How many pagans actually practice "magick"

[Ishtar Shakti]

TeaDidikai

Ishsha

You still interpret what your position is

No, I really don't. I received training from a young age that ensured my personal interpretations are not now and never were the foundation of my understanding. For ******** sake, stop projecting your expectations onto my culture and traditions. It's beginning to border on racism.

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Your position I would assume would be some sort of subservience to whom ever assigned you your position.

You assume wrong. rolleyes

Your privilege and non-existent understanding of what my role within my tradition is leading you to say some really ignorant s**t.

Example:
So you don't interpret things. You must be an automaton. Thats good to know ^_^ You have no interpretations of the any of the words of what you are thus you must be nothing as they lack all context or definition.

It is a matter of cultural interpretation of language Right?

I find this statement to be amusing - "I'm not projecting my interpretations... your projecting your interpretations of what I am saying on what I am saying." IE... what I am saying is true and what you are saying is projection. Any assertion I say is projection rolleyes based on Nothing right?

I would say we both are projecting our definitions on the other person through lack of understanding the internal context and framework of each others words. Unless of course your using the same definitions as me.
Though... perhaps I should state that projection and internalization are a somewhat constant process. hmmm I need to remember that. Though I still don't think projection is the right word. I'm guessing I know the frame work that your using it in... but I am not really making you a representation of my emotional issues.
I think you are saying that I am defining your words within the multiple frameworks that I use - this is what I think you are using the word to mean.
Am I right?
I am just going to have to get the definitions from you at one point or another though most of it I think I can guess from what your saying. Though there are multiple interpretations that I know for alot of the things that have been said thus far. I could list all of the ones I know of but it would be Easier if you would tell me which ones you use.

You internalize my words and alter them in that internalization and your processing them and spitting them out as something else. Whether that something is identical to what I am saying can never be known.
It can be as similar to what I am saying as you can manage. But then you don't seem to believe you can Know things and know them completely and seem to believe in absolutes and that you don't have bias. Seem now. Its a very important word. I will add it to any guess I make about you as you seem to think I actually have opinions rather then some very well developed Idea's. Thus it does make sense that you would believe that you can learn something without interpreting it at all. It is a part of conditioning... and is quite common that something is so ingrained that any alteration to that concept in fairly impossible. Beliefs are very powerful things so much so that the believer in order to hold the belief system together is able to blot out anything which could possibly go against it or threaten the blindness which they have towards it.

Of course... not having this can lead to instability... so not saying its a bad thing just that its a thing that seems to be able to be observed. You either have beliefs however small they are or you have no framework with which to try to piece the world together.

I will just have to work within the context of your definitions from now on even though from my framework though I think many of the things you've said have been pretty pretentious .

Whether what I am saying is in anyway accurate to my interpretation of what your saying has never been assumed. I have nothing else to build a foundation for my precepts though then what you've said and the possible ideological frameworks and contextualization's that I have come in contact with. I could build an entire different frame work based on your belief systems and definitions but you don't seem to believe in definitions or providing them

This produces an issue. You also seem to think that culture is a one way street and that somehow my culture makes me feel entitled and are also saying some ignorant s**t based off my mental framework. What I would define as entitled seems to be different then what you define is entitled. You seem to be entitled to think your definitions are universal... that your beliefs are absolute... that you can insult people that you just met... and that your experiences and reasons are somehow better then mine. That I don't have context for my beliefs and that whatever context I am trying to provide is me projecting my frame work On yours rather then me trying to find some sort of commonality between the two of us.

Of course a person is going to be ignorant if you don't provide context so eh. I am probably ignorant in that regard yet what I am saying still has basis and thus what I am saying isn't ignorant because it is well supported. I don't Know your beliefs so I'm not addressing you within that framework but that doesn't mean the things I say aren't based on something.

Oh I also find it funny... before when you said that

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Welcome to The Rehab Center.
Your beliefs are not sacred cows.

You seem to reject other peoples beliefs when they don't fit into your schema of how the world should be yet you seem to attack when your beliefs are in question. Your culture and tradition is a system of beliefs that have been built over time.

I'm talking mostly from a psychological frame work. This doesn't have much to do with my personal beliefs. I feel fairly detached from this view point as its mostly scientific fact that has been proven through numerous studies. Though I would dispute the word Fact its still well tested and tride and true that this is what people do.

I usually seek some sort of tolerance of beliefs and a desire to understand them. If I didn't Have this desire if I wasn't being Respectful of your beliefs I wouldn't ask you Questions.

If you want to be Civil I will be CIVIL otherwise I will treat you much as you are treating me. If you want to talk about RACISM what Race do you think I Am and why the hell would it MATTER. Even bringing it into the equation seems like a pretty entitled RACIST REMARK

If you want to talk about ETHNOCENTRISM you seem to be doing a wonderful job of advocating that. If you want a full list of My Cultural Practices and BELIEFS I would be more then happy to share them with you. We could talk about beliefs and whether or not we share any and what they are without being attacked. What a wonderful place That would be!

I mean... if its a ******** guild about paganism and religion it seems pretty ******** wacked out if it doesn't allow people to talk about there beliefs and cultural practices. Ms. lets attack everything I say.

Go advocate beliefs as golden cows or advocate beliefs as something to be attacked. Go ******** contradict yourself again.  

[Bastemhet]

Ishtar Shakti

TeaDidikai

Ishsha

You still interpret what your position is

No, I really don't. I received training from a young age that ensured my personal interpretations are not now and never were the foundation of my understanding. For ******** sake, stop projecting your expectations onto my culture and traditions. It's beginning to border on racism.

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Your position I would assume would be some sort of subservience to whom ever assigned you your position.

You assume wrong. rolleyes

Your privilege and non-existent understanding of what my role within my tradition is leading you to say some really ignorant s**t.

Example:
So you don't interpret things. You must be an automaton. Thats good to know ^_^ You have no interpretations of the any of the words of what you are thus you must be nothing as they lack all context or definition.

...
I would say we both are projecting our definitions on the other person through lack of understanding the internal context and framework of each others words. Unless of course your using the same definitions as me.

If you really wanted to know what her position was, couldn't you just ask her to divulge a little more information, if it's within her right to do, rather than assume anything about her and proceed to then psychoanalyze the reasons that you have just made up?

Also, I don't know how she could've used the same definition of magic as you if you didn't provide one in the first place. You are operating on a lot of givens. These givens are a result of your culture which may or may not be the same culture as Tea's. This is why she is saying you are bordering on racism- because you assume people are going to have the same circumstances, often privileged ones, as you, even if this is not the case.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

I was and then she kind of said what I said was on the verge of racism and keeps accusing me of things. It seems rude
I asked her what she considered appropriate and what she considered her position to be. I Asked her... then based on what she said I made an assumption this in no way indicates that I am telling her what her position is.

It seems hypocritical to accuse my of something she herself is doing. That is my reason for "psycho analyzing" her response. I don't really think of it as psycho analysis but eh.  

[Bastemhet]

Ishtar Shakti

I was and then she kind of said what I said was on the verge of racism and keeps accusing me of things. It seems rude
I asked her what she considered appropriate and what she considered her position to be. I Asked her... then based on what she said I made an assumption this in no way indicates that I am telling her what her position is.

It seems hypocritical to accuse my of something she herself is doing. That is my reason for "psycho analyzing" her response. I don't really think of it as psycho analysis but eh.

Why is it rude of someone to challenge your statements?

When you assume something about someone you are in essence telling them what they are without allowing them to do it for themselves. You are thus negating her autonomy. Doesn't that seem unfair?

I don't understand what you're referring to when you say "It seems hypocritical to accuse my of something she herself is doing."  

[maenad nuri]

Ishtar Shakti

I was and then she kind of said what I said was on the verge of racism and keeps accusing me of things. It seems rude

You may have missed this. You should follow it:

Annoucement Topic

If someone calls you on your privilege, be it male, cis, hetero, race, class, able, really what have you in the great scheme of the kyriarchy, your job is to do a few things:
A. Shut up and step back, breath.
B. Familarize with the concept of privilege. If you don't have that familiarity, you can do so Here
C. Listen to the other side. Don't just hear, but actually listen.
D. Then you can respond.

 

[Recursive Paradox]

Ishtar Shakti

Recursive Paradox

Channeling may or may not qualify as magic (not magick or the less known maedjeck) but that is the primary thing I use.

Usually with Essences but occasionally with Aspects.

What would you define as Essences and what would you define as Aspects.
There are also two different uses for the word channeling... are you talking about a specific entity/being or energy?

Etheristic Channeling is energy only.

Aspects are the primary spiritual reflections for a given force, type of matter, organization of thing or concept. Essences are smaller spiritual reflections for a given Aspect's material reflection or examples of that stuff.

E.g. Human spiritual reflections are Human Essences. There is an Aspect of Humanity.

One can draw energy from an Aspect (which is risky and difficult) either through barter or partnership (if they're sentient and actually give a s**t about your existence) or through simple drawing (if they're not sentient or if you're stupid & unethical enough to tap into the energies of a sentient and intensely powerful being without its consent.)

One can draw energy from or work with an Essence (where it uses it's own or other energies to aid you) through barter or partnership (much easier to do this with Essences than Aspects), or through drawing directly (provided they aren't sentient, doing so to a sentient one is tantamount to rape and you will deserve the reaction you get, no matter how violent or damaging. And it often is. Keep in mind too, Essences often have friends.)

One can also draw from the general energy of the universe (the full Ether) but this is risky since you never know where it's coming from. Disbalancing things is a quick way to get people killed. And a quick way to get angry things and people coming down on you due to the first.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Ishtar Shakti

I was and then she kind of said what I said was on the verge of racism and keeps accusing me of things.

You were being racist. Like, distinctly racist.  

[TeaDidikai]

Ishsha

So you don't interpret things...

I'll leave this part of the post to the guild Crew to sort out, since I won't indulge your trolling.

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It is a matter of cultural interpretation of language Right?

No. It's a matter of training when contrasted with denotation for the English you are using.

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I find this statement to be amusing - "I'm not projecting my interpretations... your projecting your interpretations of what I am saying on what I am saying." IE... what I am saying is true and what you are saying is projection. Any assertion I say is projection rolleyes based on Nothing right?

This isn't what is being said.

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I would say we both are projecting our definitions on the other person through lack of understanding the internal context and framework of each others words. Unless of course your using the same definitions as me.

I most certainly not using your definitions. Nor my own. I'm using authoritative denotation of the words.

See, this is why you are having problems. You think everyone else makes up their own meanings for words the way you do. Well, I for one don't.

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I think you are saying that I am defining your words within the multiple frameworks that I use - this is what I think you are using the word to mean.
Am I right?

Nope. Because you keep relying on Relativism, a logically inconsistent position.

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I am just going to have to get the definitions from you at one point or another though most of it I think I can guess from what your saying.

How about you just buy a dictionary.
Cut out the middle man.

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You internalize my words and alter them in that internalization and your processing them and spitting them out as something else. Whether that something is identical to what I am saying can never be known.
It can be as similar to what I am saying as you can manage. But then you don't seem to believe you can Know things and know them completely and seem to believe in absolutes and that you don't have bias.

I was going to bother to explain how wrong your position is, given that I have repeatedly and consistently argued that people can hold knowledge.

But somewhere between your racism and your fallacies, I lost my desire to educate you.

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Of course... not having this can lead to instability... so not saying its a bad thing just that its a thing that seems to be able to be observed. You either have beliefs however small they are or you have no framework with which to try to piece the world together.

Fallacy for the day: False Dichotomy.

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I could build an entire different frame work based on your belief systems and definitions but you don't seem to believe in definitions or providing them

If you really think that repeatedly using Weasel Words will actually improve your position, you're incorrect.

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This produces an issue. You also seem to think that culture is a one way street and that somehow my culture makes me feel entitled and are also saying some ignorant s**t based off my mental framework. What I would define as entitled seems to be different then what you define is entitled. You seem to be entitled to think your definitions are universal...

Here's the problem with this... not only are you relying on your privilege throughout this thread, you're asserting that I am resting on personal authority. This is why I have repeatedly noted your projection. I don't make up the meanings of words. I rely on authorities within the English language and their denotation.

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that you can insult people that you just met...

Am I capable of insulting people I just met? Of course. Do I? Not without cause.

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That I don't have context for my beliefs and that whatever context I am trying to provide is me projecting my frame work On yours rather then me trying to find some sort of commonality between the two of us.

I have little to no meaningful commonality with you.

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You seem to reject other peoples beliefs when they don't fit into your schema of how the world should be yet you seem to attack when your beliefs are in question. Your culture and tradition is a system of beliefs that have been built over time.

I react to racism when a person outside of my culture degrades me based on their sense of superiority.

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I usually seek some sort of tolerance of beliefs and a desire to understand them. If I didn't Have this desire if I wasn't being Respectful of your beliefs I wouldn't ask you Questions.

Unless of course you're engaging in a handful of different kinds of trolling.

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If you want to be Civil I will be CIVIL otherwise I will treat you much as you are treating me.

Here's the problem. I wasn't the one who resorted to flaming someone for them merely pointing out how logically invalid their position is. Nor was I the one who relied on racism to launch further personal attacks.

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If you want to talk about RACISM what Race do you think I Am and why the hell would it MATTER. Even bringing it into the equation seems like a pretty entitled RACIST REMARK

Actually, it doesn't matter. See, racism isn't limited to one group verses another. And failing to follow the guild guidelines about this issue, while trying to accuse the person who brought it to the attention of the guild is another fallacy- Ad hominem tu quoque.

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I mean... if its a ******** guild about paganism and religion it seems pretty ******** wacked out if it doesn't allow people to talk about there beliefs and cultural practices. Ms. lets attack everything I say.

Name calling is actually against the Terms of Service. I'll leave this to the Guild Moderators to deal with as well.

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Go advocate beliefs as golden cows or advocate beliefs as something to be attacked. Go ******** contradict yourself again.

Logical Fallacy: Proof by Assertion.

I contest flawed positions. Nothing more, nothing less ahmaki.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

whiporwill-o

... if you had simply said 'magic' i doubt many here would presume you meant stage magic unless so specified.

Yeah, most of us are pretty good at reading comprehension. confused

There's no sensible reason to spell magic as "magick" in order to differentiate between stage magic and "real" magic. Context does that pretty damn well for a lot of words, all the time, every day.

Well, ********. I still think it's absurd.

Illusion and religion don't have a restraining order against each other.

I mean... hell, I have a shameless fangirl crush on Heron of Alexandria- and I'm not a Hellenic or Kemetic pagan.

... or a pagan at all. ninja

 

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

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So you don't interpret things. You must be an automaton. Thats good to know ^_^

Stop.
Stop baiting people. Stop trying to troll. It is not appreciated, welcomed, or tolerated extensively here.
Tea did NOT say she doesn't interpret things. I can not understand how someone who speaks at length has such trouble with comprehension.  

[CuAnnan]

Violet Song jat Shariff

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So you don't interpret things. You must be an automaton. Thats good to know ^_^

Stop.
Stop baiting people. Stop trying to troll. It is not appreciated, welcomed, or tolerated extensively here.
Tea did NOT say she doesn't interpret things. I can not understand how someone who speaks at length has such trouble with comprehension.

I call her "Leabhair go leor le faic a rá".
Or speaks much with little to say.  

[whiporwill-o]

CuAnnan

Violet Song jat Shariff

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So you don't interpret things. You must be an automaton. Thats good to know ^_^

Stop.
Stop baiting people. Stop trying to troll. It is not appreciated, welcomed, or tolerated extensively here.
Tea did NOT say she doesn't interpret things. I can not understand how someone who speaks at length has such trouble with comprehension.

I call her "Leabhair go leor le faic a rá".
Or speaks much with little to say.

my grandmother always says "the emptiest vessel makes the loudest noise", not really relevant, but i always liked that saying.  

[CuAnnan]

To answer the initial question.
I don't practice anything that I would call magic.
Reality has rules. The more you know them the better you are at implementing them.  

[patch99329]

Am I missing the part where this became racism, and not just rude generalisations?
I'm starting to take issue with the way racism sometimes just seems to be used as a buzzword. I don't honestly believe that many people that get called on being racist, are racist at all, and if they are, they aren't demonstrating it within the conversation at least.

She made assumptions due to her lack of information. She shouldn't have done that, it causes problems...but was it because she was racist? I doubt it.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Ishtar Shakti

So is it more a hatred of the label then the practice?

Both.
I hate the label for I feel it misleading.
I hate the practice for it smacks to me of messing with matters one has a poor grasp of the consequences of. That is more of a knee jerk, but I have found it a safe default.