes of development. He said there may be some intelligence at work there that we cannot define. But it wasn't god. He was an agnostic who didn't accept any ideas about God.

Liberal Zealot

Azazen
For some reason I feel the need to show this post again, for effect. To restate, they did create primitive single celled organisms from chemicals in a lab.


Not quite...Miller, Urey, and their successors have managed to create pretty much all of the amino acids (and to my knowledge a few early proteins and polymers) necessary for life, and have shown that it can occur under a wide range of conditions without any real measurable effect on what is produced, but they did not at any point create life. Saying they did only gives creationists ammo as they tend to feel that they can then throw out all of what Miller/Urey (et al.) did prove because the last bit was a 'fraud'. Don't get me wrong, I certainly accept the possibility of abiogenesis occurring, and find it to be the (vastly) most probably scenario, but its best not to temp them.

Quote:
Did you guys know they have used telescopes to actually see the big bang and have been able to observe the effects of what the universe looked like while it happend, and have found that the universe is actually flat (Perhaps in the same way the world used to be flat but we shall see razz )


Er...no. They haven't. The furthest we can really see is about 13.2 billion light years, roughly 500 million years after the Big Bang. Most of our understanding of the event itself comes from computer models and particle accelerators. Now these have proven to be extremely accurate, but its pretty well impossible to 'see' the big bang (as it occurred, especially given that you need to allow several hundred thousand to a few million years for the energy density to decrease enough to see anything at all, as until then the universe is essentially opaque.).

Dapper Dabbler

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White Wolf of Nebu
This needs to be linkable as a source for future debates, it would make things infinately easier.


So, you've done it, right?
White Wolf of Nebu
Methcalarjalope
White Wolf of Nebu
Lady_Imrahil
I Director
I saw it an hour ago or so, mainly because my dad wanted me to see it.

And I... just can't seem to care about our origins at this point. Some would call me extremely dense for asking this, most likely, but I never understood why our origins were so critical.

Maybe someone would like to explain it to me. Because I've yet to find any significance with regards to life today.


The movie wasn't about our origins -- it is about having the academic freedom to search scientifically any theory you want to explore. Remember the people he interviewed at the beginning who were fired? Or the comparison to the Berlin Wall?

If I remeber correctly, that was already addressed as bullshit. They wern't fired because of their beliefs, they were fired because they wern't being competent.
This was addressed by Voija and also addressed on the film. In each case where the person had been fired, Ben Stein interviewed the person in charge. Each time that person stated that they had not fired the individual for their ID interest, just as you and Voija stated, however Ben Stein then produced documentation in writing of the reason for their termination being directly related to their involvement in in ID. It was really very persuasive.

If Ben Provided real, truthful documentation, then it needs to be investigated. Like I said before however, claims that they lied for their interveiw don't bode well for their integrity or credibility.
It is a frequently used technique of interviewers. Did you ever see the film, Thank you for Smoking? There was a beautiful woman who seduced her stories from guys who forgot or didn't believe they were still on the record when they were in coitus with her.

Ben Stein ******** with them for sure, however this is often how interviewers and journalists get their best quotes on the record. Dawkins was not a laughing stock. He was very charming and engaging. It was whimsical more than ridiculous. He thought he was speaking to someone sympatico and was therefore very open with perfect candor. It was a charming interview.

Liberal Zealot

Methcalarjalope
his was addressed by Voija and also addressed on the film. In each case where the person had been fired, Ben Stein interviewed the person in charge. Each time that person stated that they had not fired the individual for their ID interest, just as you and Voija stated, however Ben Stein then produced documentation in writing of the reason for their termination being directly related to their involvement in in ID. It was really very persuasive.


Not when you dig deeper it isn't

All it shows (again) is just how far IDiots are willing to lie in order to make their absurd persecution complex palatable to a captive audience.
Quote:
As coincidence would ahve it, Ben Stein ALSO hired a room full of extras so he wouldn't look like a douche at pepperdine. Remember that scene? Two or three were students.
Pepperdine also has goddess conferences. I've attended these as an archaeological student. Pepperdine is a Christian college, I think Methodist? Amirite? I don't think that there were so few students as only two or three. But staging is important. I would just be surprised that more students would not be interested in hearing Ben Stein as a guest speaker at their school. There must be another explanation than that "no one" wanted to attend it. Can you source this to us and also explain if the school was off season or if there could be any other possible explanation that that everyone at a Christian college was disinterested in Ben Stein and ID?

Micherru's Significant Otter

Dulcet Wench

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The problem with intelligent design is that it is pseudoscience.
It cannot be falsified or tested, at all.
And therefore, cannot be taught as a science.
ID is just a way for creationists' to get their ideas approved for brainwashing high and middle schoolers.
It's like...well, we don't know how this dam works, so we'll stick gum in it and call it complete now.
=D
Only, instead of gum, you're sticking abstract ideas in.

~*~女の心秋の空~*~

Liberal Zealot

Methcalarjalope
It is a frequently used technique of interviewers.


To lie about the purpose of the film, the interviewer's angle, and the way the interviewee will be presented and edited? In Moore-ish films, sure, in real documentaries one would hope that the integrity well didn't run quite so dry.
Jaaten Syric
Methcalarjalope
his was addressed by Voija and also addressed on the film. In each case where the person had been fired, Ben Stein interviewed the person in charge. Each time that person stated that they had not fired the individual for their ID interest, just as you and Voija stated, however Ben Stein then produced documentation in writing of the reason for their termination being directly related to their involvement in in ID. It was really very persuasive.


Not when you dig deeper it http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth/egnor]isn't

All it shows (again) is just how far IDiots are willing to lie in order to make their absurd persecution complex palatable to a captive audience.
It is very difficult for you to persuade me to trust these dot com sources when you present the individuals I saw in the film as "idiots." They were far from it. Ben Stein also addressed the issue of ID scientists as being stupid. Far, far from it. This was covered to my satisfaction in the film. It seems that Ben Stein was one jump ahead of all his critics. It is almost like he made the film AFTER he read the critique rather than the other way around. eek
Methcalarjalope
Quote:
As coincidence would ahve it, Ben Stein ALSO hired a room full of extras so he wouldn't look like a douche at pepperdine. Remember that scene? Two or three were students.
Pepperdine also has goddess conferences. I've attended these as an archaeological student. Pepperdine is a Christian college, I think Methodist? Amirite? I don't think that there were so few students as only two or three. But staging is important. I would just be surprised that more students would not be interested in hearing Ben Stein as a guest speaker at their school. There must be another explanation than that "no one" wanted to attend it. Can you source this to us and also explain if the school was off season or if there could be any other possible explanation that that everyone at a Christian college was disinterested in Ben Stein and ID?

As the people defending Ben Stein by saying "he has documentation!", so does Pepperdine. Attending Ben Stein's little event was entirely optional and voluntary. You had to sign in. There were only two or three signatures of actual Pepperdine students there. Note also that his lecture was not univeristy supported. The company paid for their time there, same as everyone else.
Jaaten Syric
Azazen
For some reason I feel the need to show this post again, for effect. To restate, they did create primitive single celled organisms from chemicals in a lab.


Not quite...Miller, Urey, and their successors have managed to create pretty much all of the amino acids (and to my knowledge a few early proteins and polymers) necessary for life, and have shown that it can occur under a wide range of conditions without any real measurable effect on what is produced, but they did not at any point create life. Saying they did only gives creationists ammo as they tend to feel that they can then throw out all of what Miller/Urey (et al.) did prove because the last bit was a 'fraud'. Don't get me wrong, I certainly accept the possibility of abiogenesis occurring, and find it to be the (vastly) most probably scenario, but its best not to temp them.

Quote:
Did you guys know they have used telescopes to actually see the big bang and have been able to observe the effects of what the universe looked like while it happend, and have found that the universe is actually flat (Perhaps in the same way the world used to be flat but we shall see razz )


Er...no. They haven't. The furthest we can really see is about 13.2 billion light years, roughly 500 million years after the Big Bang. Most of our understanding of the event itself comes from computer models and particle accelerators. Now these have proven to be extremely accurate, but its pretty well impossible to 'see' the big bang (as it occurred, especially given that you need to allow several hundred thousand to a few million years for the energy density to decrease enough to see anything at all, as until then the universe is essentially opaque.).
You're going to make things difficult for me aren't you, I'm just being lazy I'll try and find the info tomorrow on account of being extremely tired. It was something to the effect of certain chemicals being attracted to the strands of DNA, surrounding it in a protective shell making it more likely to survive and calling it an example of what the first cells would've looked like. I came across the info over 10 months ago so it's a little fuzzy I guess but I remember that part clearly... I believe.

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