Mixing Business with Religion

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

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Violet Song jat Shariff

I suppose it would depend on how much profit they would actually want to make.

I agree with you. In that case, if I feel I do not wish to do business with them, then I am free to do so, and they can enjoy their freedom to hang posters as they please.

Agreed.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

I'm sorry, I said a good, compelling reason.

I am sure for them following their religious path is a good and compelling reason.

I would further that by saying what reasoning they are employing from their respective religious path and how it fits in with the law of the land *may* be a good reason.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

I would say that claiming that one's conscience is a good, compelling reason for things opens up a huge ******** Pandora's Box.

And I feel that it would be valid up until it victimized others.

If their beliefs infringe upon another's rights, then I cannot support them. However, I do not feel this situation is remotely close to that.

Infringes on rights...I would agree - no, it doesn't. Infringing on someone's comfort and ability to fully enjoy a service that they have paid good money for? Yes. Infringing on ncsweet's responsibilities and choices as a parent? Yes.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

That's nice.
Is there a reason we should take the way you feel at face value or are you willing to explain in depth WHY you feel that way?

I apologize. For clarification, I feel that they are acting within their path and their actions are not directly harming anyone. I feel that because of this, their actions should be protected. I also feel that any discomfort we feel is inside of us, and we should deal with it there- rather than doing what we so dislike about them and inflicting it on those around us.

I see that as the only way to avoid hypocrisy.

There *are* smarter, more efficient ways to act within their path though. That's the point. I really don't think anyone here is saying "xtianitee iz r teh ebil and shud b dun away wit 4eva" just that there are smarter, more professional ways to incorporate their faith if they so wish.

And no, to inflict upon them what they are doing to some of their patrons would be to give them Pagan versions of Jack Chic tracks and remind them that Zeus loves them. Voicing discomfort over the decor isn't on the same playing field neutral

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Violet Song jat Shariff

See, I do. I have to wonder what one hopes to gain by spreading information about their misfortunes/weaknesses around for everyone to see. Doesn't seem a particularly wise or helpful thing to do.

Sometimes it is about accountability. If people understand your faults, they can support you in overcoming them.

That assumes though that everyone who enters has their best interest at heart. Which is also naive and doesn't show much forethought.

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I find it unlikely that this is the case, but I also feel that if it helps them or not, it isn't effecting me any more than I choose to allow it to, and that any discomfort I feel with them should be addressed so I could heal.

Why this fixation on healing?

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Violet Song jat Shariff

In displaying things in such an obvious, glaring way, it ceases to be about what is right for them and bleeds over into them deciding what is right for everyone who enters their establishment.

But that is what is right for them- they feel their position is the correct one and they are trying to help.

Unless they can objectively prove to me that their way is the right, correct way for me, I honestly don't give two ******** what they think or feel. I would actually be further insulted that they think my faith can be so easily won over by some pretty words on their walls.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

Not everything heals. Not everything NEEDS to heal. To simply suggest "deal and heal" is mildly insulting to the issue.
Why not suggest that the business owners need to explore their feelings of turbulence in their faith and heal?

I believe they should as well, but I felt that was outside of the scope of the topic.

Erm, not really considering a few quotes above here we were discussing the owner's potential struggles with their own faith.

But, let me see if I have this correct; it's totally fine and okay for the owners to drag their own potential religious struggles out into the open for any and all to see and be exposed to so long as it is helpful to them in some way...but when someone else ends up having their own faith-related struggle because of that, they should keep their head down and mouth shut and not make a fuss about it? You know, nevermind if that actually helps them heal or not.

Am I missing anything?

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Could you explain why it is insulting to suggest that healing is important? I am afraid I don't understand.

No, the whole "deal and heal" mentality is insulting. It seems that this places full blame on the person who is feeling amiss and that it is something wrong with them and that there are no contributing outside factors. It strikes me as similar to blaming a rape victim for being raped.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

Yes, modern ISLAMIC banking institutions. I honestly can think of no Western banking company that is taking up the practice of getting ride of usury.

I understand. I used it as an example because there are places where businesses do not separate themselves form their religious practices. I included it because I wanted to provide an example where ethics did not prohibit the blending of religious and professional standards.

I would venture a guess that in places where Usury is forbidden, it is also an issue of following Shariah or Shariah-inspired law. So that adds the layer of legal standards as well.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

As ncsweet has said, the businesses in question are not inherently Christian businesses; that surprise comes after one has already entered. And there really isn't precedence in Christianity for splashing one's faith up on the walls of their business. Rather, if they wanted to stick to the way Christianity was spread, they would be going and spreading it via word of mouth.

I don't feel there needs to be a precedence for them to adapt to modern culture any more than any of us need a precedence to use a computer to talk about ancient religions or ancient cultures. I feel it would make more sense to instead come up with a reason that the religious expressions should be limited to what was found in ancient times since people carried the religion forward through time, they did not do so devoid of other influences.

Even the Amish use designs that weren't part of ancient Christianity.

I was sort of carrying on with the idea of usury and its inception, but meh. I see that train has left.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

I would argue that in those instances it is tolerated a bit better because 1) those are not proselytizing faiths and 2) those symbols can be and are just as much cultural icons as they are religious icons.

Why would the desire for people to help others see their truth be a reason to respond with intolerance?

Why? Why is showing discomfort suddenly "OMGINTOLERANCE!"?
ncsweet is certainly not calling for the establishments to be shut down, or for the owners to be run out of town on a rail. She is observing that ya know, maybe they haven't thought out their business plan as well as they thought they had and it's frustrating as a patron to have things like that sprung on them.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Violet Song jat Shariff

I would further that by saying what reasoning they are employing from their respective religious path and how it fits in with the law of the land *may* be a good reason.

I can agree with this.

Violet Song jat Shariff

Infringes on rights...I would agree - no, it doesn't. Infringing on someone's comfort and ability to fully enjoy a service that they have paid good money for? Yes. Infringing on ncsweet's responsibilities and choices as a parent? Yes.

I do not feel this is infringing on people's comfort in and of itself, since they can choose to not use the space or explore the reason for the discomfort and address it.

Violet Song jat Shariff

There *are* smarter, more efficient ways to act within their path though.

I agree, there are. I also feel that not everyone responds to those, and not everyone is able to implement them. There are ways that are smarter, more graceful, more polite, simply better- however that manifests. But I feel that since people are different, that our feelings of what is better shouldn't be held to the exclusion of other options simply because of our preference. What works for me, may not work for you. In the fourth grade I was part of a pioneering program in my school district designed to address the different styles of learning for students so that people who were visual learners were not taught in a style that worked for linear learners.

I feel that allowing those differences to exist without distress is a benefit for all involved and the only way I see that happening is by learning to accept how we are different and work to address the feelings we have when we see differences causing us problems.

Violet Song jat Shariff

That's the point. I really don't think anyone here is saying "xtianitee iz r teh ebil and shud b dun away wit 4eva" just that there are smarter, more professional ways to incorporate their faith if they so wish.

I agree that people aren't saying that Christians are evil. And I agree that there are ways we approve of more than others. I also feel that it is a disservice to expect others to favor our preferences without deference to what works best for them.

Violet Song jat Shariff

And no, to inflict upon them what they are doing to some of their patrons would be to give them Pagan versions of Jack Chic tracks and remind them that Zeus loves them. Voicing discomfort over the decor isn't on the same playing field neutral

I feel that your example would be a literal example of inflicting a similar situation of them.
I feel in a broader sense, that the situation is about asking others to put our personal preference above theirs. Their personal preference is to have the posters up on their walls. Our personal preference is to have them take them down.

Both of us are asking the inverse of the other- that is what I meant with my previous statement.

Violet Song jat Shariff

That assumes though that everyone who enters has their best interest at heart. Which is also naive and doesn't show much forethought.

Sometimes naivety comes with a heavy price. I feel it is their choice to pay it or not. I feel it doesn't assume that everyone who enters has their best interest at heart either. I feel there is room for people who be apathetic towards the posters, there are people who may have their interest at heart and their are people who may use it against them. I think of it more as pool of possible responses, and the may decide that the odds are worth it.

Violet Song jat Shariff

Why this fixation on healing?

I don't feel it is a fixation any more than a single response to the posters themselves would be considered a fixation.

For whatever reason, there is distress over seeing the posters. I feel the most obvious options are to allow the distress to continue, to get into a confrontation over the posters, to avoid them or to eliminate the distress internally.

I feel because of how the information is presented, that the best option is to eliminate the distress.

Violet Song jat Shariff

Unless they can objectively prove to me that their way is the right, correct way for me, I honestly don't give two ******** what they think or feel.

If you don't care about what they think or feel, there I fail to see why there is any problem to begin with. Apathy doesn't create this kind of situation.

Violet Song jat Shariff

I would actually be further insulted that they think my faith can be so easily won over by some pretty words on their walls.

I can understand how that would feel insulting. But I do not think that would be the line of thought. I think it's more likely that they would view it as a dialogue opener.

Violet Song jat Shariff

Erm, not really considering a few quotes above here we were discussing the owner's potential struggles with their own faith.

True, but I feel this was addressed in my earlier statement. I also did not intend to blend some of these issues into each other.

Violet Song jat Shariff

But, let me see if I have this correct; it's totally fine and okay for the owners to drag their own potential religious struggles out into the open for any and all to see and be exposed to so long as it is helpful to them in some way...but when someone else ends up having their own faith-related struggle because of that, they should keep their head down and mouth shut and not make a fuss about it? You know, nevermind if that actually helps them heal or not.

Am I missing anything?

I do feel this is a misrepresentation my position.
I agree that it is acceptable for the owners to display their religious message- whatever their motivations. I feel that as a business owner, they are entitled to run their business as they see fit within the bounds of the law and as long as they are not intentionally harming people.

I feel they cannot be responsible for the manifestation of personal issues in others when their actions follow that as a guideline. Thinking on it, I believe that because they are not doing something that is deliberately harmful, they can't be held accountable for other's feelings or thoughts. I feel this is the personal responsibility of those who have those feelings and thoughts.

If ncsweet wishes to choose one of the other resolutions, then I would support her in that.

Violet Song jat Shariff

No, the whole "deal and heal" mentality is insulting. It seems that this places full blame on the person who is feeling amiss and that it is something wrong with them and that there are no contributing outside factors. It strikes me as similar to blaming a rape victim for being raped.

I don't consider that to be a fair analogy because the very act of being a victim is having something forced upon you with no options for resolution.

I feel there are options for resolution here, and some are favored over others.

Violet Song jat Shariff

I would venture a guess that in places where Usury is forbidden, it is also an issue of following Shariah or Shariah-inspired law. So that adds the layer of legal standards as well.

I find it fascinating. I am hoping to study Islamic culture at Uni.

Violet Song jat Shariff

Why? Why is showing discomfort suddenly "OMGINTOLERANCE!"?

I do not feel my position justified that hyperbole either. It's not OMGINTOLERANCE, it's simple intolerance.
It is intolerance in that the posters are not being well tolerated. I feel this is being played out by the reactions to their presence and in some of the reasoning of the posts here.
I feel this form of intolerance isn't well justified, but I can understand the reactions I am seeing.

Violet Song jat Shariff

ncsweet is certainly not calling for the establishments to be shut down, or for the owners to be run out of town on a rail. She is observing that ya know, maybe they haven't thought out their business plan as well as they thought they had and it's frustrating as a patron to have things like that sprung on them.

I agree. I don't feel that ncsweet is suggesting anything of the sort.

At the same time, I feel it is important for anyone who is having a strong emotional reaction to any situation to explore it and understand it so that for their own health, they are able to choose strategies that will work for them.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Brass Bell Doll

Violet Song jat Shariff

Infringes on rights...I would agree - no, it doesn't. Infringing on someone's comfort and ability to fully enjoy a service that they have paid good money for? Yes. Infringing on ncsweet's responsibilities and choices as a parent? Yes.

I do not feel this is infringing on people's comfort in and of itself, since they can choose to not use the space or explore the reason for the discomfort and address it.

How you feel on it is quite irrelevant at this point as there already has been discomfort felt by one of the business' patrons at least.

ncsweet *has* identified the reason for discomfort - what outwardly appears to be a secular establishment is hiding religious tidbits on the inside and gives her concern over her own judgments and decisions as a parent. And she *is* addressing it - she is discussing it.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

There *are* smarter, more efficient ways to act within their path though.

I agree, there are. I also feel that not everyone responds to those, and not everyone is able to implement them. There are ways that are smarter, more graceful, more polite, simply better- however that manifests. But I feel that since people are different, that our feelings of what is better shouldn't be held to the exclusion of other options simply because of our preference. What works for me, may not work for you. In the fourth grade I was part of a pioneering program in my school district designed to address the different styles of learning for students so that people who were visual learners were not taught in a style that worked for linear learners.

And you're forgetting the other side - sometimes people react quite negatively.

To go with your story/analogy, the business situation is akin to forcing linear learners to learn the same way visual learners do, and the solution being to tell them "LOL go 2 difrunt skool." neutral

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I feel that allowing those differences to exist without distress is a benefit for all involved and the only way I see that happening is by learning to accept how we are different and work to address the feelings we have when we see differences causing us problems.

I know you haven't known ncsweet as long as I have...but she does accept that people are different and is quite okay with that within reason. And she feels that having this unpleasant surprise sprung on her while trying to enjoy some time with her son is disruptive to say the least. I am in no position to tell her to "deal and heal" and I'm really not sure why you feel qualified for it either.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

That's the point. I really don't think anyone here is saying "xtianitee iz r teh ebil and shud b dun away wit 4eva" just that there are smarter, more professional ways to incorporate their faith if they so wish.

I agree that people aren't saying that Christians are evil. And I agree that there are ways we approve of more than others. I also feel that it is a disservice to expect others to favor our preferences without deference to what works best for them.

Also, no one is asking others to favor our preferences; all anyone is asking for is some basic common courtesy. Kind of like how when we tell someone "No thank you" when they knock on our door with a Bible and a speech about The Good News, we expect them to go away.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

And no, to inflict upon them what they are doing to some of their patrons would be to give them Pagan versions of Jack Chic tracks and remind them that Zeus loves them. Voicing discomfort over the decor isn't on the same playing field neutral

I feel that your example would be a literal example of inflicting a similar situation of them.
I feel in a broader sense, that the situation is about asking others to put our personal preference above theirs. Their personal preference is to have the posters up on their walls. Our personal preference is to have them take them down.

You didn't give me any reason to think you didn't mean literally....

Again, no, this is not about ncsweet's preferences > theirs. She is not inflicting her own wants and wishes on them in a direct way as they are with their own preferences to her.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

That assumes though that everyone who enters has their best interest at heart. Which is also naive and doesn't show much forethought.

Sometimes naivety comes with a heavy price. I feel it is their choice to pay it or not.

It would seem they aren't the only ones paying however.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

Why this fixation on healing?

I don't feel it is a fixation any more than a single response to the posters themselves would be considered a fixation.

For whatever reason, there is distress over seeing the posters. I feel the most obvious options are to allow the distress to continue, to get into a confrontation over the posters, to avoid them or to eliminate the distress internally.
I feel because of how the information is presented, that the best option is to eliminate the distress.

Simply telling one to "heal" seems vague, at best.

Violet Song jat Shariff

Unless they can objectively prove to me that their way is the right, correct way for me, I honestly don't give two ******** what they think or feel.

If you don't care about what they think or feel, there I fail to see why there is any problem to begin with. Apathy doesn't create this kind of situation.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

I would actually be further insulted that they think my faith can be so easily won over by some pretty words on their walls.

I can understand how that would feel insulting. But I do not think that would be the line of thought. I think it's more likely that they would view it as a dialogue opener.

What kind of dialogue? With whom? Are the business owners out and about talking to all of the guests about the verses?

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Violet Song jat Shariff

But, let me see if I have this correct; it's totally fine and okay for the owners to drag their own potential religious struggles out into the open for any and all to see and be exposed to so long as it is helpful to them in some way...but when someone else ends up having their own faith-related struggle because of that, they should keep their head down and mouth shut and not make a fuss about it? You know, nevermind if that actually helps them heal or not.

Am I missing anything?

I agree that it is acceptable for the owners to display their religious message- whatever their motivations. I feel that as a business owner, they are entitled to run their business as they see fit within the bounds of the law and as long as they are not intentionally harming people.

Agreed.

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I feel they cannot be responsible for the manifestation of personal issues in others when their actions follow that as a guideline. Thinking on it, I believe that because they are not doing something that is deliberately harmful, they can't be held accountable for other's feelings or thoughts. I feel this is the personal responsibility of those who have those feelings and thoughts.

Intent or not - harm is still there.
Intent! It's ******** magic!.

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If ncsweet wishes to choose one of the other resolutions, then I would support her in that.

I kinda think that ncsweet can carry out whatever method of dealing well on her own.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

No, the whole "deal and heal" mentality is insulting. It seems that this places full blame on the person who is feeling amiss and that it is something wrong with them and that there are no contributing outside factors. It strikes me as similar to blaming a rape victim for being raped.

I don't consider that to be a fair analogy because the very act of being a victim is having something forced upon you with no options for resolution.

I feel there are options for resolution here, and some are favored over others.

For the duration she was there while her son was enjoying himself that was pretty much the case. She really didn't have an option for resolution at that immediate moment to alleviate her own discomfort and protect her child from something she viewed as not conducive to his up-bringing.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

I would venture a guess that in places where Usury is forbidden, it is also an issue of following Shariah or Shariah-inspired law. So that adds the layer of legal standards as well.

I find it fascinating. I am hoping to study Islamic culture at Uni.

It's interesting, but I don't think I could live under Shariah Law, much less Shariah-inspired law.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

Why? Why is showing discomfort suddenly "OMGINTOLERANCE!"?

I do not feel my position justified that hyperbole either. It's not OMGINTOLERANCE, it's simple intolerance.
It is intolerance in that the posters are not being well tolerated. I feel this is being played out by the reactions to their presence and in some of the reasoning of the posts here.
I feel this form of intolerance isn't well justified, but I can understand the reactions I am seeing.

Well, it went from ncsweet venting about how she felt it was inappropriate to decorate in a manner and how it made her uncomfortable and how she felt it affected her authority as a parent. She also expressed that she wishes businesses that are not inherently religious would think twice about displaying those kinds of messages. The next think we know, you're talking about intolerance and the way we are expressing it towards the business owners neutral

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Violet Song jat Shariff

ncsweet is certainly not calling for the establishments to be shut down, or for the owners to be run out of town on a rail. She is observing that ya know, maybe they haven't thought out their business plan as well as they thought they had and it's frustrating as a patron to have things like that sprung on them.

I agree. I don't feel that ncsweet is suggesting anything of the sort.

At the same time, I feel it is important for anyone who is having a strong emotional reaction to any situation to explore it and understand it so that for their own health, they are able to choose strategies that will work for them.

You seem to be keen on doling out emotional/mental health advice - how are you in any way qualified to do this?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Wtf happened here. Sweet was ranting, and suddenly we're having an in-depth discussion about tolerance? Seriously? Sweet is allowed to rant, she's allowed to be frustrated, and she is allowed to be offended.

Or are we too intolerant to allow rants anymore? rolleyes  

[ncsweet]

While I was ranting, I was also asking as to the appropriateness of mixing religion and business in general.

If feel that if one is going to make their religious choices a large part (or in this case a very "visual" part) of their business, then it needs to be stated/noted somewhere from the outset. Obviously they feel the need to "get the word" out, and think that using their business to do so is a good idea, and that is their choice. But if that is their choice, then they need to properly advertise that. This place has a website, I of course checked it out, since I was considering taking my son there. A simple line or two in the owner's bios, or even the business description would do wonders, and give potential customers the opportunity to say - yes I want my child exposed to that or, no maybe not today.

What comes to mind is that there are other religions that are not tolerant of other faiths that are different, and where I'm just ranty over it, they might take a stronger view of having their children exposed to something that was outside of their own teachings.  

[rmcdra]

Brass Bell Doll

I do not feel this is always the case.

Why?

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I feel that some people need different tools in learning and teaching. I also feel that being respectful and patient with others means tolerating the differences between us.

Agreed.

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I believe you feel that what he did was wrong.

There's no feeling about this. I know this was not condoned by my God because I know of my God. Personal gnosis aside, there is no scripture, canonical NT or heretical, supporting that the God of Yeshua would tell someone to leave a relationship in such a cruel manner.

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But I also feel that there is likely more to this story than first meets the eye. Would you be willing to provide more information on it?

I'll have to dig for it but I'll get it to you when I can find it again.

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Could you explain why you feel that way?

The place is advertised as a secular business. To advertise a place as a secular business and then have religious propaganda posted is dishonest to and deceitful toward the customers entering this establishment. They are shooting themselves in the foot because teachers are supposed to be people you can trust. How can you trust them as teachers when they have lied about who they are from the start?

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I completely agree. But here we are speaking of posters and the intention and practice of putting them up in a business. I felt the context was clear, but if you would like, I am willing to be more explicit in my statements in the future.

Yes please because you words indicated that such behavior would be tolerable.

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I suppose the reason I am hurt by your words is that I feel that even if it is shallow by your standards, to speak of them poorly or to say that your way is better than theirs devalues others and how they seek, learn and grow. Mayhaps all their seeking- all of our seeking, will only be shallow to the eyes of some. But if it is honest and hard-won, I feel that it is still beautiful, even if it is not as masterful as the learning of others.

All Christians are seekers of the kingdom of Heaven, but the people running the business in question are setting themselves up as those who have sought enough to have the understanding of a teacher and can teach others how to begin seeking or find the Kingdom. How can we trust them as teachers when they have lied and misrepresented themselves to potential seekers?

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I often feel that I will pass from this world as unenlightened as I entered it. I struggle with my own attempts to learn and walk my path. I trip, and fall, and rise again. I may not be as far up the mountain as you are, but I hope to be there some day, and it saddens me that I may not have the opportunity to be a friend to some because I am so far behind them. I struggle with thoughts of worthiness and doubt. But I feel I have to keep going. I am sure as you see them as shallow, others have thought such of me. Mayhaps in my life I shall not be as shallow. Mayhaps in the next. Or the one after that. But I feel that I can still grow, and learn and as long as I keep working at it, I feel I have done as I should.

What does this have to do with the topic? I am not against evangelism. I am saying that their methods of evangelism are dishonest and only shallowly supported by scripture.

@Sanguina
I'm wondering that myself and why I'm being accused of being intolerant because I don't agree with the methods?  

[Brass Bell Doll]

I feel there has been a gross misunderstanding here and I do apologize for any offense I have caused.

I believe that any each of us has the right to feel as we do. I also believe that any feelings that cause distress should be examined. When I selected the term intolerance, it meant that there was a lack of acceptance and energy being put forth to reinforce those feelings.

I respect ncsweet's right to rant. I would hope that the same courtesy to comment would be extended to others as well, even if they disagree.

I believed this was a place where in depth discussions could take place and I still believe that. I'm completely confused how a simple disagreement leads to hyperbole and frustration and I feel that the distortion of my opinion is not furthering the open exchange of ideas.

If my words have come across as anything less than polite, I am very sorry. That was not my intention at all and I would invite people to ask for any clarification necessary.

In conclusion, I feel that an emotional response to these posters is a signal that there is personal development to be had by exploring those feelings. This isn't limited to this situation of course, but since it is the topic at hand, I felt it would be worthwhile to mention it.

My personal experience with this has occurred twice. One was at a surgeon's private office and the other was at a chiropractor's office. The decorations were lovely, but they reference scripture and papers written by Saints.

It made me uncomfortable, and it was almost a decade before I explored why. If it is of interest, I would be willing to discuss it further, but it's intensely personal. And my experience with such a situation will not be everyone's, nor should it be. I feel it is important to honor people where they are in their process. I merely wished to share my position as others have done.  

[ncsweet]

I think that part of my problem with this particular instance, is more of the way they were doing it, rather than that they were doing it at all. If it had been a bit more understated, or even tastefully done, I probably wouldn't have had near the issues with it.

The coffee shop that I mentioned in my first post as well, had verses decoratively stenciled on the walls, but at least it fit in with the rest of the shop. Where as the Fun Center has these blank white walls, and only these huge brightly colored posters - so you can't miss them (even if you were trying).

Oddly enough, I have a better understanding of why some people get upset when confronted with the phrase "blessed be", because where I might have been ok enough with the decor in the Coffee shop, his parting words were - not so much offensive in any way, but just somewhat uncomfortable - as it was something along the lines of giving God's Blessings to us as we (and other customers) left with our purchases. Though in his particular case I got the impression that it was just his way of being nice, but again it assumes that everyone is of the same faith and will welcome such comments.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Brass Bell Doll

When I selected the term intolerance, it meant that there was a lack of acceptance and energy being put forth to reinforce those feelings.

There's a significant difference between "tolerance" and "acceptance", imo.

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I respect ncsweet's right to rant. I would hope that the same courtesy to comment would be extended to others as well, even if they disagree.

And it has been. What I mostly take issue with is the interpretation of a clear rant as something of the utmost seriousness. It's like you didn't view it as a rant. It's fine to have reached that misunderstanding, so long as you now understand it.

Why do you italicise names? It comes off as sarcastic.

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I believed this was a place where in depth discussions could take place and I still believe that. I'm completely confused how a simple disagreement leads to hyperbole and frustration and I feel that the distortion of my opinion is not furthering the open exchange of ideas.

Honestly? The hyperbole I saw was caused mostly by your posts. From reading this thread it was you giving the most attention to unimportant tangents or details and you hyping up a simple rant thread with discussion addendum into some sort of debate about feelings and intolerance. Most frustration resulted directly from your hyperbole.

That and all your "I feel". You don't feel, you think. You think that the perceived distortion of your opinion is not furthering the open exchange of ideas. You feel emotion, you think thoughts. You feel distressed, upset, angry, frustrated, happy, confused etc.

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In conclusion, I feel that an emotional response to these posters is a signal that there is personal development to be had by exploring those feelings. This isn't limited to this situation of course, but since it is the topic at hand, I felt it would be worthwhile to mention it.

Why do you feel so much? And why ask strangers about their emotions in such a way? Are you unaware that there are social barriers that one shouldn't cross in such a way until one has formed stronger acquaintance with the individual in question? Why do you feel the emotional response - or the strength of faith - of others you barely know is yours to question?

Quote:

It made me uncomfortable, and it was almost a decade before I explored why. If it is of interest, I would be willing to discuss it further, but it's intensely personal.

...and yet you freely ask this of others. Do you not think it might be personal for them too? Why do you fee it appropriate to ask?

EDIT: Just an FYI. You are free to say much in this guild. However, as in all things you cannot speak your mind without knowing others can also speak their minds, and if your words turn those minds in opposition to you, this is something you must accept and consider before you speak. It's not something you can really b***h about afterwards. Freedom of speech is for everyone, and getting a harsh reaction isn't infringing upon your freedom of speech. It's other people exercising their own.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Sanguina Cruenta

There's a significant difference between "tolerance" and "acceptance", imo.

I can understand why you would hold that view.

Could you explain what you feel the difference is?

Sanguina Cruenta

And it has been. What I mostly take issue with is the interpretation of a clear rant as something of the utmost seriousness. It's like you didn't view it as a rant. It's fine to have reached that misunderstanding, so long as you now understand it.

I feel I do understand it now. But I also feel that even a rant can be a tool to develop insight.

Sanguina Cruenta

Why do you italicise names? It comes off as sarcastic.

It's an honorific in other forums I participate in used especially when people do not capitalize their usernames.

Would you be willing to explain why you assumed it was sarcastic?

Sanguina Cruenta

Honestly? The hyperbole I saw was caused mostly by your posts. From reading this thread it was you giving the most attention to unimportant tangents or details and you hyping up a simple rant thread with discussion addendum into some sort of debate about feelings and intolerance. Most frustration resulted directly from your hyperbole.

I do not feel I engaged in hyperbole. I was speaking to the possible meaning of certain actions, their intention, and how we process experiences.

Sanguina Cruenta

That and all your "I feel". You don't feel, you think.

I wish to clarify this.

There are many people who process the world differently, with emphasis placed on different means to knowledge. I feel it is most unfair for you to correct my commentary about my learning style. I respect those who process the world differently: linear, analytical thought is a great tool to use. Global, intuitive thought is also a great tool. I would like that same courtesy in kind.

Sanguina Cruenta

You think that the perceived distortion of your opinion is not furthering the open exchange of ideas. You feel emotion, you think thoughts. You feel distressed, upset, angry, frustrated, happy, confused etc.

I feel that the distortion does not further the discussion because it changes the core of the conversation. The open exchange of ideas will continue to be open, but when the distortion is so great that people are no longer speaking of the same thing, it can stop being an exchange very quickly.

Sanguina Cruenta

Why do you feel so much?

It's a part of my personal development in response to trauma. Having shut down my feelings for a long time to deal with the trauma, as I processed it I needed to redevelop my emotional connection.

Sanguina Cruenta

And why ask strangers about their emotions in such a way?

I often relate to others and the world around me through personal interaction.

Sanguina Cruenta

Are you unaware that there are social barriers that one shouldn't cross in such a way until one has formed stronger acquaintance with the individual in question?

I respect other's boundaries. At the same time, no communication occurs without someone asking first. If someone wishes to discontinue a line of inquiry, they need but say so. Especially since some are more open than others.

Because of this, I like to ask questions, and I respect people's responses. If anyone wishes to not answer for whatever reason, they need but say so.

Sanguina Cruenta

Why do you feel the emotional response - or the strength of faith - of others you barely know is yours to question?

Because questions are the only method for learning in this circumstance.

Sanguina Cruenta

...and yet you freely ask this of others. Do you not think it might be personal for them too? Why do you fee it appropriate to ask?

It may be very personal. All I can do is ask. I felt it was more respectful than making assumptions or demanding the information.

Sanguina Cruenta

EDIT: Just an FYI. You are free to say much in this guild. However, as in all things you cannot speak your mind without knowing others can also speak their minds, and if your words turn those minds in opposition to you, this is something you must accept and consider before you speak. It's not something you can really b***h about afterwards. Freedom of speech is for everyone, and getting a harsh reaction isn't infringing upon your freedom of speech. It's other people exercising their own.

I understand, but at the same time, opposition does not always need to be harsh. I have done by very best to be able to speak without being harsh and I felt I had done a good job until I realize that people where having immense frustration- a response I couldn't understand and largely still do not understand.