"Should Wiccans/Pagans Have Chrurches?"

[Clair Fay]

Another atricle I read posed this question. I'll ellaborate...

As a nature-based religion, Wiccans and Pagans and any branch thereof, is on the outskirts of "acceptable" society in some parts of the world, some countries more/less than others, so an established church and place of worship would be great, yes? No, or at least much less, worry of negative energy being puhsed towards your magickal workings, a place where you can meet others of a similar or same path, a place where you wouldn't have to worry about harassment (as in some areas there are), a safe haven, a place to learn, someplace to find ordained people for handfastings and births and the like... Wonderful, yes?

But as a NATURE-BASED religion/practice, is it RIGHT to do that? Our place of worship and a good part of what we worship is the earth itself. So is it right, even ethical, to set ASIDE a place to worship, almost saying it's where you SHOULD practice and the like? Also, wouldn't having that, and so required by law, a heirchy for the established church... wouldn't that make us more like the overbearing (in some's minds) and power-hungry (again, in some's minds, not necessarilly all's) Christian churches some of us might have been raised around or with, one of the reasons some of us may have strayed away from Christianity? And by doing so, would we ourselves become more rigid on what is "right" or "wrong"? (Such as the argument about athames and wands--whether the athame is symbolic of wind or fire and the wand the same.)

What are your oppinions? And, again, ellaborate.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

I think that there are some hofs (I'm not sure what the correct spelling is in plural form) in N. Europe and I can't remember the country for sure. But I know there is at least one place of Asatru/Norse worship in the world 3nodding .

EDIT: Apparently there is a government-recognized hof here in the US located in Maryland!

I'm not sure I see having a worship structure for Pagans would keep negative energy from entering spell-working and the like; if anything, I could see it attracting MORE negativity. By building a church or whatnot, it is making the faith very visible. An easy target for bigots and those of little understanding. In some more extreme areas, I don't think vandalism and similar are conducive to worship.

I was under the impression that a group of Pagans casually meeting at one of their houses was pretty safe from harassment. Seeing as how it is private property, it'd be odd for someone to knock on the door and go "Excuse me, are you all Pagan? You are? XCEPT GAWD NAO!" as compared with a Pagan church where it would be easy for the more narrow-minded to congregate upon and protest, harass, etc... That too really wouldn't add much to the air of holiness and peace that a place of worship is supposed to espouse.

Aside from those things, I really don't see why it would be wrong to do it. The building I'm sure would be made of natural materials, so I don't see it as setting aside a space as much as it is taking natural elements and building something from them to help focus your practice. As for power...Paganism is so widely and crazily scattered, making a hierarchy would be like trying to herd cats xd . I'm sure it would be possible for people to open their own individual churches in their own areas and not have to report to a central body (aside from the fact there is no central body to report to). So in that sense I guess, you could feasibly have a church that viewed athames and wands in one way, and another church that viewed them in the other way.  

[Clair Fay]

(And see, this is why I bring these things up--different view-points and opinions, opens up your mind.)

I can see your point with vandalism and the like, but many pagans argue that an established place to meet other pagans is very welcome, especially if they're more in the broom closet than others or if they're just starting and would dully appreciate some guidance aside from books.

As to the hierarchy, as much as you have a point and it would be more difficult, considering all the variety, it would still be possible and a sort of "threat" (granted, most pagans might not think of it as such).  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Kuriyaki

I can see your point with vandalism and the like, but many pagans argue that an established place to meet other pagans is very welcome, especially if they're more in the broom closet than others or if they're just starting and would dully appreciate some guidance aside from books.

But it still doesn't make sense to me; if someone is in the broom closet (I'm assuming for secrecy reasons, not because they enjoy it in there..), going to a big, public, visible Pagan church would be counterproductive. I mean, if I were in the broom closet and still trying to learn without much detection, I definitely would not want to be seen going into a Pagan church.

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As to the heirchy, as much as you have a point and it would be more difficult, concidering all the variety, it would still be possible and a sort of "threat" (granted, most pagans might not think of it as such).

How do you think a hierarchy would get started and going though? I mean, I could maybe see a few groups in the future having central bodies, but when you get into things like eclecticism and Hellenismos, having a central body would negate some of the very distinct traits of that faith.  

[WitchyBoy]

i would love like a temple, it would be so much nicer then just doing it out of your bedroom but id still go outside to practice as well.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Kuriyaki

No, or at least much less, worry of negative energy being puhsed towards your magickal workings

I prefer to keep spellwork and religion separate, and I don't put much stock in "negative energies" ending up mixed in with the energy I raise for a magical working. But at any rate, if you cast a Circle for your spellwork, it's of no matter to you. A properly cast Circle shouldn't let ANY energy in or out unless you allow it to do so. That's much of the reason of why people use them.

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a place where you can meet others of a similar or same path, a place where you wouldn't have to worry about harassment (as in some areas there are), a safe haven, a place to learn, someplace to find ordained people for handfastings and births and the like... Wonderful, yes?

It's a nice idea... but most people like this you can find on Witchvox and faith-specific websites anyway. They're a nice idea, yes, for many reasons. Having a Stone Circle around to go and meet people would be great. I guess the problem with a church is that it will end up attracting a particular sort of person; there's no guarantee that the area near you will have people whose beliefs coincide with yours... as Vi knows from experience, having met some local Pagans herself wink

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But as a NATURE-BASED religion/practice, is it RIGHT to do that? Our place of worship and a good part of what we worship is the earth itself. So is it right, even ethical, to set ASIDE a place to worship, almost saying it's where you SHOULD practice and the like?

What, so the Greeks and Romans weren't Pagans now? They were unethical Pagans? confused
People have been making temples, shrines, altars and megaliths to honour deities and nature-spirits for millennia. I don't see a problem with that in any way. Having a specific place to worship aids your ritual practice, it doesn't hinder it.

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Also, wouldn't having that, and so required by law, a heirchy for the established church...

I was under the impression that we were discussing a place rather than a congregation or clergy or whatever.... "Church" can have more than one meaning.

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wouldn't that make us more like the overbearing (in some's minds) and power-hungry (again, in some's minds, not necessarilly all's) Christian churches some of us might have been raised around or with, one of the reasons some of us may have strayed away from Christianity?

My problem would be who would be "in charge".
I will make a prediction. I predict that Silver Ravenwolf will put herself forward. I predict that the church would then become an utter embarrassment to Paganism.

Anyone who had any sort of problem with whoever ended up in charge would avoid any of these churches like the plague and a giant real-life flame-war would erupt. And you know that the most pain in the arse, self-obsessed, total ******** cuntrags would be the ones to say "me! I want to run the church!!"
Possible ******** who would want to be in charge:
Robin Artisson (aka Son of Art, aka Religion-Hopping BS-artist)
$ilver Ravenwolf (aka "I value money more than fact")
Fiona Horne (aka LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! I'm totally a WITCH!)
Mark Ventimiglia (aka "I'm in charge of Seax!! Everyone obey ME!!" aka Homophobic Jerkass)

I for one would rather drive a stake through my hand than associate myself with these people.

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And by doing so, would we ourselves become more rigid on what is "right" or "wrong"? (Such as the argument about athames and wands--whether the athame is symbolic of wind or fire and the wand the same.)

I think there's more differences in theology and so on to be worrying about than attributes linked to tools. Many Pagan religions are HUGELY different from one another.

The idea would be this: to have a Pagan church - temple would be a better word with better connotations, I think - maintained by particular Pagans who put forward their time and money to create it. People donate, give time, money, incense etc. There would be no heirarchy, no "clergy" who worked as a part of the church, no specific services, and no religion specifically linked to the church. It would be an area you could use - rent out, maybe, or go to for peace and meditation, as well as devotion - rather than a place that was for a specific purpose.

The other side of this is to have temples dedicated to particular pantheons or deities. I know there are Hellenics who long for temples but I'm unsure if any exist yet in the US. The temples would be maintained by dedicants and priests of that deity - so the Dionysian Maenads would maintain temples to Dionysus and so on. So the temple would be for a specific group, but if you worship that pantheon or deity, you could visit, donate if you could, pray and meditate there and so on. And specific to that particular worship group as well as to that religion, so no one temple would be answerable to any other. Because this version belongs to a specific group, there would be a particular sort of hierarchy relevant to that group, and there would be particular ways of doing things and so on.

Along with temples you have stone circles and shrines and groves and so on.... the best idea is to have a gated park or something, maintained by gardeners and so on, where you can find your own particular clearing and do what you like at whatever time you wish. So you'd have the odd monolith, maybe a small stone circle or two, some groves surrounded by trees, a couple of tiny temple-shrine things... Obviously bigger areas could be booked out and so on for holidays and a big field in the middle, maybe, for big group celebrations, that would be nice. That's your ideal, of course. A girl can dream wink  

[LadyLivorMortis]

If I just lived near a forest I would be content with that.  

[MidnightLetter]

There are so many different paths and traditions that make up paganism, that it would be really difficult to have a sort of "general purpose" church that would fit everyone. If individual traditions wanted to form a group that is up to them, but the main problem that I can see is that most rituals (at least from a Wicca/Neo-Wicca point of view) just weren't designed to be done with large groups of people. Obviously group rituals are done all the time, but I think there is a point were trying to direct and focus that much energy is counter productive.

There are some groups that have formed "churches", and many UU churches have pagan groups within them (CUUPS). But I have to agree that until paganism becomes more acceptable, the odds of many people feeling comfortable openly showing their affiliation by going to a pagan church, just aren't that good.  

[WitchyBoy]

LadyLivorMortis

If I just lived near a forest I would be content with that.

ditto  

[DenvoPryde]

When I was in Rhode Island the Wiccans and Pagans in the area tried to create a community center. A place to worship, public garden, classes, and a place to just hang out. I think that is probaly the best we can probably do. Unfortunetly we did not have enough people who were serious enough and many who did not what to pay a monthly fee. The fee would be necessary for rent.  

[Aryain Flames]

i THINK HAVING A MEETING PLACE (INDOORS OR OUT) would be cool for a single coven or 2 to share, but i agree with Ultraviolett1127 about the fact that a large meeting place would attract the attention of negetive peoples.  

[WitchyBoy]

Aryain Flames

i THINK HAVING A MEETING PLACE (INDOORS OR OUT) would be cool for a single coven or 2 to share, but i agree with Ultraviolett1127 about the fact that a large meeting place would attract the attention of negetive peoples.

true true but the same can be said for nearly any structure  

[Clair Fay]

I probably should have said this at the begining, but these arguments that I presentes are by NO means MY OWN. As far as I'm concerned, buying a plot of land with a building on it for people to freely use would be just fine. I was simply re-stating the arguments that those in the article presented.  

[WitchyBoy]

this seems to be a bit of a loaded question doesnt it.  

[Clair Fay]

Hence why I brought it up. Loaded questions have loaded answers and loaded opinions, and seeing as how paganism/wicca/etc. tends to attract a lot of strong personalities (or so I've seen in my experience), it just makes it that much more interesting.