On the Quality and Intention of Words

[AvalonAuggie]

maenad nuri

I'm actually going to disagree and say that intent isn't primary. While it has it's place, if what is said does cause harm or distress (and not needfully to the person that it is being conveyed too), that is more important to me.

The reaction is primary. If we say the intent is primary, then anyone can hide behind "BUT I DIDN'T MEAN IT"

you make a good point. I feel like the reaction is of primary importance in these dialogue problems, but the intent is the cause of the problem and the words can be horrible or "safe" and the intent drives them.

When people hide behind "I didn't mean it" they are either lying (to the subject and/or themselves) or else they honestly didn't mean it, which is in my view so much worse. Because the culture of privilege insulates those who benefit from it from being aware of the harm they can (unintentionally) cause. Overt bigotry is one problem, but subtle, widespread ignorance is another, and a huge can of worms.

ETA: Regarding learned cultural assumptions and The Childrens, This Article on Wired showcases some research done in a book which I sadly haven't read all of, but what I have read is fantastic.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Punish the ignorant for their ignorance and they may retreat further into it. In denying the opportunity to rectify one's personal failings, those failings are tacitly encouraged.
Language belongs to those who use it. With a very widespread language, you will have diverse usage. What is a slur in one place may not be used as such in another. The influence of mass media is working to homogenize speech patterns, however, individual pockets remain.

Privilege happens. I doubt I will ever see a society free of it. Meritocracy is a dirty word. It reeks of privilege. Even if that privilege is gained rather than inherent. Further, the family concept is a core device for othering. Mayhaps the monkey-sphere is correct. In small enough communities we can have polite and caring interaction, but beyound that othering is inevitable. The idea that humanity has an inherent limit on the amount of genuine concern that can be shown disturbs me... yet it also explains much. It also raises the question of whether expecting one to overcome these inherent limitations is not similar to asking a person to grow wings and fly. Or change their skin tone to something we find more palatable.

Also, I for one, sometimes wish to display my displeasure with someone using something other than physicality. I use vile words to propperly punctuate vile thoughts. I'm not current on the full list of slurs, nor do I care to be. I'll invent one, or repattern a theme if the need for more arises.

The final, and most important note on this... I may find certain words distasteful, and whole-heartedly support their proscription in specific locations, however, if a person wishes to express themselves using such vulgarity, I must uphold their ability to do so. On a personal level, I prefer honest hatred to false consideration. On a more global level, I uphold freedom of speech, even speech I don't like.

The question of whether intent remains when the word is removed... well, as much as I enjoyed 1984 I am of fair certainty that concepts will continue, even without the words to articulate them. Washing slurs out of a language is like covering leprosy with cosmetics. The disease is still there, even if it is not as obvious.
As for fighting the disease itself, good luck. For only the vicissitudes of chance can break the causal chain that is constantly reinforcing this ailment.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

maenad nuri

I'm actually going to disagree and say that intent isn't primary. While it has it's place, if what is said does cause harm or distress (and not needfully to the person that it is being conveyed too), that is more important to me.

The reaction is primary. If we say the intent is primary, then anyone can hide behind "BUT I DIDN'T MEAN IT"

It is only meaningful energetically. Since we don't live in that "world"... it doesn't really "matter". It doesn't matter to us because it doesn't really affect our day to day lives.

We can't Read intent. To me it seems a bit cruel to impose our definitions on others because we can't see past our own pain to see others intents. But Then... most people aren't "empathic".

Then again... you have many people who do intend to do harm and I end up getting very Angry at them even if their actions are ineffectual and they are lame.

I've had people Try to hurt me. Try to be cruel and try to hide it under false positive disguises. Try to set me up to think that other people are saying things about me when it was really them etc. Its a complicated world we live in. I value honesty and meaning over seeming every time....

But thats a Personal Choice. People can choose to believe in whatever level of meaning and what ever meanings they want... but it doesn't change the other person and it doesn't change their intent or will.

People have misguided attempts at helping others... I value their desire. I want to fix their ignorance and give them possitive methods to helping.  

[Deoridhe]

maenad nuri

This is the best start you can make, actually. My journey into privilege started with learning binary opposition in English 100, tripled after meeting Deo, got a crash course from a Philosophy of sex and values class and lots of reading.

I had the unique experience today of carefully explaining the concept of trans gender to one of my mentally ill clients, with a side-line on why "f*****t" is a slur and what words should be used instead, to having a client seemingly deliberately use the slur "dyke" in order to upset me.

My head hurts. -_-;;

kage no neko

I just fail to see how anyone has power right now, besides the upper class. And that power is completely based on money.

That's really not true, unfortunately.

AvalonAuggie

I'm also fond of the totally loaded question "Where are you from?" to which I invariably respond, "here."

Margaret Cho ha a lovely story about when she was doing publicity junket for her show, All American Girl and was asked to say something in her native language. So she said it in her native language - English.

kage no neko

But if you don't mind me asking.. How would you rather someone word that, so that it doesn't insult you?

Honestly, if you're not in the habit of asking that question of every person you meet, regardless of skin tone, why would you ask if of people with a darker skin tone or physical characteristics that seemed different?

I've gotten into fascinating conversations with friends about our heritages - once I discovered a dear friend was likely related to me along the German end of my heritage as the last name of my mother's father and her last name were similar enough - but those are discussions with friends and include self-disclosure, not just an assumption that one has the right to be privy to information about the heritage and background of another person, often an acquaintance or stranger.

Out of curiosity - what race do people think my friend who is likely related to me is?


Side notes: W. Kamau Bell is awesome; Project Implicit can teach you a lot.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

I felt the PBS Race- the power of illusion was helpful.
It explores some of the assumptions we can make.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm  

[kage no neko]

I realize it's a couple days late, but last night I remembered one of the things I had forgotten.

About how men aren't always the privileged.
Like in child dispute cases. How it was actually proven that they favored the mother over the father (although the courts have apparently been trying to change this). And whether he's granted permission to see the kid(s) or not, he still has to pay child support.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

kage no neko

I realize it's a couple days late, but last night I remembered one of the things I had forgotten.

About how men aren't always the privileged.
Like in child dispute cases. How it was actually proven that they favored the mother over the father (although the courts have apparently been trying to change this).

This is a good example of Women's Privilege.

Quote:

And whether he's granted permission to see the kid(s) or not, he still has to pay child support.

I do not feel this is an example of privilege, but of responsibility, since child support orders are dependent on who the custodial parent is. A woman who is not the custodial parent will be ordered to pay child support in the same situation a man is under the law.  

[maenad nuri]

Brass Bell Doll

kage no neko

I realize it's a couple days late, but last night I remembered one of the things I had forgotten.

About how men aren't always the privileged.
Like in child dispute cases. How it was actually proven that they favored the mother over the father (although the courts have apparently been trying to change this).

This is a good example of Women's Privilege.

With one cavet. It's almost always brought up in feminist discussions as a "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ!" which is a total and utter derail. See also, "Trannies trap unsuspecting people" and "welfare queens"  

[Fiddlers Green]

Deoridhe

That's really not true, unfortunately.

I hate police privilege. Especially when they use it to uphold
(likely) bigottry driven errors.

Quote:

Out of curiosity - what race do people think my friend who is likely related to me is?

Human? ninja  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Fiddlers Green

Deoridhe

Out of curiosity - what race do people think my friend who is likely related to me is?

Human? ninja

I was going to say elf.  

[Bastemhet]

Since I'm coming back late I'm just going to add some Helpful Links that I think people will benefit from.

Brass Bell Doll: You mentioned liking that blog, only problem is that it's not updated anymore. Racialicious is a great blog that writes about many people of color in the news and even in comics and video games.

AvalonAuggie: Being a person of mixed heritage myself, I really like this Bill of Rights for People of Mixed Heritage.

nuri: Since some people might not be familiar with tone arguments or derailing I'll link the Derailing for Dummies. I recently spoke to someone who used a lot of these tactics. The predictability is pathetic.  

[Deoridhe]

kage no neko

I realize it's a couple days late, but last night I remembered one of the things I had forgotten.

About how men aren't always the privileged.
Like in child dispute cases. How it was actually proven that they favored the mother over the father (although the courts have apparently been trying to change this). And whether he's granted permission to see the kid(s) or not, he still has to pay child support.

Um.... this is actually part of the discrimination against women. It's just sometimes a few men suffer for it.

Children are considered Woman's Stuff. In general, this means men aren't expected to interact with them much beyond earning money. In the past, what this often resulted in was men getting tired of dealing with their wives and children, divorcing the women, and abandoning the children. Hence child support.

If we want to undermine the inequality that says Children are Women's Stuff, then fine - this will result in Fathers being expected to have more effect on and involvement in their children's lives because they will do things like track their doctor's visits, take care of them when they're sick, etc... Placement may then go to the parent who is more qualified to parent the child independently with fiduciary and some intermittent support from the spouse and about half the time that may be the father.

If we want to say "Oh poor man, having to put out MONEY for those silly CHILDREN because WOMEN have all the rights and it's not fair then welcome to being part of the enforcement of the kyriarchiy's inequality against women which also, occasionally, negatively effects males. Often you will see this negative effect in their complaining about having to give money to the women. I have rarely heard popular songs or comedic complaints about men being denied access to their children.

I will also note that this inequality continues into birth control, which is also considered Women's Business despite men being half of the cause of a birth. A lot of the opposition to abortion, for example, is because women should have to "bear the consequences of their actions". For some reason, bearing a child one doesn't want and being expected to love and care for it for eighteen years is a valid "punishment" for having sex, but paying child support is just a horrible, horrible thing to do to someone.


To give a personal account re: child support - my parents divorced when I was a child. My mom began working. When I was 16 or so, my father sued to reduce his child support payments. At the time he was paying out a week - without any children in the home - what my mom was in a month - with two children at home.

Yeah, child support is such a burden on men.  

[Deoridhe]

Fiddlers Green

Deoridhe

That's really not true, unfortunately.

I hate police privilege. Especially when they use it to uphold
(likely) bigottry driven errors.

Police privilege and racial privilege often go in lockstep. In this case, police privilege was used to arrest a man in his home.

For some reason people are saying it's not racial. I find this incredibly unbelievable.