"Universal Laws"

[Brass Bell Doll]

Your post was easy to read and understand doistu.
3nodding

doistu

I'm sorry this may take a while. I mean, laws such as the ones discussed have been articulated by human beings in order to promote moral value and choice (I think) so should the very idea of them being universal not depend on the individual?

I feel this hinges on the premise that humans articulated it for an agenda. If this premise is flawed- for example, if humans articulated it because of observation or divine inspiration, then how could the proposed conclusion follow?  

[doistu]

Brass Bell Doll

Your post was easy to read and understand doistu.
3nodding

doistu

I'm sorry this may take a while. I mean, laws such as the ones discussed have been articulated by human beings in order to promote moral value and choice (I think) so should the very idea of them being universal not depend on the individual?

I feel this hinges on the premise that humans articulated it for an agenda. If this premise is flawed- for example, if humans articulated it because of observation or divine inspiration, then how could the proposed conclusion follow?

If an articulation does span from divine inspiration then that is still an individual perception of the universe until the articulation is spread and gains followers. In the case of Islam, Muslims trust the word of Muhammad to be an accurate representation of the motives of the word of Allah. Muslims, therefore, follow a shared perception of the world as followers of Islam.
At that point susceptibility to belief universal law is no longer dependant on the subjective perception of the individual but the written tenets of a chosen 'higher moral ground'.

I guess what I said might only be applicable to someone who, like myself, does not follow a religion or a religious path. I am only sure that I am an individual and that I exist enough to impact something on the world. So I want my impact to be a positive one that can make some people happier in their experience of the world.

I'm sorry as I feel I may have misinterpreted your question. If I have please ask again and I'll try to answer again smile  

[Brass Bell Doll]

doistu

If an articulation does span from divine inspiration then that is still an individual perception of the universe until the articulation is spread and gains followers.

I feel this would only be true in cases where it was an intrepretation of what was relayed, rather than a verbatim reproduction of what was given to them. Would you agree?

doistu

In the case of Islam, Muslims trust the word of Muhammad to be an accurate representation of the motives of the word of Allah. Muslims, therefore, follow a shared perception of the world as followers of Islam.

I feel that we have developed two subjects from one. The Law itself may be universal, whole and true- but how others view the law may be flawed, incomplete, accurate or anywhere in between.

doistu

At that point susceptibility to belief universal law is no longer dependant on the subjective perception of the individual but the written tenets of a chosen 'higher moral ground'.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't understand this part. Could you rephrase it?

doistu

I guess what I said might only be applicable to someone who, like myself, does not follow a religion or a religious path. I am only sure that I am an individual and that I exist enough to impact something on the world. So I want my impact to be a positive one that can make some people happier in their experience of the world.

I feel that people like you are not that different from those who follow a path. People can make mistakes, they can be misinformed by those who came before or may carry a personal bias that colors their view which could remove pieces of the truth of a universal law from their path.

doistu

I'm sorry as I feel I may have misinterpreted your question. If I have please ask again and I'll try to answer again smile

You're doing a fine job. wink  

[doistu]

Brass Bell Doll

I feel this would only be true in cases where it was an intrepretation of what was relayed, rather than a verbatim reproduction of what was given to them. Would you agree?

I do agree

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I feel that we have developed two subjects from one. The Law itself may be universal, whole and true- but how others view the law may be flawed, incomplete, accurate or anywhere in between.

I think we have. Sorry about that hehe. I agree with what you say here.

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I'm sorry, but I couldn't understand this part. Could you rephrase it?

Of course. Religious doctrine has its own moral code that it expects its followers to adhere to. So the moral code isn't an individual thing anymore because a group follows it. Though there is something to be said for individual interpretation of the codes (which is where this explanation falls through as interpretation will always vary).

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I feel that people like you are not that different from those who follow a path. People can make mistakes, they can be misinformed by those who came before or may carry a personal bias that colors their view which could remove pieces of the truth of a universal law from their path.

Exactly, very well put. That is the kind of thing I was referring to with regards to an individuals perception and experience of life.

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You're doing a fine job. wink

Thanks smile  

[Brass Bell Doll]

doistu

Brass Bell Doll

I feel this would only be true in cases where it was an intrepretation of what was relayed, rather than a verbatim reproduction of what was given to them. Would you agree?

I do agree

Would you consider it is fair to say that your exploration of those that which others say are Universal Laws have left you feeling that none were verbatim reproductions?

doistu

I think we have. Sorry about that hehe.

It's all part of the process. The day we can read another's thoughts is the day all the psychologists in the world put up their shingles.

doistu

Of course. Religious doctrine has its own moral code that it expects its followers to adhere to. So the moral code isn't an individual thing anymore because a group follows it. Though there is something to be said for individual interpretation of the codes (which is where this explanation falls through as interpretation will always vary).

That is an interesting perspective. Would you consider it fair to distinguish between individually developed codes and an "individual code" in the sense that even if it is followed by numerous people, the adoption of it is an individual process?

I'm not trying to over complicate things, but I feel the process a person goes through emotionally and mentally in becoming a moral person is often very complex- many times it is a complete reinvention of themselves, and rather than following by adopting a religion and then accepting the morals within it- people seem to develop the first stages of what they feel is moral and then convert to a religion that has enough in common with that to make sense.

It's a bit like having a few pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, and then searching the world over for the nearly completed puzzle that fits those pieces.

doistu

Exactly, very well put. That is the kind of thing I was referring to with regards to an individuals perception and experience of life.

Based on this, how would you feel if someone could articulate a Universal Law without bias?  

[doistu]

Brass Bell Doll

Would you consider it is fair to say that your exploration of those that which others say are Universal Laws have left you feeling that none were verbatim reproductions?

Yup smile Please forgive me. It's nearly 5 am here and I'm feeling everywhere. But yes. I feel no reproduction is verbatim. Not sure why, maybe I have a little distrust going on.

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It's all part of the process. The day we can read another's thoughts is the day all the psychologists in the world put up their shingles.

I actually wanna be a psychologist hehe.

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That is an interesting perspective. Would you consider it fair to distinguish between individually developed codes and an "individual code" in the sense that even if it is followed by numerous people, the adoption of it is an individual process?

Yes. Because whilst people follow the same doctrine they follow it in their own way, as only they can do. (I feel I may be contradicting myself but this conversation very much charts the development of my view, which is yet to be set solid).

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I'm not trying to over complicate things, but I feel the process a person goes through emotionally and mentally in becoming a moral person is often very complex- many times it is a complete reinvention of themselves, and rather than following by adopting a religion and then accepting the morals within it- people seem to develop the first stages of what they feel is moral and then convert to a religion that has enough in common with that to make sense.

I agree. As children it is assumed we develop morals regardless of teaching. Freud put forward the idea of an Id, Ego and Super Ego. Kohlberg and Piaget also put forward ideas on moral developement. The development of morals is an entirely individual thing because it is shaped by everything experienced by the individual. And, obviously, not everyone has and interprets the same experiences.

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Based on this, how would you feel if someone could articulate a Universal Law without bias?

Astonished and grateful. Because without bias the person would have risen above their human condition.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

doistu

Yup smile Please forgive me.

Nothing to forgive. I just thought it would be better to ask than assume.

doistu

It's nearly 5 am here and I'm feeling everywhere. But yes.

Sleep well!

doistu

I feel no reproduction is verbatim. Not sure why, maybe I have a little distrust going on.

I feel it could be a combination of things. It may be that what you have seen is not a verbatim reproduction- it could have been marred by bias in recording, translation into the language you read or even having changed over time- some of it could have been turned to dust under the ages or the social interaction that helped it make sense doesn't exist in your here and now.

Distrust could play a role in it as well. If we feel it isn't possible to record a Universal truth for whatever reason- we may not recognize it when we see it because of that assumption.

It could also be due to a lack of exposure- The Universal Law may not have crossed your path yet.
Can you think of any reasons I have missed?

doistu

I actually wanna be a psychologist hehe.

Really? What field?

doistu

Yes. Because whilst people follow the same doctrine they follow it in their own way, as only they can do. (I feel I may be contradicting myself but this conversation very much charts the development of my view, which is yet to be set solid).

I don't see it as contradiction. I think adaptation fits better.
Which seems to be a good word to also describe how people grow with a moral system. Some of it is them adapting to it and some of it adapts to them- especially in the case of established religions. Would you agree?

doistu

I agree. As children it is assumed we develop morals regardless of teaching. Freud put forward the idea of an Id, Ego and Super Ego. Kohlberg and Piaget also put forward ideas on moral developement. The development of morals is an entirely individual thing because it is shaped by everything experienced by the individual. And, obviously, not everyone has and interprets the same experiences.

It is also shaped by our need to be individuals. If we identify a moral structure with our parents or guardians, and then seek to individuate ourselves from them- we may opt to take different morals than what we were raised with to further that distinction. Teen Rebellion as it were- though I feel this starts earlier than the teens.

doistu

Astonished and grateful. Because without bias the person would have risen above their human condition.

Do you feel it is possible they could have preserved something which was given to them in a state of perfection.  

[doistu]

Brass Bell Doll

It could also be due to a lack of exposure- The Universal Law may not have crossed your path yet.
Can you think of any reasons I have missed?

I think you pretty much summed it up to be honest smile

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Really? What field?

Clinical or educational but I'm keeping my options open as I have to get a very good degree.

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I don't see it as contradiction. I think adaptation fits better.
Which seems to be a good word to also describe how people grow with a moral system. Some of it is them adapting to it and some of it adapts to them- especially in the case of established religions. Would you agree?

I would. Our global schemas change and are adapted everyday to deal with an influx of new info. Like when our mother points out a great dane and tells us its a dog we initially see only great danes as dogs. But when we're shown a terrier we learn that it is also a dog. Our mental plan of the world has to change to accept that info. (Hope that was a good analogy).

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It is also shaped by our need to be individuals. If we identify a moral structure with our parents or guardians, and then seek to individuate ourselves from them- we may opt to take different morals than what we were raised with to further that distinction. Teen Rebellion as it were- though I feel this starts earlier than the teens.

Ah that's very true. I know that I was brought up with morals that I've disregarded or altered. Then again some morals are just social norms. Either implicit or explicit you still have to follow them for fear of 'not fitting in'. There's always an element of social and group inclusion.

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Do you feel it is possible they could have preserved something which was given to them in a state of perfection.

Not really. It's not a bad thing at all. It just is what it is but the only way it can be delivered with perfection is for the source of the information to implant the idea into the minds of 'followers' (for lack of a better word) and make sure it isn't open to interpretation. I think morals are too complex for that. They aren't like law e.g. You cannot kill. Morals only enter in when the command is questioned e.g. Why can't I kill?  

[Brass Bell Doll]

doistu

Clinical or educational but I'm keeping my options open as I have to get a very good degree.

Have you had a chance to look into the differences between Waldorf and Montessori systems?

doistu

I would. Our global schemas change and are adapted everyday to deal with an influx of new info. Like when our mother points out a great dane and tells us its a dog we initially see only great danes as dogs. But when we're shown a terrier we learn that it is also a dog. Our mental plan of the world has to change to accept that info. (Hope that was a good analogy).

I like it as an analogy. Some of those Schema also stick. To this day my brother calls all forms of lettuce "salad" even though he knows there are salads that aren't made with leafy greens and that a head of iceburg lettuce isn't a salad in and of itself.

doistu

Ah that's very true. I know that I was brought up with morals that I've disregarded or altered. Then again some morals are just social norms. Either implicit or explicit you still have to follow them for fear of 'not fitting in'. There's always an element of social and group inclusion.

Would you be willing to share some personal examples?

doistu

Not really. It's not a bad thing at all. It just is what it is but the only way it can be delivered with perfection is for the source of the information to implant the idea into the minds of 'followers' (for lack of a better word) and make sure it isn't open to interpretation.

I feel like we are making two subjects from one on this matter. I think when we start talking about interpretation we're talking about how humanity relates to the Law and not the Law itself. Does that make sense?  

[doistu]

Brass Bell Doll

Have you had a chance to look into the differences between Waldorf and Montessori systems?

I actually attended a Montessori but I've never heard of a Waldorf. A quick wiki search provided some interesting reading so I'll do a little more thorough research. Have you ever come across Unschooling?

doistu

Ah that's very true. I know that I was brought up with morals that I've disregarded or altered. Then again some morals are just social norms. Either implicit or explicit you still have to follow them for fear of 'not fitting in'. There's always an element of social and group inclusion.

Would you be willing to share some personal examples?

An example of one I disregarded was that my mother felt spending the night with boys was wrong until I turned 18. Not just staying at my boyfriends but also parties where there were boys. Camping was a big thing with my friends and I could never go. I was told that being not spending the night in the presence of boys would give me a respect for myself.
I think that's bull to be honest. Especially as the same rules didn't apply to my younger sister.
But I kept up the pretence of understanding so that I could stay, safely, within the family (social) circle.

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I feel like we are making two subjects from one on this matter. I think when we start talking about interpretation we're talking about how humanity relates to the Law and not the Law itself. Does that make sense?

That does make sense. My apologies hehe!  

[Brass Bell Doll]

doistu

I actually attended a Montessori but I've never heard of a Waldorf. A quick wiki search provided some interesting reading so I'll do a little more thorough research. Have you ever come across Unschooling?

I am familiar with unschooling, but I feel that it should be used by parents in support of other forms of education to best represent the diverse experiences we face in life.

doistu

An example of one I disregarded was that my mother felt spending the night with boys was wrong until I turned 18. Not just staying at my boyfriends but also parties where there were boys. Camping was a big thing with my friends and I could never go. I was told that being not spending the night in the presence of boys would give me a respect for myself.
I think that's bull to be honest. Especially as the same rules didn't apply to my younger sister.
But I kept up the pretence of understanding so that I could stay, safely, within the family (social) circle.

Thank you for the example.

doistu

That does make sense. My apologies hehe!

No problem. Does this effect your earlier answer as to if it is possible for a Universal Law to be recorded verbatim?  

[doistu]

Brass Bell Doll

I am familiar with unschooling, but I feel that it should be used by parents in support of other forms of education to best represent the diverse experiences we face in life.

I agree. And I believe that in it's rawest (even a word?) form it would be counter-productive.

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No problem. Does this effect your earlier answer as to if it is possible for a Universal Law to be recorded verbatim?

I suppose it does. It could be possible but so much is likely to go wrong in the recording and re-telling.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

doistu

I agree. And I believe that in it's rawest (even a word?) form it would be counter-productive.

I agree with this as well. My main concern is that social expectations create pressures for education relative to development. Because of this I feel it is possible for children to go through some unrefined forms of unschooling without picking up the skills that they will be expected to have- placing them at an intellectual disadvantage which will translate into a social disadvantage.

doistu

I suppose it does. It could be possible but so much is likely to go wrong in the recording and re-telling.

I think I am less concerned with the recording, and more concerned with the interpretation, as we have previously discussed. I feel that if a deity wanted to communicate a universal law in perfection they could- and that they could also do so in a way that a human would be able to maintain in their recording of it. After that, it gets a bit sticky- because without similar divine influence, there is no way to be sure the interpretation is perfect.

Some Christians deal with this by claiming the Bible can only be understood when read with the aid of the Holy Spirit.  

[doistu]

Brass Bell Doll

I agree with this as well. My main concern is that social expectations create pressures for education relative to development. Because of this I feel it is possible for children to go through some unrefined forms of unschooling without picking up the skills that they will be expected to have- placing them at an intellectual disadvantage which will translate into a social disadvantage.

Totally agree. The current Market approach to education sets a standard that everyone has to meet in order to have any hope in the job market.

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Some Christians deal with this by claiming the Bible can only be understood when read with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Ah! I'm understanding this more now. Thanks for the example. Yes, in that case. It does seem that the interpretation is the most important thing really.