Gods not foundational?

[MidnightLetter]

I came across this post on another forum earlier that I wanted to share with you all, and get your thoughts on it.

Quote:

gods aren't actually foundational to most religion, and relationships with them are not foundational either

As someone who comes from a background of (and has interest in) religions in which God(s) are a fairly central part, I find this statement to be a bit strange (to say the least). Also, the idea of not having a relationship (of some sort) with one's Gods is a bit disconcerting. Curious to know what you all think...  

[Esiris]

I figure some people didn't have the kind of personal relationship with their gods back in the day, but it's pretty common now.

I find it odd too.  

[kage no neko]

Well.. not all religions require or contain a god, so I don't find it too odd, unless that religion contains and is mostly about that god.
I wouldn't call my practices a religion, but I've never been that centered around any particular deity. Though if I were, I might be slightly more inclined to find a religion dealing with them or something..  

[Cheetahs Wolf]

hedge witches dont normally have a religious side of witchcraft.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Cheetahs Wolf

hedge witches dont normally have a religious side of witchcraft.

Relevance.....?

Not sure about that one, anyway. Most Hedgewitches I've come across do... but there's nothing really standard from one to the other. So it's not considered a part of hedgecraft so much as a part of an individual's personal practice.  

[mechanical kitsy]

Blah. I recognize that there is a God and Goddess, probly only because Ive been brought up to believe in greater powers, but I don't have specific deities. Really I do what I want, how I want. My other friends told me I'm close to practicing chaotic witchcraft, but that's just what they think.  

[rmcdra]

MidnightLetter

I came across this post on another forum earlier that I wanted to share with you all, and get your thoughts on it.

Quote:

gods aren't actually foundational to most religion, and relationships with them are not foundational either

As someone who comes from a background of (and has interest in) religions in which God(s) are a fairly central part, I find this statement to be a bit strange (to say the least). Also, the idea of not having a relationship (of some sort) with one's Gods is a bit disconcerting. Curious to know what you all think...

Yeah it's upsetting but I'd have to agree. Most people don't want anything to do with Gods. They'd rather some object that isn't going to talk back to them than an actual relationship since it keeps them in control. We'd rather make our own Gods than to actually meet Gods cause once we meet Gods, we are no longer the one and only God of our world.

... enough with my rant.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

rmcdra

Yeah it's upsetting but I'd have to agree. Most people don't want anything to do with Gods. They'd rather some object that isn't going to talk back to them than an actual relationship since it keeps them in control. We'd rather make our own Gods than to actually meet Gods cause once we meet Gods, we are no longer the one and only God of our world.

... enough with my rant.

Deep, man.  

[Eliamaraleth]

Forgive me for jumping in here, but this is a topic of common discussion in my life, especially when finding new friends of different paths in Wicca.

The concept of a deity or deities is very, very personal. Like most other things, it is not necessarily understood in the same way from one person to the next. Many of my friends find a relationship to a deity aspect or three very important and make it a central part of their rituals. Gods and Goddesses and myths and legend factor greatly into their understanding and their practice.

I, however, do not find the need to have a set one or even a pantheon. It is not for a wish or a will to be in control of my own world, as in something like Panentheism. Rather, it is because my concept of magic and energy concerns the force binding all individuals and things. It is qi or an oversoul or whatever else you have cause to call it. It molds us even as we mold it, and our relationships cause aspects to form and affect our own beliefs.

This does not suggest that deities are not real, but that they are not quite so simple as general understanding might suggest. And, again, it is merely the way that I understand and interact with my own magic and the world.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

I'm not realllly sure how that's related to the op.

Just as an aside, though, in Wicca it's fairly straightforward. All Wicca is ditheistic.  

[Eliamaraleth]

My point was to use an example where gods are not necessarily foundational.

As for bitheism, that is one form of it, but it is not an absolute. Wicca does not solely dictate a source in the Gardnerian or even Alexandrian traditions, where we see the Lord and Lady or God and Goddess as aspects for worship. There are Panentheists who worship the universe, monotheists (especially seen in all-female groups) who worship only the Goddess, polytheists who ally themselves and serve one aspect but believe in and include many as in the third level of Gardnerian initiation. There are even agnostics and atheists as with almost any other religion.

Even in the British Traditional form, as the one descended from Gardner's studies, there has often been discussion of different names and aspects of deities.

These are all Wicca. Some descended from the Gardnerian tradition and taken new forms even as Christianity has over the years. It's even more of a grey area, however, given that there is no set Bible of a divine authority as in the Judeo-Christian and Muslim beliefs. Even the Rede itself speaks of morality and not divinity.

Community and communion with the world are two things foundational to Wicca as a religion, even in solitary practice. Gods and goddesses are or are not depending on the tradition you follow.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

We know that they're not necessary for every religion. That's not what the op is saying.

We here take the standpoint that Wicca is initiatory and always traceable through those initiations to Gardner. There are threads discussing this in this forum. While understandings of the lord and lady necessarily vary due to Wicca's experiential nature, Wicca itself is fairly clearly ditheistic.

The rede is not part of Wicca proper, so not really relevant to your thesis here... Wicca's version of the bible is its rituals, which maintain the same core regardless of tradition. This is how Wicca is protected and maintained as one religion with the correct teachings. If anything its less corruptible than a written bible... But that really remains to be seen. Give Wicca more than half a century and then we'll check back.  

[Eliamaraleth]

Given our difference of definitions, I see that the post does not seem relevant. In which case I apologize for the random.

I fully respect your own definition of Wiccan tradition and theology, and certainly do not wish to win anyone over.

In that case, carry on!