Does anyone follow gods considered evil?

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

Saying "I believe" is not a fallacy, it's stating that I don't believe in something. You can't falsify or mislead a belief. If I stated that evil doesn't exist then I would have said "evil doesn't exist and is nothing more than a creation of man to explain the unknown" but I didn't. I simply stated I (me, myself, I don't speak for anyone else) don't believe in it.

I haven't come across Daley, but here's a snip from a religious group that is based on the cult of Tiamat as well as a few other sects (came across the group in an unrelated search)...

"Tiamat, Mother of Chaos, together with Absu, Father of the Depths,
ruled over the eternal darkness and the perfect silence.
Tiamat and Absu together formed the chaotic primordial ocean.
Absu's sweet water blended with Tiamat's salt water"

From the Enuma Elish (epic from the 7 tablets of creation)
"When in the height heaven was not named,
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
Their waters were mingled together,"

The group first mentioned seem to say Ummu-Hubur is a priestess of Tiamat and the Enuma Elish depicts Ummu-Hubur as Tiamat (once she was wrathful from loss of Apsu). Aside from that differential the two stories are parallel. And as posted before, The same epic calls Tiamat a dragon, so not going to repost that part.

Further more, wasn't the ocean seen as chaos or "evil" for it being unknown with many monsters? They seem to press that point a lot on specials like National Geographic when they discuss different cultures. Well revise, it was oceans, deserts, most wild uninhabited. I know I saw this somewhere other than Nat Geo, but that's the one that comes to mind at the moment.

Unless you want to get into the astrological debate on whether Tiamat is not a deity turned into the Earth&Sky, but a planet that was destroyed when another planet, Marduk, collided with it and subsequently created our solar system (in that text Marduk replaces the name of Nibiru or Planet X).  

[Fiddlers Green]

Ahriman would largely be considered Evil.
I give just as much respect and gratitude to him/her/it as I do Anhur.  

[Nattfodd]

By some statements in the Book of the Law, Horus could be considered a pretty evil character.

Also, I'm speaking purely from ignorance on this, but isn't Tiamat supposed to be destroyed in order to create the world? How does one worship a dead... deity-thing?  

[Bastemhet]

Stripperish Coyote

Like the Eris of Discordianism.
Are there any other gods(desses) that were bad guys(girls) per-say in their original mythos but are now revered?
If so what do the people who still find said deities to be evil think?
(Forgive me for such a newbie question sweatdrop )

This is a really good question because it has made me think a little more about a goddess that is dear to me. Her name is Sekhmet, and she was an Eye of Ra, which means she was one of the ones he would send to mete out justice. I think you might be familiar with the story of how she was sent to kill some people who were plotting against Ra, but once she slaughtered them and drank their blood, her thirst was not sated, and she then went on a killing rampage until someone had the idea to put pomegranate juice in beer which she mistook for blood. Once she slated her thirst on the beer she calmed down and awoke as Het-Hert.

Now, just from that description alone, which she is best known by, you might think she is evil. Actually, from an ancient Egyptian perspective, Good and Evil was not as much a concern as was the upholding of Ma'at, which one might translate as justice, balance, etc. They acknowledged that there are things which build, and things which destroy, and that our duty is to uphold the balance that is precarious at best. Every passing day the universe was in danger of being unraveled, and some of the gods (of which there were many) combated this imbalance daily.

Yes, she does have a destructive nature, but I don't think that one action really defines her, even if that is one of the only stories we might know about her. She meted out justice, and ended up going overboard. That is passion, and all humans, even gods, can be prone to it. I don't think it's up to humanity to forgive her. But I accept her as she is. You might be interested to know that she was also a goddess of healing and medicine, who is also the one who sends out the very plagues that the Egyptians supplicated to her to remove. I can't really fathom what they might have thought at the time...maybe a mixture of awe, reverence, anger, frustration, helplessness. But there it is. I can't say why because I'm not her. I can ask but might not ever know. I'm fine with that.  

[Deoridhe]

I don't consider any of my gods evil, but then I wouldn't, being aligned with them. I'm sure the Jotun's have a different point of view, and Surt certainly seems pissed off at them.

One of the artifacts of current understandings of religion is a belief that every creature mentioned in a myth is a deity. I blame the Greeks.... because it's funny and Nuri will glare at me, which is also funny.

The Aesir and some of the Vanir were worshiped by the Ancestors (Ancestors in a general, yet culturally specific manner), but most of the Ancestors were more concerned with the landvaettir and their ancestors (esp. the Disir) and the Einharjar (who really are kind of special ancestors), from what we can tell anthropologically.

And then there were the bigger things, like Sunna and Mani and the Norns, who were different and did not live in Asgardhr like the gods did. And there's Ran, who was appeased, not worshiped, and no doubt other figures like her that we have lost to a sea of time even more hungry than her sea. I would places Fenris among these, as one of the dangerous, primal forces which has no real care for man except as toy, dinner, or ant to toy with, crush, or ignore.

The modern world has humanity set up as central. The religion I am a part of has humanity set up as a small piece of a much larger picture.

In many ways, it is a matter of focus.  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

Nattfodd

Also, I'm speaking purely from ignorance on this, but isn't Tiamat supposed to be destroyed in order to create the world? How does one worship a dead... deity-thing?

This speech from Kingu (near the end of the creation story just before Marduk killed)
"I, Kingu, have seen my own death in the Tablets of Destiny,
but I have also seen my own resurrection.
For what more is death to us that are of Chaos than a short rest?
We are the first, and we shall be the last!
We, who have never lived, can never die!
Spill my blood, O you cowardly Marduk,
for the very blood that runs through my veins shall one day defeat you,
for my hate is eternal, just like my lust for revenge!
Enjoy, O you filthy rebel god, your short victory,
for the punishment for your crime is horrible and eternal!"

At the end of the epic story also states
"Among the chosen, who are guided by the Spirit of Chaotic Blood,
there are those who are blessed with the powers of the ancient Chaos Gods.
These chosen ones, who serve the wrath of the 'dead' gods,
are the ones who shall open the locked gates from the inside
and let in those who await on the outside of the cosmic barriers.

The creation of Marduk is nothing but a sinking island,
surrounded by an eternal storming sea of Chaos,
the sea of Chaos that is the blood of the 'dead' Dragon.
Outside of the walls of creation, The Eleven Avengers of Chaos await.
The Eleven and their legions wait for the gates to be opened,
so that they can re-establish the Chaos that once ruled.

When the Gods of Vengeance, the Wrathful Warriors of Chaos,
have torn asunder the b*****d gods,
When the Wrath of the Dragon of Chaos
has destroyed the rebellious gods and their filthy creation,
Ama-Ushumgal-Sumun Tiamat shall awaken from the slumber of death,
And the primeval darkness and roaring silence
shall then dissolve and cleanse all."

(which is the essence of our path, chaos destroys so life can be created then the cycle begins again. and yes I do look forward to the time of cleansing when the cycle will begin again, I am not saying that I or any followers will be absolved from death or destruction)  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

Deoridhe

I don't consider any of my gods evil, but then I wouldn't, being aligned with them. I'm sure the Jotun's have a different point of view, and Surt certainly seems pissed off at them.

One of the artifacts of current understandings of religion is a belief that every creature mentioned in a myth is a deity. I blame the Greeks.... because it's funny and Nuri will glare at me, which is also funny.

The Aesir and some of the Vanir were worshiped by the Ancestors (Ancestors in a general, yet culturally specific manner), but most of the Ancestors were more concerned with the landvaettir and their ancestors (esp. the Disir) and the Einharjar (who really are kind of special ancestors), from what we can tell anthropologically.

And then there were the bigger things, like Sunna and Mani and the Norns, who were different and did not live in Asgardhr like the gods did. And there's Ran, who was appeased, not worshiped, and no doubt other figures like her that we have lost to a sea of time even more hungry than her sea. I would places Fenris among these, as one of the dangerous, primal forces which has no real care for man except as toy, dinner, or ant to toy with, crush, or ignore.

The modern world has humanity set up as central. The religion I am a part of has humanity set up as a small piece of a much larger picture.

In many ways, it is a matter of focus.

Your post reminded me of a special on Eden I saw.... They mentioned that a conquering culture would use the deities of the existing culture in the area as demons in their religion as a way to control the masses and destroy their old ways. In a way many of the ancient cultures' deities could be considered evil to the modern religions.  

[Deoridhe]

Kashaku-Tatsu

Your post reminded me of a special on Eden I saw.... They mentioned that a conquering culture would use the deities of the existing culture in the area as demons in their religion as a way to control the masses and destroy their old ways. In a way many of the ancient cultures' deities could be considered evil to the modern religions.

My modern religion worships the deities of the ancient cultures', though - or, at least, two of them.  

[Nines19]

Kashaku-Tatsu

Your post reminded me of a special on Eden I saw.... They mentioned that a conquering culture would use the deities of the existing culture in the area as demons in their religion as a way to control the masses and destroy their old ways. In a way many of the ancient cultures' deities could be considered evil to the modern religions.

I don't know if that's entirely correct. I mean, not all religions even have demons or "bad guys".
In all honesty, sounds like the kind of stuff SRW would spew. In fact, I think she did... Yup, pages 49-50 of "To Ride a Silver Broomstick".

Though it does remind me of an interesting concept I heard once - others might vouch for the veracity (or not) of this - that Egyptians explained other cultures' goddesses by making them additional wives of Set.  

[Nattfodd]

Kashaku-Tatsu

Nattfodd

Also, I'm speaking purely from ignorance on this, but isn't Tiamat supposed to be destroyed in order to create the world? How does one worship a dead... deity-thing?

This speech from Kingu (near the end of the creation story just before Marduk killed)
"I, Kingu, have seen my own death in the Tablets of Destiny,
but I have also seen my own resurrection.
For what more is death to us that are of Chaos than a short rest?
We are the first, and we shall be the last!
We, who have never lived, can never die!
Spill my blood, O you cowardly Marduk,
for the very blood that runs through my veins shall one day defeat you,
for my hate is eternal, just like my lust for revenge!
Enjoy, O you filthy rebel god, your short victory,
for the punishment for your crime is horrible and eternal!"

At the end of the epic story also states
"Among the chosen, who are guided by the Spirit of Chaotic Blood,
there are those who are blessed with the powers of the ancient Chaos Gods.
These chosen ones, who serve the wrath of the 'dead' gods,
are the ones who shall open the locked gates from the inside
and let in those who await on the outside of the cosmic barriers.

The creation of Marduk is nothing but a sinking island,
surrounded by an eternal storming sea of Chaos,
the sea of Chaos that is the blood of the 'dead' Dragon.
Outside of the walls of creation, The Eleven Avengers of Chaos await.
The Eleven and their legions wait for the gates to be opened,
so that they can re-establish the Chaos that once ruled.

When the Gods of Vengeance, the Wrathful Warriors of Chaos,
have torn asunder the b*****d gods,
When the Wrath of the Dragon of Chaos
has destroyed the rebellious gods and their filthy creation,
Ama-Ushumgal-Sumun Tiamat shall awaken from the slumber of death,
And the primeval darkness and roaring silence
shall then dissolve and cleanse all."

(which is the essence of our path, chaos destroys so life can be created then the cycle begins again. and yes I do look forward to the time of cleansing when the cycle will begin again, I am not saying that I or any followers will be absolved from death or destruction)

Source text? Translation information?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Nines19

Though it does remind me of an interesting concept I heard once - others might vouch for the veracity (or not) of this - that Egyptians explained other cultures' goddesses by making them additional wives of Set.

I've heard something like this as well but haven't checked the sources. Supposedly a version of the Contendings myths has Anat and Astarte as Set's consorts. Reshep and Qadesh (may be spelling those wrong) also had some kind of association with Min at one point, I have heard. But again, I haven't checked it.  

[TeaDidikai]

Kashaku-Tatsu

Saying "I believe" is not a fallacy, it's stating that I don't believe in something.

Actually, it is a fallacy. It may be an internal fallacy, but it's a fallacy all the same.

Quote:

You can't falsify or mislead a belief.

Sure you can. I believe the sun rises in the east. Tomorrow, when I take my compass out, I shall take a reading to falsify this belief.

Likewise, there are elements of claims that can be objectively shown wrong.

Perhaps this is why you're having so much trouble. You have no grasp of objective reality and why it is more valid than subjective personal opinions.

Quote:

Further more, wasn't the ocean seen as chaos or "evil" for it being unknown with many monsters?

Nope. Not unto itself.

Quote:

They seem to press that point a lot on specials like National Geographic when they discuss different cultures.

You seem to be under the impression that somehow being in National Geographic suddenly makes it accurate. It doesn't. Being accurate makes a statement accurate.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Etherism doesn't have a concept of evil in the way most would see it. More like a concept of what makes you deserve to get the s**t kicked out of you (metaphysically) if the one who you do these deserving actions to so desires to do so. Laws of Mutual Respect and all.

And there's the Path of Decay and Entropy of the Self, but those are more consequences of not maintaining one's growth or doing things that would destroy and slow that growth. As well as stripping oneself of power and wisdom too.

None of that is really evil. But it is frowned upon. Fiercely. With fire. And sharp pointies.

Aaaaaand Etherism doesn't really have gods as the prime Aspects aren't actually gods. One needs to possess the unique quality that is represented by the Divinity Aspect (which is sort of recursively a deity, maybe, perhaps. XD Thanks to Tea, I'm having brain shattering metaphysics analysis going on in my head). There are rather powerful beings who I imagine some might worship like gods. Etherists seek to reach that level, called being an Aspect of the Self (a reflection of the power of their own unique Self), so that one is not tied to the limitations of an element.

I suppose in some views, some Etherists who have achieved the Aspect Level of the Self (especially the ones who concentrate on power more than growth and wisdom) could be considered evil, depending on what they do for that power and how they respond to broken Laws in the Laws of Mutual Respect (the responses can be harsh, sometimes viciously harsh)

And obviously one could consider a being with Divinity or a being that channels from Divinity (which is arguably a godmaking act and the main reason why I haven't tried to reach that Aspect, because I don't want to be a goddess, I want to be an Aspect of My Self) to be evil depending on their actions or philosophy.

But largely, the whole evil thing seems rather human centric and well, gods and Aspects are not human.  

[TeaDidikai]

My tradition has a concept of evil, but it isn't applied in a way most people could comprehend it easily. There are things that are impure- but aren't evil. There are things that are evil, but not always impure. Then there is the section of the Vin diagram where they overlap.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Yes, no, perhaps, and maybe. It depends on the perspective in which you look at things to be honest. I'm somewhat loathe to define any of the Gods I have current dealings with as "good" or "evil". Most of the reason for this comes down to simply most of them not considering themselves as falling under such ideals. They may do something that seems "good" or "evil" to me, but who am I to force my personal conceptions onto divine entities that don't approve? neutral

There are some I'd prefer to be able to avoid because I don't very much like the idea of being involved with entities of the nature in question, but at the end of the day, I don't really have much of a say in who gets to call dibs on what parts of me. Fortunately for me Celeblin has already called dibs on some parts I'd consider vital. ninja