The only crack in the Christian faith

[dragonlove_48]

There is... one point, one thing about Christianity that either proves, or disproves Christianity. Either Jesus rose from the dead, or he did not. If he rose from the dead then miracles and the existence of a great force that would resurrect Jesus (who did indeed claim to be the Son of God, the very Same God who the Jewish people worshiped.) If he did not, then there is no hope of life after death, no proof that sins are forgiven, and Christianity becomes a Moot point.

Let me give some base assumptions I'm making:
1.Jesus Did Exist
2.Jesus Claimed to be God
3.I'm also asserting that the Resurrection of Jesus is fundamental to everything Christians believe. I'm aware it is disputed, but the arguments have never even made enough sense to me for me to refute them, if you wish to debate the point, please start another topic and I'll post the link here.
4. This part of the Bible was meant to be taken literally, not allegorically.

To make this clear, I'm Christian, and therefore, yes I'm biased, but I've never seen this point brought up in any of the discussions here and I think it's important.  

[ioioouiouiouio]

It cannot be a crack, as it is true. Only a theological focal point.  

[dragonlove_48]

Cometh The Inquisitor

It cannot be a crack, as it is true. Only a theological focal point.

Point, Sugestions for a better title?  

[ioioouiouiouio]

dragonlove_48

Point, Suggestions for a better title?

Nah. It grabs attention.  

[Battousai Akuma]

I am a follower of Christ and I would say that is the most fundemental things to belive in Christ's resurection(sp?) without that there would be no Christianity.  

[Xaerne Veirylle]

Yes, I would have to believe, as most of as I think, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and yes it is a very important point in Christianity. It is the focal point: that however sinful we maybe there is hope in God's love and mercy and that we, one day, might share Paradise with Him. If Jesus Christ did not rise, then the deaths of the saints and martyrs have no meaning. And why else would they die? It was either that there was this much lunatics in Jerusalem, a man believing Himself to be God and people believing Him and not only dying for Him but suffering for Him inspite that He had not really risen. The other point is that He did rise and that everthing He said is true. I think it more logical that unless Jerusalem was a home for such men with such thinking, that it is more possible that the second would be true and that it is not merely possible, but is true.  

[Cyberpunk Hero]

So, uh, what about the martyrs for all of the other religions? Your martyrs were sane but their martyrs were delusional?  

[Xaerne Veirylle]

Cyberpunk Hero

So, uh, what about the martyrs for all of the other religions? Your martyrs were sane but their martyrs were delusional?

That, I did not mean. It is simply that the apostles faced pain and torture for being Christian. If they were pretending, then they were insane or illogical for dying for a truth they did not really believe. I was not saying nor intending to say that any other martyrs were delusional. If they faced pain and torture stayed, it will only prove their firm belief in whatever they saw. And whatever they saw, I cannot prove wrong or right, but simply believe it to be wrong or right. I was not completely sure of what you meant so if I misunderstood, please point out what it is.  

[Cyberpunk Hero]

Xaerne Veirylle

That, I did not mean. It is simply that the apostles faced pain and torture for being Christian. If they were pretending, then they were insane or illogical for dying for a truth they did not really believe. I was not saying nor intending to say that any other martyrs were delusional. If they faced pain and torture stayed, it will only prove their firm belief in whatever they saw. And whatever they saw, I cannot prove wrong or right, but simply believe it to be wrong or right. I was not completely sure of what you meant so if I misunderstood, please point out what it is.

The problem is, of course, that if a whole bunch of martyrs die for a whole bunch of religions, it doesn't really help us figure out who's being crazy and who isn't.  

[Xaerne Veirylle]

Cyberpunk Hero

The problem is, of course, that if a whole bunch of martyrs die for a whole bunch of religions, it doesn't really help us figure out who's being crazy and who isn't.

No, but it helps to know which ones were right. I am by no means saying that they died for nothing. If they died through a truth they believed in and sought God with all their mind, body, and soul, I believe they could go to heaven. Even atheists who seek to do good for the sake of good and love can go to heaven. I'm not to judge. I'm not God. I do believe, though, in an absolute truth. That no matter what humans think, there is only one thing that is true.  

[Cyberpunk Hero]

Xaerne Veirylle

No, but it helps to know which ones were right.

No, it doesn't! That's the whole point! You can't BOTH be right!

Xaerne Veirylle

That no matter what humans think, there is only one thing that is true.

PRECISELY.

Look, if a Christian and a Bob-ist both die for their beliefs, how does that help us determine which one is right?  

[Battousai Akuma]

Xaerne Veirylle

Cyberpunk Hero

The problem is, of course, that if a whole bunch of martyrs die for a whole bunch of religions, it doesn't really help us figure out who's being crazy and who isn't.

Even atheists who seek to do good for the sake of good and love can go to heaven.

I don't think so. The only way to Heaven is through being born again and having real relationship with Christ. All the good deeds in the world wont get you into Heaven. Now if that Athiest turns to Christ and becomes Born again then yes he/she will enter into Heaven.  

[Xaerne Veirylle]

Cyberpunk Hero

Xaerne Veirylle

No, but it helps to know which ones were right.

No, it doesn't! That's the whole point! You can't BOTH be right!

Xaerne Veirylle

That no matter what humans think, there is only one thing that is true.

PRECISELY.

Look, if a Christian and a Bob-ist both die for their beliefs, how does that help us determine which one is right?

It doesn't, but that wasn't what I was trying to prove in the first place. I was agreeing upon the fact that the Jesus rising from the dead is a very important point in Christianity and that if it were not true, there would probably no Christianity. See, if Christ hasdn't risen, the apostles would not have believed. And if the apostles did not die for their religion, many would not have believed the truth of Christianity because here were men saying this one man can save you but does not believe it. After saying that point, I can also say that though the fact does not completely prove Christianity as truth, it supports it, and supports it to the point that those men were able to spread their beliefs to millions.  

[Xaerne Veirylle]

Hittokiri04

Xaerne Veirylle

Cyberpunk Hero

The problem is, of course, that if a whole bunch of martyrs die for a whole bunch of religions, it doesn't really help us figure out who's being crazy and who isn't.

Even atheists who seek to do good for the sake of good and love can go to heaven.

I don't think so. The only way to Heaven is through being born again and having real relationship with Christ. All the good deeds in the world wont get you into Heaven. Now if that Athiest turns to Christ and becomes Born again then yes he/she will enter into Heaven.

Ah, but then, he/she is no longer atheist. I really don't think there is absolutely only one way to heaven. Especially in so many situations. Of course, not all the good deeds in the world won't get you into heaven. God's grace to gets us into heaven. The ordinary way to get this is through baptism and other sacraments, yes, while in a relationship with Christ. But how about those who are innocent of these? Who haven't even heard of Christianity and Christ but still do good out of love, and a love not for him/herself but for others? God can work through extraordinary ways to bring his grace into those who love and do good for good's sake because they are blind to the truth.  

[Battousai Akuma]

There is a verse in Romans that says that he has revealed himself in nature. I cant remember the verse off hand. God will reveal himself to someone evan if they are not told of him if that person is truly seeking truth. There is nothing we can do at all to enter heaven even if we are good. It is only by God's merciful grace that we enter his kingdom.