What is appropriate behaviour for a Witch?

[EdanaDesmond]

I'm 18. If I had known this would happen, I would never spent so much money on books or material possesions. The only way I can keep going to college is on tuition and the only way to do that is live at home. The only way to keep insurance on myself is to go to college full time. The only way to have money for food and gas is to work at least 20 or more hours a week. And more often then not I have very little money left to put away for a home for myself. My saving account has been taken over by my mother, and more often then not I feel like a caged animal...My father comes home more often then not drunk and my mother thinks its little more then a petty amusement...When I come home I lock myself in my room and dream and pray for a better place. If I work hard I can leave home at the end of spring '09. Then and only then will I tell them the truth, then and only then will I be safe.If I seem like a coward in anyone eyes that's ok, because someday, I will be strong enough to tell the truth, to my father.  

[PathlessPlot]

I don't think you are a coward. One has to do what one must to survive.  

[Leavaros]

Personal security takes precedence over everything? Tell that to the slaves who rose up against the Roman Empire alongside Sparticus. Safety over morals? Take that up with Mahatma Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr, and the masses that marched alongside them.

Do you know my greatest issue with mainstream Christians? They shove their faith in everyone's face. Ironically, most Pagans [that I know], have the opposite problem--they are all too willing to cast their circles and read their Rede in the dead of night, but come sun-up, they become unwilling to speak of their faith altogether. Some even flat-out lie, claiming protection as their highest priority, even over their sacred bonds to their gods.

I once entertained the notion that in every religion, there are people willing to "talk the talk, but not walk the walk", so to speak. But maybe for Pagans (and I should say Wiccans in particular), this is a backwards stereotype--many Pagans jump at the opportunity to Astral Project, or perform magic (with rhyme, no less!)--but far be it from most to actually study the Rede, or the origins and history of the Craft, not to mention the subtle intricacies thereof. What's more, it's become more or less taboo in many circles to speak to "outsiders" about it, as if somehow it's shameful, or (my personal favorite) "a sacred, personal thing between me and the Lord+/Lady"!

Kudos to you witches who actually entertain questions about your religion. Kudos to you witches who invite all of your friends--regardless of what you might think they might do--to your handfastings and celebrations of, say, Yule. All of you--open and accepting and inviting--are good people anyone should be proud to call friends, and those who aren't lose out. But truly, those people who are willing to talk about their personal relationship with their deity, who realize that openness makes the relationship no less sacred, are the ones that can not only call themselves good people, but also good worshipers.

I'm not always a good person. I'm proud and foolish and mean sometimes. I can be terribly crass, pessimistic, and generally foul at times. But at least no one can say that I'm a liar, and no one can say that I've lived a lie. I don't believe in much--just dreams and goodness and Love--but even so, I'm always honest. Even when it hurts. Because to be less than honest, to live in a web of half-truths and white lies, is not to live at all under the great blue sky and shining sun.

You want Summerland? Then make it here--be joyful, be true, be pure, and forgo all consequences to these ends. Be loving, be caring, be considerate and thoughtful, be wise and strong and well. But above all, be honest, because nothing good has ever come out of a lie, because even the whitest lie is darker than the blackest truth.

Love and Vale,
~Leavaros Dapple  

[Zsa Zsa]

I couldn't have said it better myself, Rebo Nicky.
Kat, you are doing everything you can to rectify your situation in life. You are not a coward, you are very brave, in fact.
Personally, I think your main priority in life should be school and planning for the future. Parent's just don't understand that their children are not their own, they are only on loan to them for a while. Your parents seem to be incapiable of trusting you to be able to do for yourself.
At least you can think of it this way, Kat, you are so close to the end. Even if you just spend half of your school career at home, and then the second half on your own, if you are willing to take on student loans and some debt doing things your way.

I suggest you open a new bank account separate from the one your mom has taken control of. Do everything you can to prepare yourself for an independent life, so you don't even have to worry that you would have to go home again.

@ Dark Angel
I know I can be wrong, but frankly, I fail to see how advice that avoidance of abuse is a in any way wrong. I never said she should keep her secret about her spirituality forever, only that she is assured of her mental and physical safety before attempting to open up to her family.

That is, unless you are talking about all the old posts from last month, in that case, I agree, Leavaros has some excellent points. We neither of us are completely right or completely wrong, but what works best for us.
Its just that when it comes to discussing religion and spirituality, truth and privacy, its never a one size fits all. Full disclosure will not work for everyone, no one should feel pressure to tell anyone anything unless they are ready or want too. It will help some people, it won't help others. As I keep saying, everyone needs to evaluate their own situation, everyone's needs are different.

Edit:

Leavaros

Personal security takes precedence over everything? Tell that to the slaves who rose up against the Roman Empire alongside Sparticus. Safety over morals? Take that up with Mahatma Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr, and the masses that marched alongside them.

And there is security in numbers. I'm not saying that we as people shouldn't take matters in our own hands, I'm willing to fight for the right reasons. But being passive isn't always a bad thing either, not everything is a battle. And I don't look on taking on a new spiritual path as taken on a new crusade. I'm not doing it for anyone else but myself, at this moment in time. My priorities may change in time. Call me selfish, if you want, at least I'm being honest about it. I took upon this path because I wanted peace in my life, not another fight. Right now, I'd rather listen and ask questions than speak on most things. If I continue down this path and advance accordingly, than it would be only appropriate for me to stand up for other people. Otherwise, in the mean time, I live in a very accepting country, with laws that protect my rights, people do practice their alternative religions in the open. I just watched on the news this evening Natives Peoples cleansing themselves in the smoke of sweet grass outside of a court house. There are Sikh temples next door to Buddhist ones in my own neighbourhood. The whole world is not against us. I see little oppression, and can see my energies fighting injustice better served by more pressing issues in my community, like poverty, and corporate corruption, or environmental issues. But, again... that is my situation. And I'm not saying that people of alternative faith facing discrimination in other countries are not my concern, but I also think that if I help serve my community to be the best place it can be, than a healthy community as a whole can help spread a positive message.

But that is all off topic anyways. I was never talking about trail blazing the pagan message and tolerance of all religions. I was strictly talking about an abuse in a home of a minor who's options are very limited. If someone needs to make sure they don't rock the boat until they can stand on their own feet, then, yes, avoiding a beating is an appropriate course of action, a better (proactive) one would be to tell someone like a councilor or social worker.  

[Nerd Poetica]

I'm sorry to say that I just cant agree with you, Leavaros. Truth is a wonderful thing, but the truth is no less true because not EVERYONE knows it. Sometimes telling the truth can be harmful, and in that instance telling the truth becomes a selfish act. Some people tell the truth to lighten the load on their own souls at the expense of an added weight on someone else's. And no matter what you say, I cannot see that as a good thing.

The world you live in and the philosophy you preach seem to be very black and white, whereas in the larger world most people deal with shades of gray. Please try to remember that not everyone is Ghandi, not everyone has the ability to become MLK JR., and NO ONE should feel that they need to tell an unnecessary truth in the face of personal danger. If they are safer when they keep a secret that harms no one, then they should keep that secret until they are out of harm's way. Honesty is not synonymous with telling everyone everything about yourself.

Who are you to condescend to people who claim to have a " sacred, personal relationship" with the Lord and Lady? Who are you to claim that anyone who is not comfortable with openly speaking about their faith is somehow ashamed of it? It seems like you are putting out a call to all Wiccans to start shoving their faith in the face of the general population just like the Christians! Why do you assume that people who do not speak openly are living in a world of half-truths and lies?! Many of your statements seem incredibly judgmental and presumptuous as well. Just because you don't feel the need to go blabbing to everyone about what you think and believe doesn't mean you are living a lie.

And to end with a rather trite closing, I think walking the walk means much, MUCH more than talking the talk.  

[dark_angel_32189]

@Zsa Zsa: I wasn't trying to say that you were wrong in what you said. What I was trying to get at was that I agree with what both of you have said, and for very different reasons.

Like I said, there's a good and a bad side to everything. The good thing about her keeping it a secret is, like you said, for her safety and survival. She's safe, she feel safe. And that is important.

The bad thing about her keeping it a secret is that she's hiding who she truly is from certain people. However, she isn't hiding it from everyone.

It's kind of like a lose-lose situation. Neither way is really all that great. But you have to find what works best for you.

Quote:

Its just that when it comes to discussing religion and spirituality, truth and privacy, its never a one size fits all. Full discloser will not work for everyone, no one should feel pressure to tell anyone anything unless they are ready or want too. It will help some people, it won't help others. As I keep saying, everyone needs to evaluate their own situation, everyone's needs are different.

I couldn't have said that any better myself. 3nodding


@Leavaros: I think it's great that you were able to come out and let people know who you really are. But sexuality and religion are two very different things. Whether or not you tell someone is a personal decision. You have no right to criticize someone for not wanting to tell the world they're Pagan. There are people that I've known for years that don't know I'm Pagan. Not because I'm afraid to tell them, not because I'm ashamed of who I am. But because it doesn't affect the friendship. Because it never comes up in discussion. There is such a thing as having too much pride, whether it be Pagan pride or gay pride or whatever else you can think of.



And there's a fine line betweening lying about who you are and just simply not discussing it with people that you don't feel comfortable with. I don't agree that if someone asks you what you religion you are and you tell them that you're Christian when you're really Pagan. That's lying about you are, not only to other people, but to yourself as well. That was why I said that if someone asks you about your religion and you don't wish to discuss it with them, be honest and tell them that you don't wish to discuss it and then change the subject. That way you're not lying to them. That way your not being untrue to yourself or anyone else.


Everyone is different, some people are more reserved than others, some are more open than others. Honestly Leavaros, I would think that you of all people would be the last person to judge someone like this. I'm very disappointed.  

[Zsa Zsa]

dark_angel_32189

@Zsa Zsa: I wasn't trying to say that you were wrong in what you said. What I was trying to get at was that I agree with what both of you have said, and for very different reasons.

Like I said, there's a good and a bad side to everything. The good thing about her keeping it a secret is, like you said, for her safety and survival. She's safe, she feel safe. And that is important.

The bad thing about her keeping it a secret is that she's hiding who she truly is from certain people. However, she isn't hiding it from everyone.

It's kind of like a lose-lose situation. Neither way is really all that great. But you have to find what works best for you.

Ah! Okay, so long as we're on the same page. Sometimes, as you well know, meaning doesn't always translate well on a written forum. I apologize if I appeared to be overly defensive at times, but this thread does get to me. mad xd  

[dark_angel_32189]

Zsa Zsa

Ah! Okay, so long as we're on the same page. Sometimes, as you well know, meaning doesn't always translate well on a written forum. I apologize if I appeared to be overly defensive at times, but this thread does get to me. mad xd

I am very aware of that. 3nodding

And I don't think you're alone on that... I think this thread gets to a lot of people  

[Nerd Poetica]

Quote:

And I don't think you're alone on that... I think this thread gets to a lot of people

Psshyeah!

Im not big on rants and would you just LOOK at that nice big one a couple posts up!  

[Deletemeplease80]

I think everyone has to make their own choice and own judgements. As I've said before, I haven't walked in Zsa Zsa's(or anyone elses) shoes- I've only walked in my own. Personally from what Kat has told us, I think her decision is a good one. Personal is safety is very important; and it sounds like she is in a bad situation. The important thing is that she's working on getting out of it. smile

If I had learned about Wicca 10 years ago as a minor, I'm not sure what I would have done. I really don't. Its hard enough as an adult at times.

While I do think its important to be honest and proud of who you are- if you are in a situation where you are living with or dependant on a parent/guardian, perhaps some sacrifices have to be made to get along. It doesn't mean you'll have to hide forever afterall. There is definitely a line between hiding/lieing about who you are, and shouting to the world that you cast spells. I think we each have to find our comfort level on our own, and grow with it over time.


(I know this is a touchy subject- its gotten to me as well at times, but the discussion has caused me to adjust my views somewhat. I tend to see things in black & white alot also- thank you for helping me see some of the gray. I really appreciate the fact that we've all been able to talk about the subject without the thread going up in flames etc. smile )


edit:
PS: I think Zsa Zsa's idea of opening a new savings acount your parents don't know about, and putting a little money in there every chance you get is a really good idea for your situation. Don't make it too sudden though, otherwise they may wonder why not as much money is going into the 1st account.  

[Onikara Nightshade]

Unfortunately in the world we live in today it seems like some of us have to hide who we really are to protect ourselves from harm. I live with my parents still and with them, it's their way or the highway. I do openly wear my penticle and have my bumper sticker on my car saying "Harm none, do what ye will" but they don't really know what they mean. Besides those two things, I am not open about it. I am a secretive, shy type anyway. Probably when I learn more about Wicca I will be more open about it, but right now I don't feel like I know enough yet. (Although I told mom about a money drawing idea I read about in a book I have. She needs a bit of help in that area since she needed surgery on her hands.)  

[Leavaros]

Obviously, I can't answer everyone's questions. I am truly sorry that I can't, but I'll try to get to as many as possible.

Wait, you're disappointed in me? For being judgmental? The last thing I intended to do was judge. In fact, my only purpose was to highlight the truth that no truth is extraneous. Ever. And that to even attempt to tiptoe the line between honesty and dishonesty is to be dishonest to oneself.

However, I will agree that sexuality and religion are two entirely different things. I would add, though, that religion, by its nature, is more important than integral sexuality. And if I were staking my soul on something, I would not begrudge my life in its pursuit.

Not to say, of course, that one should preach to the world one's own beliefs, or to prance around talking nonstop about magic. But to hide what one believes in, to not answer the questions you can answer, is to return the silence as no more and no less than too-full emptiness.

I know it's hard to listen to. It isn't so very easy to say, you know. But it must be said, and it should be heard. Ask yourself, what would I want someone to hide from me? Or would I want the truth, no matter how hard?

As earlier stated, I know my path. No black, no white, no gray. Only the knowledge that I must walk it, no matter the personal sacrifice.

Do you?
-LD  

[NolaIvory]

Leav, everyone knows their path in life. And everyone grows while following it daily. But that doesn't mean that everyone is as open as you are about your beliefs. What if it's no one else's business what your religion is? And, like Onikara Nightshade said, sometimes it is just too dangerous to hide who we "really are." Sure, everyone lets pieces show, but not the whole. No one can see the whole all the time. You learn about someone in pieces, and puzzle them together bit by bit.

The Gods do not need us to defend them. How do you think they would have survived this long?

And sometiems those of us who are born without Pagan parents (or even parents who are willing to accept that their way isn't the only way) must practice in the dead of night...maybe even outside in the cold of winter! I know I have. And I still do, even though I came out of the broom closet to my immediate family. But now I do it out of respect for them, and because I like the night, not because I wish to hide what I am. Sure, this coming full moon I opened it up to any of them (my family and CaptainWeed) who wish to come and watch, I will perform my ritual outside while they can watch in the warmth of the kitchen. But they do not have to watch, and can stop watching at any time. But I assure you that it will still take place at night.

But, all that said and done, brother...who are you to tell anyone how to walk their Path? You walk yours, and let me be the first one to say that you walk it well...better than any one of us ever could, really. But could you ever walk in ours? No. You haven't been in every situation we have. You don't have the same personality we do...And have you ever heard of the phrase that silence is sometimes golden?

Leav, I love you. And you know that. Please...do me a favor...(and I'm begging you here, brother) just...slow down a little for me. Please, Leav. Gods you have me worried so much sometimes.

Just slow down and think.  

[Little Wendy]

I have refrained from posting in this thread for so long, but damnit, I feel it needs to be said. Sometimes we Wiccans are too nice.
And if Leavaros is as as much a fan of honesty as he says, than he can tolerate this.

Leavaros, I am sick to death of your holier than thou attitude. You come across as a pompous a*****e sometimes. Yes, you are very intelligent in somethings, but you belittle people constantly, I am sure you are unaware of the way you come across.

I am often afraid of even posting in this guild because of what you are going to say. About how I am doing this wrong, and how I should be doing that this way, you way. And in this particular matter... honestly always vs privacy... I believe you are wrong. And I know I might get crucified for this, but sometimes I even think that a lie is acceptable for various different things in life. I think for this whole thread Zsa Zsa came off more honest than you because her reactions are more human. And being honest all the bloody time doesn't mean that you are either telling the truth or that you are more enlightened. It just makes you stand out for an a** kicking, or losing all of someone's respect. I do not respect you, Leavaros, other than you are a human being and deserve to live and explore. But it isn't fair that you are doing so in a way that curbs the pleasure of the experience for other people here.

You are 17, you don't know all the answers, we none of us know all the answers, but I feel you especially have a lot to learn. I also feel that this isn't a place I can learn, because people like you make it an unhealthy environment. I just joined this guild a month ago, and I've already decided to quit. I'm just so frustrated.

Now the moderators can edit this all they want.  

[dark_angel_32189]

Little Wendy

Now the moderators can edit this all they want.

I wouldn't even think of editing that post.